Yellow Hall Returning?

Norton posted:

FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:

The YELLOW HALL?

The cold, unheated, dank, dark and crowded "basement" of the grandstand? Oh sure...that will help improve this meet/show.

Been there. Done that. No one in their right mind would want to set up a booth in that dump.

Good grief. 

The Fairgrounds is thinking of upgrading the Yellow Hall and asking its regular customers if they would have a use for it. It wasn't Eastern Divisions idea but they are now thinking of ways to use it. Right now the thought is to use it to attract Model Railroaders who currently have little interest in what goes on there now, including HO and N where the majority of model railroaders are.

Folks here have been saying for years that ED has to make the show more like The Big E or the Great American Train show. 

Nothing is written in stone at this point so give it a chance.

Pete

Well that dark dungeon used to draw a bigger crowd than orange will ever. I hope show never gets like big E. This show was originally for collector's to buy and sell trains.  Big E is too public. It draws the crowd but mostly people that are just looking for something to do and never buy more than a starter set. My dad has been going twice a year since 1974. Never missed even one. I'll be 32 in March and I've never missed one since around 1992. York is the Disney world of trains. Throw in the bandit shows and you can almost make a week out of it. It's still awesome. No matter what anyone does. A train going in a circle will never compete with video games. Times have changed. I hate it but it's not changing anytime soon.

This is just my opinion, But as one of the young guy's (under 21), I personally think that York should go to a once a year meet in October and two days Friday, Saturday. I also think that opening the Yellow hall is the worst idea ever. While I was only 4 or 5 years old at the time that they closed the Yellow hall, from what I remember of it, was that it was a dark, dirty, and dusty place. I also do not blame the dealers and manufactures for wanting to leave early on Saturday. They are not there for our entertainment, they are there to sell trains and make money.

As a table holder in the Silver Hall a couple of observations:
1. Table space is getting easier to obtain in the member halls. 
2. As shared to me from Debbie Geiser,"TCA Eastern pays $250,000 to lease the Fairgrounds from Monday through Saturday." So I feel its to their advantage to open the halls for as many days possible. 
3. That said, for me, the meet is effectively over at 2pm on Friday. In all seriousness, the crowd disappears about 1:45. This coincides with some group gathering in the inky-dinky Gold hall...

4. Saturdays are for playing shuffleboard in the aisles.

5. I pray the member halls are never opened to the public for that would kill the TCA as membership would no longer be required to attend. I already know a couple of guys that dropped their membership but still go to the Orange and Purple as paying public.

6. Rumor has it the Yellow Hall will be for HO vendors.
Open fire!  

. 

If they are putting Ho in the Yellow hall, put N- Gauge in the purple hall  and then put Flyer stuff in the brown hall so I don't have to see it when I'm looking at O-Gauge in the other halls!

Not sure if it is true but I heard that April 2019 may be the last April show. It was past on to me a rumor has it. Is there any truth to this? I heard this else where, not here.

hardly post but here are my thoughts.

the days of conventional running the collecting and or looking for that elusive item/s is gone kaput finito during the heyday of collecting old trains and the non posts here on the forum support that very observation. as to those saying waiting a whole year for a York show is not good it seems yesteryear the attendance to that one show a year say 20-30 years ago proves that a non issue the webmaster can confirm we could read more posts about York than you could shake a stick at that's reality.

the once mighty bandit meets are no longer what they were at one time and the small posts about them again support that observation.

York is no longer exclusively about trains but has in fact turned into a social gathering part of York getting together with past friends meeting new ones and talking trains is more up front and center now as well as gathering for a good breakfast or late supper or a photo gathering this seems like the new eastern division York show.

even those having special days for hearing news from various vendors or about learning the new innovations and having questions asked by train companies and answered by representatives is dwindling in size compared to years past.

all this I have watched happen right here on this very forum how can I say that?

easy the posts from 20 years ago would be all over this forum with this is the find I have seeked or this is all the items I was able to get and cross off my list the York posts of today are meek in comparison or oh my mth just announced a dramatic command control system the hype just does not exist anymore the newer items are not as sought after as collecting is not the same anymore nor are the trains made today its a new world and we are a pin size entity vying for a space to compete with video games you can play on a smartphone! need proof look at a child with a parent in a store what's in there hand a smartphone and what are they doing playing a game aimed at what age they are at and its not a train related game.

as to eastern division and York show it seems they are trying a lot of ideas but seems has not found the avenue to generate the excitement needed for a strong attendance as well as for the vendors having more sales during the event or a reason not to pack up early!  I haven't a clue how to get more folks interested as we are in trains will assume that the lack of passenger trains as most of us older generation grew up with might also have a impact of general public lack of interest as those are long gone and the childhood excitement seeing them and the once plentiful freight trains from class 1' railroads and short line railroads we live in a very different world now.

as to vendors packing up early where is the incentive not to? as to leasing the buildings for a week for the show common sense 101 folks all shows I attend at fairgrounds the vendors have 1-2 hrs to pack up after the doors closed its not rocket science allow time after shows end for them to have time to pack up if that means you pay overtime duh rethink and short both days opening time to compensate for it. not sure but seems someone posted they pay for a weeks time to use the buildings so to me a week is 7 days the show is open ? correct me if wrong 3 days so can someone explain where the other 4 days got off to time wise not to allow vendors those hours after show to pack up or is the security an extra fee they pay over and above the building fees?

I miss the days of the great American train show the first few years it was fantastic all train makers various suppliers of scenery or? were plentiful and just like the York show is now poof they all pretty much left leaving nothing more than a swap meet that folks came looked and left and nary a purchase we stopped going as well as we wanted scenic items or miniature people for our layouts and on and on all gone poof.

personally from a sideline viewer you all had a better show a better manufacturer showing with yep once a year show sorry but go back you will see twice a year and allowing public in did nothing to excite the masses but once a year and the posts flourished about it all and the vendors were plentiful vying for a spot to show the latest you just gotta have this and no bto's needed either!

that's all I have agree disagree matters not to me I can run my trains and dream and enjoy them from times of long ago to the few command control engines I have and honestly really do not need anymore I am content with what I have can you say that?

Dmaxdeere87 posted:

 Big E is too public. It draws the crowd but mostly people that are just looking for something to do and never buy more than a starter set.

It would be great if they DID buy "starter sets". I've spent a number of entire weekends at "public" shows with our modular group. I would say, "never buy more than a $5. Thomas toy". However, the kids loved the layouts we put up.

eddie g posted:

The Yellow hall is just being talked about to use for HO.  Nothing for sure yet. The member attendance was over 9,000. That does not include the public.

Yikes! Didn't they claim 15,000 to 16,000 attendance a few years back?

The thread is a waste. Rumors, rumors, rumors...Please take this thread down...ED is NOT going to once a year.

eddie g posted:

The thread is a waste. Rumors, rumors, rumors...Please take this thread down...ED is NOT going to once a year.

I'm not going to take the thread down, but at least you said "please."

This is a discussion forum, and as long as the conversations stay civil, it can continue.

B&O946 posted:

This is just my opinion, But as one of the young guy's (under 21), I personally think that York should go to a once a year meet in October 

Why? Twice a year is a great thing, and why October? I know more who go in the spring than go in October. I grew up in that area, and weather wise April is normally better than October. I feel the way they have it now is actually the best. the only thing I might change is maybe longer hours for Saturday but that would have to be a test thing for a few shows to see if it drew enough to see if it made it worth it.  I also say don't make it mandatory during the test period for sellers to stay past noon as it is now, until you see if it works. If it does then you can consider that.  

eddie g posted:

The thread is a waste. Rumors, rumors, rumors...Please take this thread down...ED is NOT going to once a year.

Actually there is some very good responses to this. Even if some of it will never happen, it lets other know how they feel about things going on at the York Train Show. Members of the eastern TCA could receive some good feed back from post like this. 

Doing a hall or say a portion of one hall that was HO could be beneficial as I know some HO people who would come if they thought there was enough HO to make it interesting for it. IT would also be better for them if it was all in one area instead of trying to find 20 or so HO dealers between 3-5 halls. As for S and O being separated I don't see that as there are some who collect both. 

rtraincollector posted:

B&O946 posted:

This is just my opinion, But as one of the young guy's (under 21), I personally think that York should go to a once a year meet in October 

Why? Twice a year is a great thing, and why October? I know more who go in the spring than go in October. I grew up in that area, and weather wise April is normally better than October. I feel the way they have it now is actually the best. the only thing I might change is maybe longer hours for Saturday but that would have to be a test thing for a few shows to see if it drew enough to see if it made it worth it.  I also say don't make it mandatory during the test period for sellers to stay past noon as it is now, until you see if it works. If it does then you can consider that.  

The reason that I say to keep the October meet is that in the spring people are heading into summer and are not doing much with there trains, where as in October people are heading into the winter months and are starting to do stuff with their trains again. I also think that extending the hours on Saturday is a terrible idea. I went through the Orange hall on Saturday morning this last York just after the show opened and one dealer was about 90% packed up. So if the dealers are already doing that on Saturday that early, what good is extending the hours going to do? These are just the thoughts though of some 20 year old who wants to see York continue successfully. 

rtraincollector posted:

B&O946 posted:

This is just my opinion, But as one of the young guy's (under 21), I personally think that York should go to a once a year meet in October 

Why? Twice a year is a great thing, and why October? I know more who go in the spring than go in October. I grew up in that area, and weather wise April is normally better than October. I feel the way they have it now is actually the best. the only thing I might change is maybe longer hours for Saturday but that would have to be a test thing for a few shows to see if it drew enough to see if it made it worth it.  I also say don't make it mandatory during the test period for sellers to stay past noon as it is now, until you see if it works. If it does then you can consider that.  

October usually has good bit bigger crowd

Why October?

Well, because that's the time of year that most people, even those already well into the hobby, begin thinking about trains. It's the time of year when the hobby begins its growth cycle (if there still is a growth cycle). The link between toy trains and Christmas is a very strong one, and there darn sure isn't anything wrong with helping to perpetuate that tradition.

     "October usually has good bit bigger crowd".......not last week, at least not in Orange Hall. A good judge of the crowd is how far vehicles are parked out from Orange Hall on Friday mornings around the 9 a.m. opening. On good years, the parking has approached the west gate off Highland Ave., both on the pavement and the grass.  Last week, vehicles weren't even halfway to the gate. People keep posting about how big the crowd was....I didn't see it that way. I didn't see a lot of the general public in Orange Hall on either Thursday or Friday although there were two Amish families looking around on Friday morning.  Also, there was little to no bargaining on prices.  I understand that dealers are there to make money but the buying public also has only some much to spend.  To me, April is the better show if it should unfortunately have to come down to being held once a year. October prices are higher because it is the start of the Christmas buying season. 

     Another point about last week's show is that it followed a pattern that hasn't happened in a few years since the ED changed the show's schedule. For years, on average late Sept./ early October has the Fall Carlisle Car Show, followed by the Hershey Car Show leading into Columbus Day weekend, and the Fall ED show would then be the following (3rd) weekend. A few years back,  the ED pushed the fall show back a week. People, particularly those with campers, would spend the better part of the three weeks in Central PA and attend all three shows.  I use to attend all three at once time and see familiar faces at each event.  This year, the calender cycled around so that the three shows followed each other on the three subsequent weekends. One would have expected at least some members to do this again. 

    If the ED wants to put the HO and N scale in Yellow, why not try it and see if it works.  Yellow was a challenge to navigate and carry packages when it was crowded.  Both gauges are a crowd that York doesn't seem to draw very well. 

Well, my guess is that if it ever comes down to just one York Meet per year, the October Meet would likely be the winner. I cannot imagine April taking the prize due to the time of year--spring weather and tax time among them. I believe the April 2019 event will be a good one for gauging this. But I don't have a crystal ball, so am cotent to sit back and watch, and to continue to see how others feel, and why. 

Nobody in the ED has even mentioned once a year. Who is making this up, and why? The meet is not going to once a year period.

There is only one other four letter word that gets more attention and whining than the word, York.

eddie g posted:

Nobody in the ED has even mentioned once a year. Who is making this up, and why? The meet is not going to once a year period.

Just like it was not going to allow cameras and not open to the public?  It may not go to once a year in the short term, but never say never. 

PA Anthracite posted:

     "October usually has good bit bigger crowd".......not last week, at least not in Orange Hall. A good judge of the crowd is how far vehicles are parked out from Orange Hall on Friday mornings around the 9 a.m. opening. On good years, the parking has approached the west gate off Highland Ave., both on the pavement and the grass.  Last week, vehicles weren't even halfway to the gate. People keep posting about how big the crowd was....I didn't see it that way. I didn't see a lot of the general public in Orange Hall on either Thursday or Friday although there were two Amish families looking around on Friday morning.  Also, there was little to no bargaining on prices.  I understand that dealers are there to make money but the buying public also has only some much to spend.  To me, April is the better show if it should unfortunately have to come down to being held once a year. October prices are higher because it is the start of the Christmas buying season. 

     Another point about last week's show is that it followed a pattern that hasn't happened in a few years since the ED changed the show's schedule. For years, on average late Sept./ early October has the Fall Carlisle Car Show, followed by the Hershey Car Show leading into Columbus Day weekend, and the Fall ED show would then be the following (3rd) weekend. A few years back,  the ED pushed the fall show back a week. People, particularly those with campers, would spend the better part of the three weeks in Central PA and attend all three shows.  I use to attend all three at once time and see familiar faces at each event.  This year, the calender cycled around so that the three shows followed each other on the three subsequent weekends. One would have expected at least some members to do this again. 

    If the ED wants to put the HO and N scale in Yellow, why not try it and see if it works.  Yellow was a challenge to navigate and carry packages when it was crowded.  Both gauges are a crowd that York doesn't seem to draw very well. 

      

Thursday the cars were pretty close to the gate,more people were parking out by the side this year asphalt. 

I like looking at cycles to try and predict things.  Let's say the postwar years were a booming time for trains. Then the beginning of the modern era, the 70's into the 80's things took a dive.  And I'm not dissing General Mills or MPC.  But plastic steam engines and plastic wheels on freight cars was a low for starter sets, especially for Lionel.  Things started to pick up with the Kughn years and then MTH burst onto the scene and started what I believe to be the platinum age of toy trains.  Competition drove Lionel to get their quality back up while MTH pumped out engines and rolling stock never before made.  Never before had an operator had so much to choose from from so many different brands...Lionel, MTH, Atlas, K-Line, Williams, 3rd Rail, etc.  Not to mention all the off shoots associated with building and operating a layout.  I'm guessing most of us bought trains like they would dissappear tomorrow.  Way more than we could use or need.  Standard gauge died because spaces got smaller and trains adapted accordingly.  Postwar died as slot cars, space travel and other things occupied young kids.  Modern era gave way to Platinum.  Each time things went high and then low and then high.  Now phones and video games and computers occupy most kids in an endless onslaught of information and connectivity.   We have held up the hobby as long as we could.  It may be on the down slope.  Hopefully it will come around again and a new train age will be born.  Enjoy what you have and have fun.  BigRail 

eddie g posted:

Nobody in the ED has even mentioned once a year. Who is making this up, and why? The meet is not going to once a year period.

I’ve been reading all these posts, and I still don’t understand why anyone would want to cut it to once a year. I know I don’t have the York pedigree many of you do, but dang, I would never want to have LESS train show time!

Scrambler81 posted:

I’ve been reading all these posts, and I still don’t understand why anyone would want to cut it to once a year. I know I don’t have the York pedigree many of you do, but dang, I would never want to have LESS train show time!

Depends, I suppose, on whether you are looking at things from a business perspective (manufacturer, distributor, after-market supplier, dealer, seller) or from a consumer perspective (TCA member, general public, etc.).

Scrambler81 posted:

eddie g posted:

Nobody in the ED has even mentioned once a year. Who is making this up, and why? The meet is not going to once a year period.

I’ve been reading all these posts, and I still don’t understand why anyone would want to cut it to once a year. I know I don’t have the York pedigree many of you do, but dang, I would never want to have LESS train show time!

The Eastern Division's contract with the Fairgrounds is up next year. Prices have been steadily going up. Income has been going down. They may not be able to afford more than one show a year.

BTW you won't hear this from an ED member because no one knows how all this will play out yet.

Pete

I don't care what anyone says, I'm still going to York.   Once a year or twice a year, manufacturers or no manufacturers, one hall or eight...it matters not to me.  Getting worked up over speculation is pointless.  All we know at this time is:

1) Lionel isn't coming in April         

2) The contract for the use of the fairgrounds is up for renewal after next year

-Greg

One other thing we know for sure is no more senior discount. 

Pete

Rumors are always a fact of life. Some true and some false. If York goes down to one show per year so be it. Let us face the fact that we are all getting older and a lot of us have way more then we can actually use on our layouts at one time. There are no records we have access to on how each manufacturer did for the year. Costs for everyone keep going up, buying market could be going down. So down the road  some critical decisions will have to be address coming down to expenses, if manufaturers would still do two shows a year, if opening up to the public increases the attendance substantially and the cost of leasing the fair grounds. For me I will take each day as it comes pertaining to trains and York and just enjoy the moment........................Paul

Heard from a reliable (eastern division leader) that Yellow Hall will reopen as a dealer hall, and 'HO Only'. TCA is changing.

Also, Lionel said they would not display in the Spring of next year. (and that they too are moving back into HO)

Jim

I can tell you JIM from a more reliable  person nothing a been finalized about the yellow hall.

Good to know that "retired people . . . have more money to spend. . . ." I'm not so sure that is necessarily true anymore, if it ever was. But aside from that, a good number of retired people who have been in the hobby for a reasonably long time have pretty much already acquired most or all of the trains they have sought or can use or even house. Many have already recognized the finite limits of our time on this planet, and determined that it is to their advantage to enjoy and make use of what they have rather than see relatives give it all away a couple of weeks after the hobbyist is planted.

Allan,

The above statement is very true to me these days. I have bought enough trains in the past 30 years that I do NOT need anymore. I have enough to run and to enjoy. Besides, being a retiree, I need to make the $ last and buying a $1700 engine these days makes no sense as the end of the paragraph is quite true as well.

I can't begin to tell you how many folks I talk to who tell me they come to York now almost exclusively for the social experience it provides, and how many tell me they are cutting back to one time a year simply because it is becoming cost prohibitive due to increased real-world expenses such as health care costs and a myriad of other things that are not matched by increases in pensions or Social Security.

Allan,

York has become a social event for me. I enjoy going twice a year to see my friends from around the country and oh yeah... I might buy a train, etc.... I missed this past York (1st time in 26 years) due to illness (shingles) and not the ones that the yellow hall needs. I missed all my friends. Did I need to see Lionel with their new offerings? No. I f they are not attending in April, it is purely a financial decision. York is a HUGE O gauge show. You never know what you will find there.

P.S. Rich Melvin, I hear ED will let you park the motorhome next to the yellow hall so you can be the first one in at noon on Thursday. 

I am bringing this discussion back.  ED TCA seems to be putting folks who recently registered in the Yellow Hall.  I don't know anything about the current status of that hall as most comments from 3 years ago seem to indicate it is less than desirable.  Has anything changed with the ambience of this hall?  My son, a recent TCA member is being offered two tables in Yellow.  I already have two tables in Red so it looks like we would be quite far apart. 

Thanks,

LionelFlyer

@lionelflyer posted:

I am bringing this discussion back.  ED TCA seems to be putting folks who recently registered in the Yellow Hall.  I don't know anything about the current status of that hall as most comments from 3 years ago seem to indicate it is less than desirable.  Has anything changed with the ambience of this hall?  My son, a recent TCA member is being offered two tables in Yellow.  I already have two tables in Red so it looks like we would be quite far apart.

Thanks,

LionelFlyer

The Yellow Hall was "interesting" but I had no problems with it.

I'm thrilled that it is being re-added to the event, and that it will be a full 3 day event (Thursday - Saturday), especially after reading/hearing all of the carping that the event is shrinking and halls are being eliminated.

I must say I agree with a lot of Allan Miller’s comments. I read in different places that the hobby is in the decline and probably so. I haven’t missed the Yellow Hall not beginning there, it wasn’t an easy place to shop. Now as far as changing to the 1 show a year, that’s a good idea. I’ve been there for the 2 shows and over the past 25 years find the October show the better and more attended show. With the costs of everything going up  Manufacturers and private dealers are finding it harder to fund the expenses it takes in coming twice a year. The Friday and Saturday are good for everyone involved and would cut back on expenses. If TCA would change the hours up a little and make Saturday a 9-3 Day instead of 1pm close it would help for those who are now rushed to get through the show that day. Maybe it is time for the Eastern Division Leadership to take a good hard look at this best of all Train shows and not so much what has been, but what the future looks like for the hobby and to adjust it to meet those expectations.  

@Lionelski posted:

The Yellow Hall was "interesting" but I had no problems with it.

I'm thrilled that it is being re-added to the event, and that it will be a full 3 day event (Thursday - Saturday), especially after reading/hearing all of the carping that the event is shrinking and halls are being eliminated.

Fyi... It's not due to an increase in vendors.  This is directly from the ED TCA releases on their website and Facebook page.  I'm not mentioning the reason here so as not to risk the thread going down the path of discussing a prohibited topic.   You can read for yourself directly from the source.

-Greg

@poconotrain posted:

......... Now as far as changing to the 1 show a year, that’s a good idea.......

I strongly disagree - please no.

Many people, including myself,  look forward to this event every 6 months - the hunt, learning experiences, friend gatherings, etc

@rtraincollector posted:

Why? Twice a year is a great thing, and why October? I know more who go in the spring than go in October. I grew up in that area, and weather wise April is normally better than October. I feel the way they have it now is actually the best. the only thing I might change is maybe longer hours for Saturday but that would have to be a test thing for a few shows to see if it drew enough to see if it made it worth it.  I also say don't make it mandatory during the test period for sellers to stay past noon as it is now, until you see if it works. If it does then you can consider that. 

FYI, the October York Meet numbers have always been higher than the April York Meet numbers for as long as I have been in the TCA. I joined in 2002.

Pat

@poconotrain posted:

I must say I agree with a lot of Allan Miller’s comments. I read in different places that the hobby is in the decline and probably so. I haven’t missed the Yellow Hall not beginning there, it wasn’t an easy place to shop. Now as far as changing to the 1 show a year, that’s a good idea. I’ve been there for the 2 shows and over the past 25 years find the October show the better and more attended show. With the costs of everything going up  Manufacturers and private dealers are finding it harder to fund the expenses it takes in coming twice a year. The Friday and Saturday are good for everyone involved and would cut back on expenses. If TCA would change the hours up a little and make Saturday a 9-3 Day instead of 1pm close it would help for those who are now rushed to get through the show that day. Maybe it is time for the Eastern Division Leadership to take a good hard look at this best of all Train shows and not so much what has been, but what the future looks like for the hobby and to adjust it to meet those expectations.  

While I have not seen any official announcement, the Eastern Division calendar now indicates that there will be both April and October York Meets through 2024 and all will be the traditional three-day Meets - Thursday, Friday and Saturday.

Pat

"I'm not mentioning the reason here so as not to risk the thread going down the path of discussing a prohibited topic. "

I'm not good at tip-toeing, and the reason doesn't seem to be controversial to me. The management is ensuring (not "assuring" as they like to say) that there will be enough room between tables to keep us all safe. If safety is a prohibited topic, maybe this isn't a good hobby site for me.