Williams Trains (what happened to them since being acquired by Bachmann)

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

IC fan posted:

ENP1976 posted:

One more issue... Their rolling Stock.. sure it looks nice but it is basically old Kusan molds (some of it) and they are asking $76.00 for a boxcar. A 6464 style boxcar for $76.00 or I could find a Real postwar 6464 boxcar. Or a Atlas Trainman (much better trucks than the WBB) and for $50.00

I don’t understand the tactic of quoting only the supposed MSRP.  Nobody actually charges that.

You must not have been to many small hobby shops. Yes some small to mid size retailers DO charge MSRP. Our only hobbyshop[ left in "The Valley "- Trains and Lanes does. And if an item is HOT- they will charge above MSRP sometimes.

MSRP is SOP here in Southern California and the retailers seem to be doing OK overall.

The Williams engines and cars on my shelving in my layout room are great but I purchased at face value used from individuals over ten years ago, no dealer involved. Not very many dealers in Kentucky, then it now.

I would purchase another C&O streamline passenger O gauge set of I knew of a set  on the market. I would need to verify the model number of my set of course....

Another "W" brand manufacturer, Weaver.  

I need four trucks for two Weaver brand coal hoppers.  Where can I purchase s couple of days to make my hoppers complete?

Thanks! 

John d.

Over the last 4-5 years when I set up a12' by 9' layout I began buying mostly Williams engines including their GG!, a Pa steam engine, Pa sharknosed A-A set and finally a Santa Fe ABA passenger set. All but the last were from Trainworld at decent prices. My impression is that all the engines were from older stock on hand, especially the Santa Fe ABA (the B version was the last available from Mario's).  All have run flawlessly. I did pick up a Lionel Lion Chief remote controlled rectifier and find it a lot of fun operating an engine that way. All my recent passenger car are Williams aluminum cars (again Santa Fe and P.).  All (with one exception) were purchased from Trainland.

My only criticism of these aluminum passenger cars was the coupling. I bought one set of 5 cars on EBAY (a big mistake) with 3 of the cars damaged-the couplers had fallen off because of improper packing). I noticed a weakness of the couplers that were poorly soldered on. 

All in all I find Williams stuff much more reasonably priced and of good quality.

JohnF

Another good Williams engine is the semi scale size USRA 4-6-2 that was originally K-Line tooling. Patterned after a SRR PS4 with a street price of $260 think it is a good value.

sxe60 posted:

Jerry Williams did make relatively inexpensive trains compare to Lionel, but he also had some neat brass 3 rail trains made in Korea. I got back into O gauge trains with several of his Pacifics and Mikados from the mid 80's and many others from the 90's.  Williams and Right-of-Way Industries started the Brass movement in O Scale 3 Rail which Sunset's 3rd Rail is carrying on . I still have a Williams Masterpiece NYC Dreyfuss and love the detail said to be equivalent to Lionel's Smithsonian Dreyfuss.

Who remembers the big sell off of Williams trains in the early 90's?  Great prices O scale passenger cars and brass engines. Also, who else ordered the PRR T1 and S2 and waited 2 years for delivery? Finally, it was selling Williams Trains out of his bedroom that got Mike Wolf started in the business.

 

It was that big "sell off" that killed the Williams Brass steam engines. Not only did the sell off **** off collector's but the manufacturer Samhongsa as well! Samhongsa switched to Weaver models to sell it's product hence the two year delay for Williams to get another manufacturer of it's brass steamers. And that new manufacturer for Williams was shoddy at best.

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

sxe60 posted:

Jerry Williams did make relatively inexpensive trains compare to Lionel, but he also had some neat brass 3 rail trains made in Korea. I got back into O gauge trains with several of his Pacifics and Mikados from the mid 80's and many others from the 90's.  Williams and Right-of-Way Industries started the Brass movement in O Scale 3 Rail which Sunset's 3rd Rail is carrying on . I still have a Williams Masterpiece NYC Dreyfuss and love the detail said to be equivalent to Lionel's Smithsonian Dreyfuss.

Who remembers the big sell off of Williams trains in the early 90's?  Great prices O scale passenger cars and brass engines. Also, who else ordered the PRR T1 and S2 and waited 2 years for delivery? Finally, it was selling Williams Trains out of his bedroom that got Mike Wolf started in the business.

 

It was that big "sell off" that killed the Williams Brass steam engines. Not only did the sell off **** off collector's but the manufacturer Samhongsa as well! Samhongsa switched to Weaver models to sell it's product hence the two year delay for Williams to get another manufacturer of it's brass steamers. And that new manufacturer for Williams was shoddy at best.

The following info comes from the MTH Book and the Hubbard Williams Book.  Samhongsa was producing tinplate trains for Mike's Train House.  They (Samhongsa and Mike) took a hit when Williams dumped the product on the market.  Mike then terminated his Williams relationship.  Mike approached Frank's Roundhouse who brought Weaver into the deal.  The Weaver brass product was produced by Samhongsa through Mike's connection with the company and sold by those entities and I assume others.  Mike developed the packaging and promotional material.  The products procured by Mike grew to include the E8's, road diesels and passengers cars.  I think I have this right but other info is welcome.

ENP1976 posted:

One more issue... Their rolling Stock.. sure it looks nice but it is basically old Kusan molds (some of it) and they are asking $76.00 for a boxcar. A 6464 style boxcar for $76.00 or I could find a Real postwar 6464 boxcar. Or a Atlas Trainman (much better trucks than the WBB) and for $50.00

Williams cars are larger than 6464-type cars. They are the old AMT/KMT molds and are basically the size of RailKing cars.

There is no comparison between Williams cars and 6464-type cars.

I have the SD90's.  Run like Timex watches.  Run the Katy Heritage with the 2245C with portholes, and the 15' W AL cars.  OK, not exactly prototype.  But if Lionel could do a SD90 and Superliner in NYC.....!

I have done a W SP Heritage with Daylight cars.  I think UP had a like train when 1996 was introduced in Sacramento.

Good points about the New WBB prices. 

I can't see how they can justify their new Front Runner car having the same street price as a Lionel Scale 89' Auto carrier or 86' Boxcar.

John Sewell, I have the Lionel aluminum 6 car C&O streamline set (new in box) #19145-50, with silhouettes, which is similar to the Williams cars. If interested, please contact me at jcooper1973@comcast.net.  I can send photos.

I can't answer the question but I once had an early WBB Penn Central GP38-2. I sold it and regretted it. I bought it brand new at a community train show for around $150 or 200 bucks. It ran so smoothly and was so quiet. It just glided down the rails at very little power. I decided to go full command equipped but now wish I kept most of my conventional engines to run on the club layout.

I own a lot of older WBB that came from the seemingly-endless supply at Trainworld.  I'd love to see how much of that was in their warehouse, and they must have gotten it for pennies on the dollar.  Been happy with it.  Engines are great for my club's modular layout - no problems with power drops or rail gaps.

Haven't bought any of the more-recent stuff - even at the street price, it seems high to me. 

Since it took over Williams in 2007, Bachmann has set aside a lot of old tooling and introduced quite a few new models based on design materials on hand.

The excessively fat-hooded EMD SD45, the classic H24-66 Fairbanks-Morse Train Master and the nicely rendered Baldwin RF-16 Sharknose are among the diesels retired in recent years. Add to that the scale diecast Hudson (which Williams introduced in 1999) and the traditional-sized Hudson.

In their place, Bachmann added the General Electric 44-tonner and the EMD GP30, both of which Bachmann had introduced as part of its emerging Spectrum HO line circa 1990, and the Baldwin 4-6-0 steamer, which Bachmann has done in HO and N scale in recent years. That Ten Wheeler is particularly nice (and now one of my favorites in the pearl blue C&O scheme).

I have wondered what led to some of these decisions, which are also evident in the company’s freight and passenger car offerings. Some of the retired tooling wasn’t very old. Some was. Some were very close to scale proportions. Some weren’t.

Whatever the reason, Williams by Bachmann is a lot different than Williams was prior to 2007.

Regarding pricing, Williams by Bachmann gives dealers a lot more margin to work with than Lionel and MTH on both locomotives and freight cars.

As many are aware, it is illegal for a train manufacturer to set the retail price. That’s why the list price is called a manufacturer’s suggested retail price, or MRSP. It’s a baseline number from which the net price is determined, not a firm price.

The dealer discount can vary greatly, even between product lines from one manufacturer. For instance, MTH’s RailKing line of freight cars has a larger discount than the Premier line.

Bachmann offers a pretty large discount on locomotives. The new F59PHI lists for $529.99. Trainworld is selling it for $329.99. So the discount to Trainworld must be even deeper, and it’s possible Trainworld gets a better price for buying in volume.

Dealers are free to sell that model for whatever price they choose — $200, $300, $530 or $1,000 — but the market determines what the typical street value will be.

Discounts use to be larger across the board for model train products. The margins have shrunk over time. I am not at liberty to specify what the discounts to dealers are today, because I work at a hobby shop part time and that figure isn’t something I am authorized to share. But I can tell you that the days of 45 to 50 percent discounts are long gone for local hobby shops as it pertains to trains, based on my earlier exposure to the numbers at another hobby shop where I worked a quarter century ago.

Bachmann comes closest to offering deep discounts, though some would say it’s on artificial discount given how much the MRSP has ballooned in comparison to other manufacturers’ products.

John d Sewell posted:

The Williams engines and cars on my shelving in my layout room are great but I purchased at face value used from individuals over ten years ago, no dealer involved. Not very many dealers in Kentucky, then it now.

I would purchase another C&O streamline passenger O gauge set of I knew of a set  on the market. I would need to verify the model number of my set of course....

Another "W" brand manufacturer, Weaver.  

I need four trucks for two Weaver brand coal hoppers.  Where can I purchase s couple of days to make my hoppers complete?

Thanks! 

John d.

 

 

My Williams passenger C&O are the Sportsman cars numbered 2400, 2401, 2402, 2403. Streamline.

I'm not certain what follows after this 4 cars Williams set of any additional cars  which follows 2403?

Any input appreciated.

John d.

I have one of the K-Line operating cars with smooth operation that you don't need an operating track section for rather with a separate remote. WBB acquired the cars (except the milk car with platform) during K-Line's final demise and my suggestion is to stay away from them. The cars WBB makes now are $50 more than the original K-Line versions and the remote they have now is not backward compatible with the older K-Line versions

Bachmann list the Williams scale GG1 for $699.99 Trainworld list it for $299.99 that's a $400 discount. So my guess is there paying at the most $200 for a engine Bachmann says it has a suggested retail price of basically $700. This is why if you go on Ebay you find these same engines with a buy it now or even in some cases opening bid for $489. Not a bad racket if you can sell them for that. You still will make over $100 per unit, after paying ebay fees and shipping from Train world. 

I purchased a steam locomotive in the 2007-2008 time period. I sold it later on. I don't remember the sound quality but if it was an issue I would remember.

I just purchased a ?golden memories? Santa Fe blue F3. It is beautiful. It can pull. However its Tru-Blast is anything but. I was not able to hear engine sounds nor the horn over track noise. I gave the unit to a friend who makes repairs. All it took was a change to a normal speaker and now I can hear the locomotive across the room. Dan's comment on the original speaker - 'it is a piece of junk'.

Prior to Dan I did send the unit to Williams for 'repair'. They sent it back saying the sound output was normal. When I sent an email explaining the difference in sound volume between the speakers Williams sent back an 'ad' to purchase more locomotives. Do I like this locomotive - it is beautiful - yes. Will I buy another Williams - if they don't make changes - no

Joe

I love my Williams and Williams by Bachmann F-3's they run great and cost me much less than Lionel's equivalent.  The run awesome and I will hold on to them until I KB'it.  I would have to agree that their MSRP is too high and not very many shops out here in California are priced in accordance to their suggested prices.  The biggest drawback is that their locomotives are almost featureless with all of their locomotives not having and sort of command control and they still use sueth smoke units in which G guage is the only one left using those. They could easily add Bluetooth to their locomotives for starters and down the road add some fan driven smoke units to deisels and steamers.  As much as I love my Williams I cannot justify spending the amount most retailers want; since I can get Lionchief Plus for the same price or cheaper.  They may seel more trains is the start selling products that give their compition a run for their money.  True Blast Plus was a good start especially since itr requires no type of batteries.  I have had a lot of WBB locos over the years and they have always been good runners compared to my early MTH locomotives who have gone to the scrap yard.  This may be why WBB is keeping it simple as I have never had one die for no reason.   Anyone who has dissassembled a newer Lionchief Plus will tell you that the smoke units all have plastic smoke resevoirs and I would imagine are cheap to make so maybe they go do that too.

  The O guage trains out here in the West are almost non-existant except for a couple of Mom and Pop places with Macy's being the only mjor retailers to carry trains and that is only at Christmas.  We have Western Depot but their prices are much too high and as much as I would like to buy locally I cannot justify the extra 100.00-150.00 it would cost me to buy a WBB locomotive from them when Train World has much cheaper which includes shipping to the West coast.

I have several Williams and WBB units (F3's, FA1's, BL2, SD90 & GG1) and all run very well (smooth and quiet) after changing the motor wiring to series from its factory parallel setup.  TrueBlast2 sound was always a disappointment, but tolerable since it is seldom used.  My BL2 has the earlier OTT sound and that is much better IMO than TB2.  They are a great value for conventional use.  I think we'll eventually see WBB incorporate bluetooth control into their O gauge line like they did w/ HO and N gauge.

I agree with those that question Williams and now WBB continued use of such high cataloged MSRP.  Yes, the MSRP vs. savvy street price provides dealers a wide margin for possible "perceived" discounts for customers, but that inflated MSRP automatically eliminates the WBB brand from purchase consideration by those initially curious and contemplating potential hobbyists or relative newcomers who see that high list price and the WBB "limited" features as compared to more featured Lionchief or Railking offerings.  Not everyone considering a toy/hobby purchase performs an in-depth pricing/feature analysis.  Most who are not into trains will likely look to other multi-use entertainment products (xbox, playstation, RC car, drone) than consider the $430 list priced SD90 that with some time and effort can be found for $100 or less.  That "multi-use" and "time and effort" required is increasingly more a valued consumer purchase factor.  IMO, those dealers that attempt to charge MSRP on WBB are doing no one in this hobby any favors; both short and long term.  _{Fool me once...}

Black beauty:  Penn Central diesel passenger train:Locomotives are smooth, powerful pullers made by Williams or WBB.

I recently acquired a Williams F-7 ABA Northern Pacific Set with the Tru Blast sound. I have not been able to find out any information about this set. Can anyone tell me when it was made? I have not been able to find it in any of the catalogs on the Williams by Bachmann site.

A good and informative thread.    I am shifting to Williams NOS engines and this is extremely helpful.

@Pocono Jack posted:

I recently acquired a Williams F-7 ABA Northern Pacific Set with the Tru Blast sound. I have not been able to find out any information about this set. Can anyone tell me when it was made? I have not been able to find it in any of the catalogs on the Williams by Bachmann site.

The first mention I can find for a F7 Northern Pacific AA is in 1998 but the adv says 'electronic horn'.  In the        Fall 2000-Winter 2001 Catalog the AA set is $259.95 with a 'True Blast' digital horn. The 'B' for $99.95.  That is the closest I can get for the price listed on the box.

I have about 15 Williams engines, almost all D & H, and about 20 Williams aluminum passenger cars, all pre-Bachmann.  The most awesome engine is the Berkshire steamer which I bought new,  last year, from a fellow LCCA member, along with 6 Williams D & H aluminum passenger cars.  The engine is just beautiful and runs like a watch.  If you can find one, grab it.  They came in lots of road names, in limited runs. It is a steal at todays prices. My PA's and Sharks both have Tru Sounds, which works flawlessly. 

My first Williams locomotive was a 681 turbine:  I couldn’t resist the price... and the solid packaging was impressive as well!  It still runs like a champ, and with a Cab1 and Powermaster, the start up speeds are easy to control.  Second up was a 2332 GG1, which was a post-surgery “get well present” I bought for myself from Marty at Ma and Pa Junction.  Compared to the two Lionel GG1s I’ve owned in the past, it’s been flawless in every respect, especially in terms of paint and overall decoration.  I have a couple others — WP F3s, semi scale Hudson (mated to a Lionel Lines tender of course ) — that are solid runners in every respect.  While they may not be the “investment” that Lionel is often considered to be, they do seem to run with minimal tinkering... and the lack of modern electronics-related issues is a plus:  no need to program, just play!

@rtraincollector posted:

MA PA railroad train store, Marty had a train store in MD and he would goto Philly about once a week to Bachmann to pick up Williams by Bachmann before that he would go there in MD to get them.

MAPA = Maryland and Pennsylvania rail road. His store was called MAPA railroad if I remember correctly.

Marty owned Ma and Pa Junction.

I found that the Williams “red box” Diesel and electric PW replica  engines ran flawlessly, good representations of the Lionel postwar period.

the Bachman series (silver box”)while more diversified seem to have some features like plastic gears which are prone to fatigue and cracking according to some operators. Curious to know what your experiences with plastic gears and new Bachman/Williams.

Awesome uncomplicated nearly indestructible electric trains!

While I am not much of a collector of Williams trains post Bachmann era as my interests have changed, I have always appreciated the quality of Williams Products.  I credit Williams with finally convincing me to go to O scale when I purchased an Amtrak FP45 in 2003.  It wasn't scale, but it was just nice and massive and I finally got the bug to make a change from HO to O.  My impression of O prior to that they were just junk toys as my only experience with O was MPC era Lionel that my cousin had.  I have been into scale trains since I got my first real layout at age 12 which is was 40 years ago.  That shortened pudgy FP45 just felt more real with it's heft and size. 

I enjoy the GG1s, have around 10 of the various brass offerings, about five diesels, a Metroliner set, and several sets of 20" cars.  The most recent acquisition is a pair of Superliner Sleepers.  I have prototypical trucks to put on them, plan on doing some interiors and generally upgrading them to add to the back of my El-Cap cars for the fun of it.  If that works, I'll be upgrading my single level cars which are very nice aluminum extrusions to use as a starting point.

As for WBB, Bachmann still make a good product across all scales.  They have come a long way from being the joke of cheap HO and N trains up into the late 80's to where they are today.  I see their business model not being much different than Lionel or MTH.  Offer a limited number of their list of products in any given year to keep numbers up, while keeping people interested by offering some models every 2-3 years based on existing tooling.  That is the industry now for O.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but the F59 is K-Line tooling correct?

The new offerings are definitely not the Williams of old.  They are much more accurate to prototype locomotives which is in line with their smaller scale product.  The Chuffington product line while initially overpriced was a good marketing idea for kids.     

While not scale, I will hold onto my NJT GP38 for a long time.  That is not an easy one to find.  Still looking for the NJT E60 too even though I expect to see the 3rd Rail version go into production within the next 5 years.

@Craignor posted:

Marty owned Ma and Pa Junction.

There's a blast from the past...Marty and Ma and Pa Junction. I bought many a Williams loco from him. Still remember the first. Western  Maryland Fireball GP9 in a red box.

Just bought a WBB Burlington GP-30 from Mario's. In about 2013, the price for the same loco was about $100 higher. My wait was inadvertent, but worthwhile. So, it looks like older inventory is getting cleared out, to be replaced by what? BTW I indicated on my order that I was directed to Mario's through their post on our forum. Important, because business people need to know where their customers come from. And if companies like Mario's support our forum, we benefit.

Mark

@johnstrains posted:

There's a blast from the past...Marty and Ma and Pa Junction. I bought many a Williams loco from him. Still remember the first. Western  Maryland Fireball GP9 in a red box.

Marty was a great guy.  I had a standing order with him.  Any Western Maryland or B&O locomotives that Williams made I'd take 2 of each.  Marty would hand deliver them to my wife at her work place and she'd write him a check.  Yes Marty was quite a guy who knew the value of good customer service.

I picked up 3 of the Virginian rectifiers from Trainworld about 13 years ago. Nice detail, amazing pullers. Put anything behind them and push the lever forward on the ZW and off the train goes. They don't have the features my Lion Chief+ locos have but they are flawless in operation.

I also have the Santa FE F3's which easily pull 8 aluminum streamliners. In the mid 1990's when I got back into trains you could pick up the Williams products at very reasonable prices while the corresponding used Lionel models were cost prohibitive for me. I bought a ton of stuff from Marty (Ma and Pa) at Greenberg shows on Long Island. I had excellent replicas of the Lionel trains I wanted as a kid at a price that was a fraction of the cost of postwar.

Train prices are on the upswing. The Lion Chief+ models have gotten particularly expensive over the last two years. They have gone from the $200-300 range to the $500 range.

I also miss the Industrial line of freight cars. I have 20 of the Virginian hoppers and they couple and roll better than anything else I have.

For now, I am on the sidelines as a buyer, but very happy with all of my Lionel, MTH, Williams and K-Line stuff.