Y3's Shipping

Give it a little time, because of Christmas falling so close to the distributors receiving their shipments, shipping from the distributors is a little messed up.  My LHS got part of his Lionel shipment last week and is expecting the remainder this week.

Yippie, my PRR Y3 is shipping to have the electronics stripped out of it.  When I finally get it the beast it will run on DC.  Perhaps a hacksaw to the eletronic coupler to install a Kadee #5 and we'll be all set.  Is anyone else going DC or DCC with this thing?

Tom Stoltz

in  Maine

Just for fun...

A passing Martian war machine took this picture of the Y3's overhang on 20" radius track.  The Y3 handles it very well, thankyouverymuch!

Rusty

As much as I would like to buy a Santa Fe U33, a Great Northern Challenger, a BNSF SD70, and a Union Pacific Y3, I won't buy a single one from Lionel because I run DC. It does not make sense to me to pay for and then cut out the electronics (the parts that seem to cause the most problems in the first place) because Lionel is unwilling to offer either a stripped version or a simple switch to enable DC direct to the motors and LEDs. I'll wait for MTH to offer their versions of the same locomotives.

TOKELLY: The SD 70 will run on pure DC as shipped.  To enable DC on the 2nd generation U33 or the Y3; I can arrange this with the CURRENT electronics package.

I won't buy a single one from Lionel because I run DC. It does not make sense to me to pay for and then cut out the electronics (the parts that seem to cause the most problems in the first place) because Lionel is unwilling to offer either a stripped version or a simple switch to enable DC direct to the motors and LEDs.

I do agree with you sentiment, I dislike proprietary systems myself.  It’s not necessarily that they are good or bad, but they are rather limiting.  They get you sucked into one brand and that’s the whole idea isn’t it?  I doubt Lionel cares that much about the loss of a few sales compared to what they get once someone is hooked.  Look at all the extra stuff you have to buy to use their system.  It’s as bad as Apple iStuff.

My hope is systems like SHS offered will win out in the long run.  I run DC now, but someday maybe I’ll get into DCC.  But even with DCC what happens when all the electronics is 20 years old?  A simple DC system will still be working after many years.  Does anyone have a guess about the life expectancy of these proprietary systems or DCC?

Don’t lock me in,

Tom Stoltz

In  Maine

And what extra gobblie gook do you need to do this?  I’m having my Y3 gutted on Monday.  If there’s a magic DC button inside the engine, that would be cool; but on the other hand if that function has to be programmed with more Lionel stuff… No thanks.

Tom Stoltz

in  Maine

SHS actually offered their locomotives 4 ways: DC, AC, DCC or Locomatic (which was a pretty mediocre analog sound/control system.)

DCC's been around since the 1980's, around 30 years by my count.  It's based on a system Lenz had for Marklin at the time.  Seems to be working well enough.  I don't think it's going away anytime soon.  If anything, DCC functionality and reliability has improved over the years.

Before you think I'm a DCC cheerleader, I only added DCC to my railroad about 5 years ago.  I wired it into my block control system by replacing one of my throttles.  I select DC or DCC with the block toggles. 

For the most part, I still run conventional DC, but opt for DCC on locomotives that have the 8-pin plug or it comes already installed.  I've got locomotives that will very likely never have a decoder installed.

The only problems I've had with DCC were due to my own lack of initial familiarity.  The more I learn, the more I like it.

Rusty

Jon,

That's good to know about the SD70s. I suspect that future steam locomotives may also use the same flexible electronic system. In the past I have disconnected internal  wiring on some of my Lionel American Flyer locomotives in order to get those units to run on DC. The latest models are far more sophisticated, but I'm sure I can figure out how to rewire them. However, that means disabling some terrific features such as Railsounds that I would have to pay for and never use. (From what I understand, at some point the sound effects that were such a thrill at first can become annoying if one enjoys running and switching trains for more than an hour at a time.) The latest S gauge models from Lionel are beautifully modelled and very tempting, but I'm reluctant to pay a premium for features I won't or can't use. If there were simpler versions with only smoke and directional lighting, I wouldn't hesitate a second in placing an order.

I'm not sure what the issue is here? Jon has offered to help upgrade the existing engines to run on DC if you prefer. That was really generous of him IMHO. 

I'm not sure why people think that just because they want DC that that means that a DC model would be less expensive. All of the tooling, components, and production are setup for the Legacy electronics. At this point it would likely cost more to offer a DC only version that very few people would be interested in. 

Here is how I look at it... We can't be that picky in S. where else can you buy an S scale Y3 that looks this good, sounds this good, and runs this good for this price? You will pay thousands more for a brass articulated that may not run as good, and won't have sound or smoke. I guess I don't understand the problem with getting more for less. Especially since Jon offered to update it.

If I wanted a DC Y3, I would take Jon up on his offer to upgrade. That way I wouldn't ruin the value of the engine by gutting it. Just my 2cents.

I'm not sure what the issue is here? Jon has offered to help upgrade the existing engines to run on DC if you prefer. That was really generous of him IMHO.

He has yet to say how much more this ‘upgrade’ will cost.  It is hard to see how selling me something that I don’t want is generous.  I don’t know what the electronics in the Y3 cost, but I would imagine well over $100 and now if I want it DC I need to buy something else to program the electronics away.  How is that less expensive than stripping the electronics out?

 I'm not sure why people think that just because they want DC that that means that a DC model would be less expensive. All of the tooling, components, and production are setup for the Legacy electronics. At this point it would likely cost more to offer a DC only version that very few people would be interested in.

For what has been available in S gauge, from either AM or SHS, the DC versions have always been the least expensive.  I think we need to compare the Lionel system to DCC equipped engines.  I can’t tell you how much more the DCC is, but I’m going to guess something like $150 or more.  And you don’t have to buy it.

As for interest in DC… S gauge has been around since 1946.  The ACG Flyer motor will run on AC or DC.  Actually, they perform much better on DC and ACG himself tried DC.  Had the silicon diode been available in the late forties, you can bet his line would have been DC only.  DCC has been available in S for something like 30 years.  How long has this Lionel S gauge, proprietary system been out?  I know the Mikado had it.  I haven’t been paying attention, but isn’t the Mike the first and that was about 5 years ago?

Here is how I look at it... We can't be that picky in S. where else can you buy an S scale Y3 that looks this good, sounds this good, and runs this good for this price? You will pay thousands more for a brass articulated that may not run as good, and won't have sound or smoke. I guess I don't understand the problem with getting more for less. Especially since Jon offered to update it.

I’m not sure asking for something that is the industry standard is picky especially when the non-standard is way more expensive.

Jon has yet to give us his intent on this ‘upgrade’, but I would be surprised if he is going to come to my layout and perform the magic for free.  Therefore, gutting it becomes the least expensive option.

If I wanted a DC Y3, I would take Jon up on his offer to upgrade. That way I wouldn't ruin the value of the engine by gutting it. Just my 2cents.

An interesting statement.  Will gutting the Lionel system ruin the value of an engine?  Who knows what the future will be?  The Lionel system is a liability for the vast majority of S gauge people.  I don’t have numbers, however I do know most of S gauge falls into the category we call Hi-rail.  Looking at it from a bell-curve perspective, we would have the American Flyer only person on one end and the scale only person on the other end.  Everybody else would be in the middle, going from pure Flyer to pure scale.  I would have to think that the means of powering their trains would follow a similar pattern, from AC at one end to DCC at the other.

The industry standard has moved to DCC.  Again I don’t know details for all of H0, N or the other scales, but I’m going to guess most come DC with a standard DCC jack to plug in the DCC module or DCC already installed.  Yet we now have two companies who use different (non-compatible? And for some, not even backward compatibility within the system) proprietary systems in a world where DCC is the norm.  Will either of these systems come to dominate DCC?  I doubt it.

I’ve rambled enough,

Tom Stoltz

In Maine

Actually, I was thinking to upgrade the code in the loco for no cost, other than costs of shipping it to my office;  but you know the craziest thing?  I think the Y3 will run on DC as shipped!!  The code change I was thinking to apply would only enable DCC.  I think you should try the loco before you modify the loco, you may find it works for you in a way that is pleasing.

You should get general steam sounds with chuff.  You can turn down the volume to a pleasing level, and also off with the knob under the tender hatch.  Cruise will be active, cruise will make the loco run nice.  The smoke system will shut down, not enough voltage to warm up on DC.  Give it a try, unless you already tore it apart.

Happy New Year.

Great news Jon. There you go Tom. You're in business. 

 I do believe that Lionel is on the right track (no pun intended). The latest products apparently will run on DC, AC, DCC, and Legacy. How can you beat that? Now we may even get the option for scale wheels on steam engines too. Sounds like a win win to me. I am very happy to see this kind of flexibility Because while I have and use DCC, I would prefer to use Legacy or DCS. There are a lot of draw backs and negatives to DCC. Foremost for me is simply ease of use. Both setup and operation. There are new competing technologies from companies like Ring Technologies, but that's another topic.

I still believe that the future of S lies with modelers that aren't even in S today. To that point, I think we continue to see more and more converts or toe dippers from other scales. Specifically HO and 2 rail O. So obviously Scale wheels, couplers, and DCC are all going to help on that front.

If/when the scale wheel conversion is available I will probably pick up a Y3 or two and perhaps send them to Jon to make them DCC capable.

Hi Rusty,

Take a look at the MTH DCS Commander. It accepts any input: AC, DC, DCC and overlays the DCS control signal. So you can easily add PS2 or PS3 engines to an existing AC, DC or DCC Layout and have control of all of the DCS features.

http://www.mthtrains.com/content/50-1028

Sorry its off topic, but I thought it would be helpful.

Jonathan

Jon, CTO, Lionel LLC wrote:

Actually, I was thinking to upgrade the code in the loco for no cost, other than costs of shipping it to my office;  but you know the craziest thing?  I think the Y3 will run on DC as shipped!! 

You should get general steam sounds with chuff.  You can turn down the volume to a pleasing level, and also off with the knob under the tender hatch.  Cruise will be active, cruise will make the loco run nice.  The smoke system will shut down, not enough voltage to warm up on DC.  Give it a try, unless you already tore it apart.

Thanks Jon, but it’s a long way to San Francisco from Maine.  It is nice of you to offer, though.  Probably going to gut it anyway, too many other changes to be made.  Like taking a hack saw to the electronic coupler so I can body mount a Kadee #5, voltage regulator boards for the smoke and lights.

 Rusty wrote:

We could be equally critical of American Models...  After all, you have to specify if you want scale wheels, Hi-rail wheels, DC operation or AC operation.  And the scoundrels at AM don't even have a DCC option.  We have to install it ourselves and there may or may not be an 8-pin plug in the locomotive.  I imagine there's some S Gaugers pretty cheesed off with AM because they can't buy a DCC equipped loco from them.

Well, I’m not all that sure.  They are at least offering options and you are not forced to pay for any options you don’t want.

We have to accept the fact that neither Lionel's or MTH's proprietary systems are going to go away anytime soon.

Unfortunately true.  The proprietary systems will continue to be a major disincentive for a lot of us.  I have the Mikado and needed the Y3 as a test engine for my business, but I won’t buy anything else that comes with a cost up front proprietary system.  Give me options, please.

 as a side note...  We see Lionel personnel trying to address issues, problems and concerns on this board.  We may not always like the answers, but at least they're trying to talk to us directly, unfiltered. 

 I have yet to see an MTH staff member address our S gauge concerns over here.

I agree, it is nice to have some communication from the Big L.  I believe Jon deals with the electronic side of things and I have no idea if any others are listening.

MTH not having a presents here might have a little to do with who the sponsor of this forum is.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Thanks, I really hadn't looked at the DCS commander before, mainly because there hasn't been a need for me to.

But as I read it, it basically is another cab to run DCS, then as a switich to allow other track power to pass through, it won't "control" AC, DC or DCC..  The commander seems  to basically do what my block toggles do, allow me to switch between DC and DCC in my case.

Right now, I'm wondering about the capabilities of the potential MTH S gauge locomotive on board electronics.  I know the MTH O gauge Proto-3 locomotives will operate AC, DCS and with a switch, DCC, but they won't run on DC as far as I can tell.  Proto-2 would just do AC and DCS.

We'll see how this all shakes out with MTH.  Right now, Lionel has developed the advantage in that the at least with the SD70, (and hopefully future products and re-releases) it won't care if the track supply is AC, DC, DCC or TMCC, it will figure it out and go.  The end user won't have to invest in any different control system unless he wants to.

If MTH decoders and motor drive boards will accept AC, DC, DCC and DCS without having to change anything out, they will be on somewhat equal footing and S gaugers will be able to utilize AC, DC or DCC systems with either MTH or Lionel products without investing in a DCS or TMCC system.

Isn't it great we get to worry about such things?

Rusty

Somehow, I don't think the OGR staff would mind if MTH would join the list of sponsors.

Rusty.

Jon, I bought the SD70ACe from MTH, scale 2-rail, when they first came out.  It ran very well on straight DC and had sounds but no cab talk.  The lack of cab talk didn't bother me.  So if Lionel has the same level of DC control with their proprietary TMCC I won't complain and probably not gut it.  I'm just hoping Lionel continues to offer the scale wheel option.

Greg

Learning that the SD70Ace and the Y3 may be able to run on DC with at least some integral sounds is great news. This information should be included on the American Flyer website, perhaps in an FAQ section, because the Y3 manual warns against using DC. If both locomotives and future engines have the same capability without any compromise in slow speed running, then any potential buyer can get most of the functionality along with beautifully designed engines. I suspect that enabling the full Legacy features with Railsounds would require a move to AC power and the command modules; but if they, too, would work with DC, that would be the best of all worlds. MTH has promised that flexibility, but we'll have to wait and see.

The appeal of American Models locomotives is that they are sturdy, great running engines that offer sufficient detail and a great base onto which a user can add super detailing or other options--all at prices that increase only when one orders options. Ron Bashista has done a great job with limited resources, and one can argue that his work has kept S gauge alive until Lionel and MTH applied the defribillator last year.

Thank you for the information about the Y3s, Jon. Once I get some confirmation that they do work on DC and understand how well they work, I'll be placing an order and start budgeting for an SD70.

A very valid and important point, I think.

Mark in Oregon

TOKELLY,  You points are well taken.  I am saddened about the manual errors, that is a concern I have been struggling with for a while - getting the right info in the manual from my team and how to get the folks who write the manual to run it by Engineering and Customer Service for review before it prints.  Let's hope 2013 is a better year on that front.

I know the Y3 will *not* be harmed by running on DC.  Up to 24VDC - no problem.  I believe the sound system has the code update in the Y3 to prevent straight DC (which can appear as a DC offset) from triggering the horn/bell.  The balance of the electronics (Radio, Motor/Light/Smoke controllers) are capable of DC operation.  I designed those boards and wrote all of the code; so I can guarantee DC is not a problem there.

Rusty, give it a try for us and let us know for a user perspective

Somehow, I don't think the OGR staff would mind if MTH would join the list of sponsors.

Rusty.

There is a little more history than you are letting on.  However, it does make one wonder why none of this is showing up on the S-scale yahoo list.  With all the talk about the Y3 over there you might think a possibility of the Y3 running on DC would be of some interest.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

I tried my Y3 on DC as Jon suggested and communicated my results to him. 

Let's just say DC and the Y3's aren't quite yet ready for prime time.  No Y3's were harmed in the experiment.  AC/TMCC was unaffected by the experiment.

Rusty

Thanks Rusty, I will look into why and post an update.   I was hoping all of the code was installed for DC on this product, but seems not.

Jon,

While you are checking the code, would it be possible to let us know: 1) if the slow speed performance is still very good in the DC mode; 2) what sound features work with DC; 3) if it is possible to later add a Legacy controller and still operate in DC? The ideal situation would be semi-functional operation with some limited sound effects when running DC, but full features once a Legacy controller is added to a DC system. That may be expecting too much, but it would allow a DC user to grow into the Legacy system without having to alternate between AC and DC through toggle switches for different engines. If this works, every S gauge user could find a place for a new Lionel locomotive once scale wheelsets are available.

I tried our Y3 loco in our lab today; and although it is a pre-production loco, it ran well on DC. I am still doing more testing to confirm the production product status capabilities.

The slow speed DC operation was very nice, sounds started up at about 8 VDC; and motion started at about 10 VDC.  The downside is the voltage on a 12 VDC power system won't give you much top speed, but the loco can handle 18-20 VDC if your power system is capable of higher voltages.

The loco runs Legacy, but the loco won't run on DC power in a Legacy environment.  You must have AC track power for Legacy to operate.  This is a Legacy limitation.

The loco can run DCC with a reprogram of the Radio board, no hardware changes would be needed to add DCC, just the software upgrade.  We did not enable the DCC operation on the Y3 as we were under the impression that without Scale Wheels there would be little desire for DCC.

I guess the bottom line is that we did not spec DC operation on the Y3; but feel free to try the loco as shipped on DC, you may be satisfied with the operation as shipped.  As others on this thread have proposed, you can remove the electronics and convert the loco to pure DC with a little effort.

I guess I can help verify what Jon said about the Y3 on DC now.  Looks like the power pack I (an MRC Power 6000, about 25 years old or so) was using has some kind of issue with Lionel's electronics.  I suspect there's some kind of weird signal coming out of it that doesn't affect a conventional DC locomotive, but I have no way of finding out.

I tried two other different power packs, a GML Enterprises supply w/throttle and just got done trying a very ancient MRC Controlmaster V.  I got good, repeatable and predictable forward and reverse operation and control with the Y3 on straight DC with these two DC-only power supplies.

So, I would agree with Jon, it looks the Y3 will run fine on DC.

Rusty

As an O scale guy, I found this thread very interesting.  What amazes me is that Lionel has the ability to enhance features in Legacy (DCC), and hasn't put it out there in either S scale or O scale.  Lionel needs to start thinking "out of the box". 

The more people Lionel can entice to use their products, the grater their chance for longevity.  Lionel should consider HO again, but I do think that S will become the best.

The American Flyer SD70ACe's will be DCC compatible.

Rusty

As I understand, all future offerings should be DCC capable. That's the beauty of this kind of electronics. If need be the software can be reflashed. 

The user manual for the Lionel SD70ACe is up on the Lionel American Flyer website. It includes a number of CV details for running the unit in DCC. I suspect that this information may apply in most, if not all, ways for the Y3s. There is even an option for quilling the Railsounds horns and whistles using DCC controllers. That feature makes these new Lionel units far more flexible than most people realize and allows the impressive Railsounds outputs to be heard in a DCC environment.

Bear in mind the Y3 as delivered is not DCC compatible.

Rusty

I have had the privilege of Beta testing the DCC support for a few months and I am convinced that people will be very happy with how the SD-70s operate under DCC control. One of my favorite features is the ability to turn "Sequence mode" on with a function key. Very cool. 

I'm attempting to run the Y3 on DC and am getting results similar to what Rusty got in his initial tests. Running the voltage up to about 10V then reversing polarity gets sometimes the bell, sometimes the whistle, sometimes movement, usually in reverse.

I'm using an American Flyer 30B transformer with a bridge rectifier on the output to get DC. This is not uncommon among old AF guys who have converted to DC. The good part is it delivers about 18V at about 7A, so it has the output to get reasonable speed out of the Y3. But since the output is unfiltered, I'm thinking that the electronics are getting confused about whether its seeing AC or DC. I expect that adding some filtering to the output may solve my problem.

Am I correct in assuming that in DC, I should get direction based on polarity, and only the automatic sounds? In other words, no sounds should be triggered by flipping the direction switch?

Bill

Bill,

Pure DC is required, the electronics will see the pulses as non-DC mode and switch to some other state(AC or DCC) - probably AC mode and seeing the pulses as an offset.  Pure DC is required.  A filter cap, watch polarity!  Also, you are correct, horn / bell can't be triggered in DC mode.

Thanks, Jon! I did further some testing: with the AF 30B, and MRC Tech 2 2400, and an MRC Tech 2 2800, I got essentially the same results: I could get reverse reliably, but forward would usually just turn on the whistle, sometimes the bell, sometimes neutral, and sometimes forward. So none of those power supplies are practical for this loco.

I also tried an old, home built DC supply that someone built for our club years ago. Success! I could get completely reliable forward and backward motion by moving the direction switch deliberately. Instant flips of the switch sometimes turned on the bell.

I doubt this old supply is perfect DC, but it seems to be good enough. I would have no trouble running this loco on a DC layout. Dynamite!

How about DCC? Would it be possible to remove the radio board and swap it for a DCC enabled one? Or if that is not practical, could we send you the loco to get it updated?

Thanks!

Bill

I dug out a Bachmann Magnum power pack for an On30 set I have and tried it on the Y3. 

Unfortunately, I got the same results as with the MRC Power 6000.  Reverse is OK, but forward it just sits and whistles.

What I'm finding interesting is the consistent result of of working in reverse but not in forward, even if the wires to the track are reversed, regardless of which pack is used.

And yet, where more modern packs fail, this 37 year old warhorse runs the Y3 just fine:

Rusty

Bill, DCC is possible, I will look into the details in the next week or so; please email me via my forum email to arrange the upgrade in a few weeks.

Rusty, and others, I do understand the directionality of the bad behavior.  The Radio is operating on 1/2 wave DC.  On one track polarity, the radio is completely shut down (reverse); and the motor driver activates and operates on DC.  In the other polarity (forward), the radio has power, but is designed to detect a lack of power transitions (AC) and if not detected (DC) shuts down; effectively allowing the motor controller to activate and operate on DC.  The pulsed DC must show up as AC on the forward direction and activate the AC mode(which looks for DC offsets) and fires up the horn and causes motion issues.

I don't know if I can fix this, but I will have a look at this issue for future products.  I will enlist in the forum to help me on this one, and ask to borrow a power system (MRC 6000??) that causes the issue for my analysis.  Anyone?