WWII interesting train story

I read they used explosives shaped to look like coal to put in the locos tenders.  Good story but like so many, I don't think it ha a big impact on the war.

Interesting story. Thanks for sharing.

jim pastorius posted:

I read they used explosives shaped to look like coal to put in the locos tenders.  Good story but like so many, I don't think it ha a big impact on the war.

Yes, I had heard that story about the fake coal before, too. 

Tom 

There were rumors in the Civil War that Confederates had put bombs in fuel used by steamboats.  There were rumors that was the cause of the Sultana blowing up right after the war.

As for the fake coal, I used to have a OSS operative manual which listed that as a sabotage device (I foolishly sold it when I narrowed my collecting focus). I have never found anything on how often (if ever) it got used.

Ok, but wouldn't the people shoveling the coal notice the rats and take them out?  I can't imagine having rats in the firebox with the coal is a good idea.  I'll buy the fake coal idea.  How much explosive can you fit in a dead rat?  What do you do, take it's guts out and sew it back up?  Wouldn't  that be noticeable?   Not so sure I buy the rat story.

William 1 posted:

Ok, but wouldn't the people shoveling the coal notice the rats and take them out?

No, why would they?

 I can't imagine having rats in the firebox with the coal is a good idea.

Why not? With a fire burning at over 2500 degrees, the "rats" , nor any other trash doesn't last long.

 I'll buy the fake coal idea.  How much explosive can you fit in a dead rat?

You would be surprised.

 What do you do, take it's guts out and sew it back up?

That would sure work.

 Wouldn't  that be noticeable?  

Probably not.

Not so sure I buy the rat story.

Guess you need to read up more on WWII history.

The story wasn't some myth, it was documented at the British Military Museum and was part of the archives about the SOE (Special Operations Executive) and the loony genius who came up with a whole number of seemingly crazy plans, and it was documented they actually got the rats to the underground in France, the rats were put into coal storage areas but were discovered. In wartime all kinds of crazy things are tried, including things like plans (if not actual operations) to flood Nazi Germany with pornography , or plans to try and spike Hitler's food with female hormones to somehow neutralize him.  

One of the reasons for operations like these is kind of like POW's escaping from POW camps, the idea is to tie up time and resources that otherwise could be used in direct fighting. If they have to search coal bunkers to see if they have explosive stuff in them (the fake coal was a pretty cool idea), or if you plant the idea that almost anything is suspect, the enemy spends a lot of time and effort on things that slow down the 'real' war effort. There is a modern parallel in terrorism, one of the ideas of terrorist acts is not only to try and paralyze people with fear, but also it is to disrupt the economy, with time and money being spent on increased security, tracking down a lot of false alarms, etc. Think about the cost in time and money with the security we have on airplane travel compared to pre 9/11, think about the cost of all the extra hardware cops have now, and you get the kind of idea of what these kind of plans were meant to do. It is why underground movements in places like France could have an outsize impact, the resistance in France in reality was pretty small (the idea that half of France was somehow part of the underground was ridiculous for example, the actual underground was a tiny fraction of the population),same with other countries, but even though small in number groups like the underground in France, the Partisans in what was Yugoslavia, had outsize impact.

In the mean time the Germans were designing and building weapons that were  way ahead of the Allies dead rats and fake coal. V2 rockets, V1 buzz bombs, Me 262 jet plus others, the MP44  assault rifle, the MG42 machine gun, the FG42  para automatic rifle, the 88, Panther tank,  the panzerfaust,  and many other  toys under development. And they had some pretty neat steam engines plus diesels.

The explosive materials in WWII were limited to variations of TNT. I am not certain, but I do not believe they had the more compact C-4 at that time? Therefore, a lump of coal the typical size for a steam loco would not leave much room for a destructive charge. It was more likely a propaganda "weapon", meant to waste their time in added security measures as stated above.

The German technological advances were amazing. They also developed the organo phosphate compounds, more commonly known as nerve agents prior to WWII (1935). By the way, it was mainly the US and British counter-intelligence that kept the Germans from deploying these deadly agents. This was fortunate for the allies as there was NO antidote for nerve agents at that time. The use of atropine and paraaldoxime methiodide (PAM) came later. By the way ALL the nerve agents (sarin, soman, VX, et al) are liquids and NOT gases though the dispersed mist and vapors are toxic. I was a Batallion Chemical Staff NCO and took 16 weeks of CBR training at Ft. McClellan, AL (1962-63) while serving in the US Army. Prior to enlisting, I also had a total of 5 years of chemistry, hence my proclivity to attend CBR School!

Tinplate Art posted:

The explosive materials in WWII were limited to variations of TNT. I am not certain, but I do not believe they had the more compact C-4 at that time? Therefore, a lump of coal the typical size for a steam loco would not leave much room for a destructive charge. It was more likely a propaganda "weapon", meant to waste their time in added security measures as stated above.

You might want to Google "WWII explosives", as you will be amazed at the VERY powerful and compact plastic explosives that were available.

HOT WATER: THANKS for that info!  :-) I was not sure about the development time frame of the "plastic" explosives! I personally trained to use C-4 and also detonator cord during my US Army years (1962-1965).

jim pastorius posted:

In the mean time the Germans were designing and building weapons that were  way ahead of the Allies dead rats and fake coal. V2 rockets, V1 buzz bombs, Me 262 jet plus others, the MP44  assault rifle, the MG42 machine gun, the FG42  para automatic rifle, the 88, Panther tank,  the panzerfaust,  and many other  toys under development. And they had some pretty neat steam engines plus diesels.

I'll see your toys and raise you one Manhattan Project.

jim pastorius posted:

In the mean time the Germans were designing and building weapons that were  way ahead of the Allies dead rats and fake coal. V2 rockets, V1 buzz bombs, Me 262 jet plus others, the MP44  assault rifle, the MG42 machine gun, the FG42  para automatic rifle, the 88, Panther tank,  the panzerfaust,  and many other  toys under development. And they had some pretty neat steam engines plus diesels.

Yeah, but they didn't really make a lot of that stuff. People make such a big deal about German Innovations during the big one, but what they don't understand is how little of these weapons were actually built.

People also make such a big deal about German armor. Yes, they had thicker armor plate and in many cases better weapons mounted on them, but they were comically over-engineered and often broke down. In fact, the field manual for driving a King Tiger tank strongly suggested the drivers don't make unnecessary turns of any kind. It even went so far as to say driving through something was preferable to driving around it as long as it didn't ground the tank.

People often say that if the war had lasted another year too, Germany would have had all these Wonder Weapons that they had on the books. Frankly, I sort of doubt that. Besides, people seem to forget all the stuff that the Americans were working on. If the war had gone on another year or so, American troops would have had Man portable anti-tank weapons that could have taken out German tanks, and American tanks which could easily go toe-to-toe with the best German armor. The Pershing tank, for example, did get into action at the tail end of the war in Germany. And they could dance with a panther all day long, and stand up very well for itself.

Another thing people don't really seem to get his most of the German military was horsepower, not mechanized. They had entire divisions of horse pulled artillery in basic wagons. They're also one of the Nations that fielded Soldiers with primary weapon which was bolt action. In fact, the United States was the only Army that issued its Soldiers with a primary weapon that was semi-automatic.

The German tankers were always keen on saying that one of their tanks was as good as for of one of ours, but the problem was we always had five. I think that's reasonably unfair, as the Sherman was a very good tank for Mobility, if not for crew protection. The Germans didn't have anything nearly as reliable, or as fast. The Russians, however, had an excellent tank in the t-34 which was a good balance of both.

In other words, the axis forces did have some stuff that was to be envied, but in the end, good production and Superior numbers completely overwhelmed them. But that is not to say that those Superior numbers came with inferior equipment. Also, the structure of command in the military was far superior in the American and British armies than it was the Germans. The noncommissioned officers in most of the Allied Nations had far better training to take charge. The Germans had officers doing things that sergeants would do when most of the Allied Nations. That, and the incapability to maintain their logistical support units in their primary role, and not turning them into infantryman at the drop of a hat when things got bad, severely handicapped the German war effort.

The Germans were close to developing a nuclear weapon but fortunately were stymied in their efforts by superior allied intelligence and action. Also there is evidence their main nuclear physicist, the esteemed Werner Heisenberg, had second thoughts about developing such an awesome weapon and slowed down, as it were, the process. The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle is a cornerstone of quantum and particle physics.

My late uncle, a decorated WWII vetearn who saw action in North Africa, Anzio and D-Day, often remarked the German's were very much weakened in their officer-orientated command structure when an officer was taken out!  The NCO's, many times, seemed incapable of continuity in their command structure after such an event.

jim pastorius posted:

In the mean time the Germans were designing and building weapons that were  way ahead of the Allies dead rats and fake coal. V2 rockets, V1 buzz bombs, Me 262 jet plus others, the MP44  assault rifle, the MG42 machine gun, the FG42  para automatic rifle, the 88, Panther tank,  the panzerfaust,  and many other  toys under development. And they had some pretty neat steam engines plus diesels.

Kind of comparing apples to oranges, the dead rats and exploding coal were part of the war effort, but it wasn't exactly like we were talking about a third world country, special operations like that were a separate effort and didn't distract from the other innovations going on. My dad used to go nuts when he heard people extolling the 'superior' technology of the Germans in WWII, as if the Allies were fighting with fabric biplanes and wooden guns.

Among other things, it leaves out that both the UK and the US at the time the war started were starting from way behind, in large part thanks to the disarmament movements in both countries in the 1930's, especially but not limited to the America First movement that prevented the US from having much of a military (at the time of the first big war games in 1939, the US literally couldn't field a full division anywhere, all were undermanned and underequipped). The Germans were planning for the next war from the time the ink wasn't dry on Versailles, many of the 'advanced' aircraft were designed in the 1920's, and even under Weimar they were setting up the capability to produce these weapons when the time came. They then had pretty much the entire 1930's to develop these weapons, the program that developed the V1 and V2  started in the mid 1930's. The amazing part is how the allies, especially the US but not exactly leaving out the British, did what they did with their backs against the wall. Among other things:

-The Spitfire and Hurricane fighters with the Rolls Royce engine that basically beat the German Luftwaffe with a relatively small air fleet in the battle of Britain

-Radar, developed by the British initially, that the US serialized into microwave radar that could be used on aircraft

-Systems to break up and confuse the German radio direction finding they were using on their bombers

-The P51 Mustang that went from drawing board to production in 90 days, and in its later forms once they have the Merlin engine went through the luftwaffe like a dog through a pound of meat. 

-Going, especially in the US, where because of the Depression our manufacturing capability was decimated, and literally in the span of a couple of years creating a juggernaut that supplied a large part of the allied effort. At the time of Pearl Harbor in Dec 1941 we had 6 aircraft carriers, within a couple of years it was several hundred, and that is repeated with aircraft, where at the start of WWII the US air force still had biplanes and such, modern fighters and bombers were in short supply, to where they produced thousands a month....not to mention designing these to be built by people with little to no experience with manufacturing, which meant building in pretty generous tolerances and such. 

-JATO technology that allowed transports and bombers to take off with huge payloads (Robert Goddard worked on this). 

-German tanks were technologically superior, but they also had big problems, they couldn't be produced in numbers (the Tiger was a pretty rare tank in the field, despite all the hoopla about them), and both the Panzer and Tiger were heavy as heck, and you try bridging for something that weighed 70 tons. The allied tanks were designed differently, they were made to be mobile artillery and could be produced in numbers (shoot out a Sherman, and you had probably 10 more waiting to replace it). 

-And of course, the code breaking both in the US and UK that made such a huge difference, the development of the US "blue box" that broke the Japanese codes, and the Ultra project that came up with the Collusus that allowed breaking German U boat traffic (despite myth, they never had much luck with the Wehrmact, and limited success with Luftwaffe traffic) and both had major impact on the war (The Germans had some capability, but because we knew when they broke our codes, we could find an excuse to change them, limiting the damage). 

This is just a brief list, and most of this was developed after WWII broke out, which is pretty amazing. Going from nothing to a plethora of innovations in a couple of years was a pretty amazing feat. 

I laughed at referring to German weapons as "toys". In all the books I have read on WW II and vets I have talked to, I have never, ever heard them refer to German weapons as "toys".  Some of you have been believing too much Allied propaganda.

bigkid posted:

Was watching the travel Channel's "Mysteries from the Museum", and they had this story out of the British Military Museum. They had this group, the Special Operations Executive, that came up with all these wild special operations against the Nazi's, including things like exploding logs and of course operations against trains. One of the most interesting was a plot to use exploding rats. ......

Interesting stuff.

p51 posted:

......  They're also one of the Nations that fielded Soldiers with primary weapon which was bolt action. In fact, the United States was the only Army that issued its Soldiers with a primary weapon that was semi-automatic. ......

Minor point .... there were Army and Marine units in the Pacific (like my Dad's)  that used Springfield bolt actions well into the war.

jim pastorius posted:

I laughed at referring to German weapons as "toys". In all the books I have read on WW II and vets I have talked to, I have never, ever heard them refer to German weapons as "toys".  Some of you have been believing too much Allied propaganda.

Nobody would call weapons of wars toys, not with the destruction even the more simpler weapons can perform, and when we discuss these weapons it is always with the realization that they were meant for one thing, to kill and maim other people.  The funny part about war is that often those coming into a war with "the best technology" don't necessarily win, going into WWII the Mitsubishi Zero was a better airplane than anything the US had, for example, and Germany going into WWII had a highly mechanized army that had more than a few superior weapons systems, the 88's, the Panzer tank and so forth, the dive bombers and the like, and the tactics they used were pretty new. Often in war, though, it is the ability to innovate that makes a difference, and in WWII a lot of that went to the allies, pure and simple, and in how they used the technology, with the US especially it was in not just the technology, but the ability to produce huge numbers. Standard tank battles were generally fought with the idea of heavily armored tanks trying to kill each other, and new tactics involved, not just the bazooka, but in things like the tank killer like the M36 (my dad was part of such a crew, they were the first battalion to get the M36), it went against tank warfare, rather than being heavily armored, it was relatively lightly armored, but it was mobile and quick, and could harass and knock out enemy tanks at a greater range and could get behind something like a tiger and knock it out. 

It is always amazing to read of these things, but lest we think of any of this as toys or whatnot, we also have to remember that a good part of the world was destroyed during WWII and as many as 50 million people died during it, and in the end how good someone's weapons was pales in face of the human cost of it. 

The Zero was not a "better" plane than anything the US had:  the F4F was a match for it in many flight regimes but not in others.  The final total, however, shows many, many more Zeroes died to Wildcats than the other way around. 

Which Panzer tank?  The German army was anything but mechanized, especially early on.

Too many people think that the way to compare weapons systems is to look up the stats in a book and award the accolades to the higher numbers.  The real world doesn't work that way.

the Zero was a faster more maneuverable longer ranged fighter BECAUSE the Japanese planes did not have armor protection that our planes had.Many even went so far as n to take out the radios, and many of the pilots didn't wear parachutes for the saving in weight.Once our pilots developed tactics to use these short comings to their advantage, our pilots were able to more than hold their own against the Zero, and once even better aircraft went into production...the Hellcat,Corsair,Lightning,Thunderbolt and Mustang, they were easy pray, especially after the quality of the Japanese pilots declined with the loss of so many veteran pilots after The Battle of Midway. 

jim pastorius posted:

Good story but like so many, I don't think it ha a big impact on the war.

It put the Germans in the occupied countries on edge just a little bit more, once they found out. Some could argue that edge was worth the effort.

It worked the opposite,too. Just look up "Operation Pastorius", to see what the Germans tried in the US, which combined with the "Operation Drumbeat" U-boat offensive just beforehand, really made Americans jumpy through most of the war.

Keep in mind, this could have effected railroad history, as a few railroad targets were on the German's list for the Pastorius groups, including Horseshoe Curve. 

This thread is a long way from trains now. Is this the WWII weapons board?
I forget.... who won?

This thread did get derailed! LOL

Did we have American & Canadian engineman running engines in Europe during  WW2 in the liberated countries?

I can confirm at least one US Railroad Battalion WWII vet that told me accounts of his railroading in France and Germany. Not only engineers, but also track workers, signal maintainers, as well as brakemen and switchmen worked to rebuild railroads in Europe.  He carried a custom wood cane with all of his various railroad experiences both in Western North Carolina and in Europe wood-burned into the cane.

Yep, the allied armies had huge numbers of solider railroaders overseas in WW2...

You can find a lot of neat pictures online.  One that I liked was a Davenport diesel switcher being unloaded off a LST in France shortly after D-Day.

There was an article in a Classic Trains special issue a few years ago ("Trains of the 1940s") that detailed a Nazi sabotage plot in 1942.  As mentioned in an earlier post, the plot was called 'Operation Pastorius' and involved German U-boats putting teams of saboteurs ashore in the U.S. with training and plans to disable rail  and transportation infrastructure.  Notable targets included the Hellgate Bridge, Horseshoe Curve, Penn Station, and (interesting to me) the McAlpine locks on the Ohio River near Louisville, KY.

The tie-in to this discussion is that the German agents had been provided with fake lumps of coal containing explosives that were designed to detonate in a locomotive's firebox.  The Classic Trains article contains a photo of these fake coal explosives.  Interestingly, the plot was uncovered by the FBI and foiled before it could be carried out.  Several of the German agents were executed for their roles, while others were incarcerated and eventually repatriated to Germany after the war.

The magazine is still available from Kalmbach publishing:

https://kalmbachhobbystore.com...l-issue/vt-cs6141101

and there is an article about Operation Pastorius on Wikipedia at:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...on_Pastorius#Mission

Scott Griggs

Louisville, KY

sgriggs posted:

There was an article in a Classic Trains special issue a few years ago ("Trains of the 1940s") that detailed a Nazi sabotage plot in 1942.  As mentioned in an earlier post, the plot was called 'Operation Pastorius' and involved German U-boats putting teams of saboteurs ashore in the U.S. with training and plans to disable rail  and transportation infrastructure.  Notable targets included the Hellgate Bridge, Horseshoe Curve, Penn Station, and (interesting to me) the McAlpine locks on the Ohio River near Louisville, KY.

The tie-in to this discussion is that the German agents had been provided with fake lumps of coal containing explosives that were designed to detonate in a locomotive's firebox.  The Classic Trains article contains a photo of these fake coal explosives.  Interestingly, the plot was uncovered by the FBI and foiled before it could be carried out.  Several of the German agents were executed for their roles, while others were incarcerated and eventually repatriated to Germany after the war.

The magazine is still available from Kalmbach publishing:

https://kalmbachhobbystore.com...l-issue/vt-cs6141101

and there is an article about Operation Pastorius on Wikipedia at:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...on_Pastorius#Mission

 

Scott Griggs

Louisville, KY

there was no need for Nazi saboteurs to destroy Pennsylvania station. We took care of that job ourselves. 

THANK GOODNESS for the FBI then, and especially now, in these times of terror attacks!  They insulate, and protect us from threats to our way of life. Kudos to the many brave men and women who serve in this professional law enforcement bureau!  

Actually; I believe one of the German saboteurs who had lived for awhile in the US; had second thoughts and turned himself in to the FBI. In the process; he revealed the plan and identities of the other German saboteurs to the FBI.

This wasn't good detective work by the FBI; it was simply good luck.

Curt

During WWII a German sub put some people on the beach out on LI, I believe Amaganset. They walked to the train station and got the ticket agent suspicious as in a small town like that he knew everyone. Called the authorities and they never made it into NYC. 

juniata guy posted:

Actually; I believe one of the German saboteurs who had lived for awhile in the US; had second thoughts and turned himself in to the FBI. In the process; he revealed the plan and identities of the other German saboteurs to the FBI.

This wasn't good detective work by the FBI; it was simply good luck.

Curt

Exactly.  One of the group had called the FBI, was thought to be crazy or a crank caller, so he went to Washington, D.C. to the FBI in person.  They still didn't believe him until he showed the money Germany fronted them to carry out the operation, as well as the details he had regarding it.

juniata guy posted:

Actually; I believe one of the German saboteurs who had lived for awhile in the US; had second thoughts and turned himself in to the FBI. In the process; he revealed the plan and identities of the other German saboteurs to the FBI.

This wasn't good detective work by the FBI; it was simply good luck.

Yeah, nobody at the FBI believed the guy until he pulled out a stack of cash he'd ben given before getting onto the sub. He'd decided almost immediately after landing in the US that he'd turn himself in and foil the plot. He got another from the group in on it (lucky for him, as those two were the only ones not taken to the electric chair) and they rolled on the rest. Once the war was over, they booted them back across the Atlantic along with all the other Germans we had that we didn't want after the war.

They were not well received in Germany after the war for pretty obvious reasons.

p51 posted:

jim pastorius posted:

In the mean time the Germans were designing and building weapons that were  way ahead of the Allies dead rats and fake coal. V2 rockets, V1 buzz bombs, Me 262 jet plus others, the MP44  assault rifle, the MG42 machine gun, the FG42  para automatic rifle, the 88, Panther tank,  the panzerfaust,  and many other  toys under development. And they had some pretty neat steam engines plus diesels.

Yeah, but they didn't really make a lot of that stuff. People make such a big deal about German Innovations during the big one, but what they don't understand is how little of these weapons were actually built.

People also make such a big deal about German armor. Yes, they had thicker armor plate and in many cases better weapons mounted on them, but they were comically over-engineered and often broke down. In fact, the field manual for driving a King Tiger tank strongly suggested the drivers don't make unnecessary turns of any kind. It even went so far as to say driving through something was preferable to driving around it as long as it didn't ground the tank.

People often say that if the war had lasted another year too, Germany would have had all these Wonder Weapons that they had on the books. Frankly, I sort of doubt that. Besides, people seem to forget all the stuff that the Americans were working on. If the war had gone on another year or so, American troops would have had Man portable anti-tank weapons that could have taken out German tanks, and American tanks which could easily go toe-to-toe with the best German armor. The Pershing tank, for example, did get into action at the tail end of the war in Germany. And they could dance with a panther all day long, and stand up very well for itself.

Another thing people don't really seem to get his most of the German military was horsepower, not mechanized. They had entire divisions of horse pulled artillery in basic wagons. They're also one of the Nations that fielded Soldiers with primary weapon which was bolt action. In fact, the United States was the only Army that issued its Soldiers with a primary weapon that was semi-automatic.

The German tankers were always keen on saying that one of their tanks was as good as for of one of ours, but the problem was we always had five. I think that's reasonably unfair, as the Sherman was a very good tank for Mobility, if not for crew protection. The Germans didn't have anything nearly as reliable, or as fast. The Russians, however, had an excellent tank in the t-34 which was a good balance of both.

In other words, the axis forces did have some stuff that was to be envied, but in the end, good production and Superior numbers completely overwhelmed them. But that is not to say that those Superior numbers came with inferior equipment. Also, the structure of command in the military was far superior in the American and British armies than it was the Germans. The noncommissioned officers in most of the Allied Nations had far better training to take charge. The Germans had officers doing things that sergeants would do when most of the Allied Nations. That, and the incapability to maintain their logistical support units in their primary role, and not turning them into infantryman at the drop of a hat when things got bad, severely handicapped the German war effort.

Very good points. The problem that Germany had was that the U.S. could build stuff faster than the Axis could find and destroy it. Sherman Tanks, Jeeps, Trucks, Liberty Ships, and even aircraft. Kaiser would pit his construction crews against each other to build Liberty Ships with bonuses going to the winning crew (and the requirement they share how they did it with the other crews). Legend has it they got one built in just over 96 hours.

As to some of the advanced weaponry, Germany didn't have the manufacturing capability to get the 262's and Comets (rocket-powered fighter that had about a 35% chance of exploding on take-off) produced in large numbers. If you saw Captain America, some of Hydra's aircraft were straight out of "Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe" which were based on some of the plans they found after the war.

The German plot was foiled by the member from the group landing on Long Island, and turned in the group landing in Florida. The money they had was bills no longer in issue, and the Coast Guard sentry the Long Island group met, got their stash of explosives found.

The Russian war effort was kept going by RS1 diesels in Iran and Iraq funneling war material through the region to Russia, far exceeding the war materials shipped via sea to Murmansk and Vladivostok. If you search for War Time diesels, there will be pictures of Army marked trains with the new RS1. It got VERY little press but was very instrumental in keeping the Russia fronts moving and relieving some of the pressure on our fronts in Italy and France.

Many, many American, British, Canadian and commonwealth railroaders spent the war running military trains throughout the world.