York is a Business- Lets not forget this

I go to find and buy trains ..lately that ain't happenin'.  Vendors need to show up with new and different stuff to sell.

No, it is not a business.

A group of train collectors got together in the 1950s to trade, buy and sell to each other, and socialize. That is not "starting a business", especially one open to the public. 

Dennis:

Perhaps you should join the TCA before making further comments about how the TCA is or should be run.

Steven J. Serenska

C W Burfle posted:

No, it is not a business.

Yes, it is.

If you truly believe otherwise, then you fundamentally don't "get it."

Well, it IS still called the T Collectors A.  When the thrust of the club gradually migrated from "collectors" to "operators" the Orange Hall of the York meet became a business.  Not to be insulting to our fine manufacturers whose products, we recognize, are useful in attracting the next generation, I seldom spend much time in the Orange Hall. I take my time in the members' halls, because that's where the "collectors" items are found.

It may be a business for you Rich, But for all the collectors that set up & attend, It's a hobby.

Eddie, if it's just a hobby, I guess all those "collectors" will just give their trains away for free to anyone who wants them! Yeah...sure they will.

You don't "get it" either.  

Rich, I usually agree with you but not this time. In my opinion it is only a business from the standpoint that the ED must take in more money than they put out to run the show. If other vendors such as OGR or anyone else don't make enough money to justify showing up then they shouldn't attend. I mean no offense to anyone and I am personally not happy about that but I understand that the vendors are in business to make money and not attend a meet for fun. That's how business works. In business you rarely do things that effect the bottom negatively.

As for the OP, he has lobbied on this forum for years to open this meet to the public so he could attend without being a TCA member. Since he so desperately wants the vendors to "prosper" I hope he puts his money where his mouth is and shows up next April with a wad of cash and spends it all.

OGR Webmaster posted:

Eddie, if it's just a hobby, I guess all those "collectors" will just give their trains away for free to anyone who wants them! Yeah...sure they will.

You don't "get it" either.  

Rich, what about those guys (obviously not all of them) but the ones that everyone on here talks about. You know the guys who bring their overpriced trains from show to show hardly ever selling anything? They are obviously losing an unknown amount of money, which may or may not be a lot, when you add up their costs of fuel, hotel, food and the table. Yet they continue to do it. The only answer is that for them it is not a business. Maybe it is a few days away from the wife or a good time with friends but there must be a reason other than making money that they do it.

Rich, I would think that for some of the guys that you're right and it is a business to them. Those are probably the guys who already stopped attending.

I think saying it is business for every single person that gets a table in the member halls can't be correct. Each person may have a different situation.

I think there are lots of broad brush comments being made here.  So I'll make one too.... and I would say that York -- in and of itself -- is NOT a business... whether or not the Webmaster says so.  He's speaking for vendors who set up shop in the Orange & Purple Halls.  But York's original inception back in the 1950's was clearly not that of a profit-making business.

Now having said that, sure.... elements of York have clearly evolved into a profit-making venture today.  And LHS's, train dealers, suppliers, vendors as well as the model train importers most certainly view today's York as a business activity.  I know several dealers (smaller train shops) that no longer attend York, because they concluded that the costs to attend exceeded their sales at York.  So for those folks, they're clearly viewing York on business terms.

But when you look at the member halls, there are an entirely different set of rules in play.  And we can't speak for EVERYONE in attendance.  To some members, selling lots of trains is important since they outlay expenses to attend and rent a table (or two).  For others, they don't care about the expenses.  THEY REALLY DON'T.

Sad to say, it's very similar to how photography has morphed today... namely, it's a discipline that runs the gamut from pros to pure hobbyists.  And they're all colliding big time these days.  There's an outfit in my local area that offers photo enthusiasts the opportunity to shoot high school sports events and post their photos on this outfit's website.  If somebody buys their photos, this outfit gets a percentage... but pays these enthusiasts NOTHING to attend the event.   (This outfit also makes good revenue by selling ad space on their website too.  So these photo enthusiasts are providing free content that makes the site valuable enough to sell ad space.  Sound familiar???? ) 

Anyway... I saw one of these photographers at an event today, and we spoke briefly... and I asked her "How's that arrangement working for ya?".  Her response... "It keeps me active.  My sons are in college now, so I'm looking to do something with my time.  If I make a few dollars selling some photos, it's an added bonus.  If not, no big deal."

That's very much like TCA members who bring trains to sell at York.  If they sell them, great.  If they don't, they return in 6 months and do it all over again.  Doesn't sound like a "business" to me.  Far from it.

So all and all, the real answer is, "It depends."  A clear case of YMMV -- especially for TCA member hall attendees.  Is anyone really that surprised?  

David 

If money is changing hands for goods, no matter what goods they be.....then it's business. 

Having fun, seeing friends, makes the transactions bearable! and exciting......and more importantly.......brings you back.

Think of going for your morning coffee every day at your usual haunt to chew the fat with friends, you know the owner he's a mate, he's also in business, you give him money (and tax) he gives you the goods.

Airedale posted:

If money is changing hands for goods, no matter what goods they be.....then it's business. 

Having fun, seeing friends, makes the transactions bearable! and exciting......and more importantly.......brings you back.

Think of going for your morning coffee every day at your usual haunt to chew the fat with friends, you know the owner he's a mate, he's also in business, you give him money (and tax) he gives you the goods.

Absolutely!  As soon as something is exchanged for consideration be it money or barter it's a business.

I don't post a great deal and to be up front, I am not a TCA member and have never been to York.  However, here is what I found on TCA's website:

"In 1957, the Train Collectors Association was incorporated as a non-profit corporation under the statutes of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. An authorized 501 (c)(3) entity, TCA may accept tax deductible contributions."  (http://traincollectors.site-ym.com/?page=About_TCA)

Additionally, the TCA has a National Business Manager position and operates museum stores.  Based upon these facts and statements, I agree TCA is a business. 

Joe

York, to me, is like going to a mall, the potential to look, purchase or sell at a profit, visit friends and discuss all sorts of business without wearing a three piece suit. It is definitely  a place to engage in commerce whether doing so for a living or simply just enjoying this great hobby, thanks to the TCA Eastern Division for the opportunity.

According to the definition that ARRSD90 found "What is a 'Business?", your religious institution, be it Catholic, Protestant, Hindu, or whatever, is a business.

I guess you can define anything you like as a business.

Regardless, the only "business" the Eastern Division should be in is servicing its members while not loosing money.  You can argue all day about how to accomplish that. But I have never seen any concrete numbers posted about how many people visit each hall, or how many dollars are spent in each hall.

Does that mean that the Eastern Division should ignore the dealer halls..... no, of course not. The Eastern Division is taking action to try to increase traffic in those halls. And as long as they don't change the overall character of the show, that seems like a good idea. But the Eastern Division isn't going to be able to do anything to make those new attendees buy any of our overpriced toys. The folks who are likely to make those purchases are already in attendance.

Yes the collector market is shrinking. But so is the operator market. As I have posted a number of times recently, the two markets are intertwined. Many collectors started out as operators, and many do both.

Neither market is going to grow because the money and space requirements push toy trains out of the reach of the average family, and trains, be they real or toy, do not play a significant role in most people's lives. (Yes, trains move a lot of goods, but most people do not notice.)

As an aside, some folks in this thread are confusing the national TCA organization with the Eastern Division, which are the folks that operate the York Show.

Please note, I do not care how the TCA conducts its business.  I have never attended York but hope to someday in the future.  I look forward to meeting many friends I have made on these types of forums.  However, I do understand the ED runs the meet, but you cannot separate it from the TCA.  According to the ED's opening of its bylaws:

"PREAMBLE: The Eastern Division (ED) Bylaws shall comply with and be subject to the Bylaws of the Train Collectors Association (TCA) in all areas and matters that are specifically required in the TCA Bylaws and applicable to the ED and that are not prohibited by the State of Pennsylvania Statutes for Non-Profit Corporations."

As for churches: depending your viewpoint, you may call them businesses.  However, in the government's view, they are non-profit corporations with certain tax exemptions.  Churches are not selling, buying, or trading goods/services.  Once again, your view of religion may have you take a different view on this but the government does not see it this way, hence the exemptions.

TCA does have benefits for tax deductible donations but must collect and report taxes, specifically state taxes during the York meet.  Is the TCA a non-profit corporation?  Yes.  Is it a business?  Yes.

Joe

 Churches are not selling, buying, or trading goods/services. 

In my area one particular church owns quite a bit of rental property. It is part of one of the major religions in the USA. Churches also act as contractors to NYS to provide services to those that need it. Plenty of religious institutions have fee based child care services too.
I doubt these things only occur where I live.

Regardless, from the definition provided:

 "A business can be a for-profit entity or a nonprofit organization that operates to fulfill a charitable mission."

Please note, I am stating a church is or is not a business.  I stated you can take that view, but the government does not. 

Lastly, my points on the TCA and ED stand so there is no need to go down a separate rabbit hole on churches.  Now that I have exhausted too many minutes to this discussion I will find something better to do. 

Good day

Business or no business trains are FUN and we are in the circle that enjoys them!

If I had started a club of like-minded train enthusiasts whose purpose it was to enjoy, collect, buy, and trade trade trains I would not consider it a business per se. The goal would be to grow larger - not make money. In that, I suppose there are certain elements of a non-profit "business". And, further, if we had to engage in financial dealing our "club" certainly would want revenues to exceed expenses. But the expenses incurred would be in the growing and promotion of our organization rather than just selling things or raising dues just to fill our coffers.

In any case - and here is my point, if it ceased to be FUN - why bother????

Love all of my train brothers!

My look at York. I'm going to say it's a business for the following reasons. Lets look at it from the eastern TCA side first. they wouldn't do it if it lost money. It's a money revenue for them. So that's a business. The Dealers, they wouldn't come if they couldn't make money. Now the individual sellers there, there for two reasons one hope to sell some used trains and make some money, and two the enjoyment of interacting with other train folks and the enjoyment of being  there. So to me it's a business in the sense of the meet, weather the individual sellers wants to admit it or not.

Now the other side it's a place for train folks to get together and be able to hopefully find items they need for there collection and learn more about different aspects of the hobby.  

What a bunch of semantics this thread turned into (started as really).

All started by a guy who decided the $15 a year dues increase caused him to drop out of the TCA and now he needs to educate us all on how York works and how to improve it with carnivals, etc.

He's at this point spent far more that $15 worth of his time "educating" us on how to improve York.

There's obviously something going on here (not that that's new news to most of us).

He's obviously in the "business" of disrupting the apple cart in any way possible for whatever reason. 

Many of the previous complaints about the York meet have been addressed.  Photos now allowed in dealer halls, strollers allowed with kids in them, opening dealer halls to the public for 2 of the 3 days next April, and even the apparently continuing (though still referred to as temporary on the website) waiver of initiation fee that used to be part of your first application for membership.

It's never enough to say "OK, it's changing for the better" and see how it goes.  Instead we should add carnival rides .  Hell, casinos are legal in PA, maybe we should also get some arrangement with the state to get blackjack tables and slot machines in the Yellow Hall.

Make the Orange and Purple halls unaffiliated meets. TCA Eastern can charge them rent for the two buildings during the week and maybe collect a percentage of the gate. TCA members and the public will have to pay admission to get in the Orange and Purple. Now that's what I would call a business. Sounds like a money maker for TCA Eastern to me. Question is, will those who already call the York meet a business put their money where their mouth is....?

Dennis LaGrua posted:

...For their continued participation they must turn a profit...

I would agree with the original post by Dennis and especially the line above. How long would any organization continue if the are not making money? I live in the NY metropolitan area and had some widely publicized church closings recently. In fact, the church where my wife and I were married "merged" (in reality, it went out of business).

Never been to York , but have attended 10 years worth of toy & train shows at the Westchester County Center (White Plains, NY). So, I would say from my standpoint it is a hobby...if I go sell a couple of books, meet my friends, socialize, I buy a prewar PRR Caboose and my wife buys a teddy bear and we eat Nathan's for lunch...that is the extent of "my personal business day." But, for the organizers, if they are losing money the show will not exist too long, so I would agree that would be the case for York, too. Bottom line, yes, it's a business for the organization...probably less so for small vendors like me. 

Tom

The EDTCA opens to the public and still no one is happy. You guys need to go back and play with your trains.  The EDTCA has opened up the vendor halls to the public now it's up to these vendors to make it work. 

Demay posted:

TCA does have benefits for tax deductible donations but must collect and report taxes, specifically state taxes during the York meet.  Is the TCA a non-profit corporation?  Yes.  Is it a business?  Yes.

My understanding is that, the whole reason that York wasn't open to the public is that because it is a swap meet among club members, they DO NOT have to collect the state sales tax, and opening it to the public would change that.

Full disclaimer, I am NOT a TCA member and have never been to York, but would Love to go someday, but York is on the wrong side of the country for Me.

I have been a vendor at about a dozen shows/swap meets now, and my experience seems to be what the York meet was intended for, a Hobbiest, selling/trading no longer used hobby items to others interested in the hobby, with the proceeds typically(but not necessarily 100%) used for other hobby purposes.

 I don't consider that a "Business" any more than if/when I sell an old car to buy a New/er one, I would consider myself a car/used car/antique car dealer. Or DOES selling a single car make one a car dealer? I know that at the swap meets I have sold at, you couldn't buy too many cars for what I sold at the meets, especially ones that you would want to rely on for getting you to work.

I typically sell at 1 or 2 shows a year, I can't recall ever having sold at 3 shows in the same year, and it has been about a year and a half at least since I last was a vendor at a swap meet, so I guess if some of you consider that a "Business" we have different definitions of what a "Business" is.

Doug

I believe that there are several things going on at York and other train shows:

1.  TCA & ED - These organizations have to make money or at least not lose money to continue to host York.  They are in the business of providing a profitable service to TCA members and starting next April to the public.

2.  Manufacturers:  They are in the business of advertising and promoting their products to a group of avid train buyers.  I have never been to any train show (NMRA, World's Greatest Hobby, etc.) where MTH, Lionel, Atlas, etc., were actually selling anything to the attendees.  (I have never been to York so I don't know if they do it there.)  These businesses are there to demonstrate their products and hand out catalogs.  Any profits come from post show sales when buyers place orders for the newly catalogued products through hobby shops or dealers.

3.  Dealers:  Major hobby shops, part time dealers,  OGR, and others are there to sell products and hopefully make a profit at the show.  They also promote their business.  This group must make money or it is not worth attending.  This group is at the show to make money.

4.  Hobbyists Table Holders:  Some are there to make money a little money.  Others are there to enjoy the show and perhaps unload excess or unwanted stuff.  It really is not a business in the sense that their livelihood and whether or not their family eats depends on making a profit at the show or a series of shows.  (I am in this group.  I usually sell trains at a show because I no longer need them.  My prices are usually less than what I paid and my total sales are less then the table rent, transportation, food and other costs.  If this was a business for me, it would be a very, very bad business.) 

5.  Buyers:  They are there to learn about new products, enjoy the show and fellowship with other avid collectors, add to their collections and have fun.  They hope to get a bargain and usually do because so many hobbyist table holders are selling below cost.

6.  Modular Layout Groups:  This group is there to display their work, run trains, fellowship, and to promote the hobby.  Their member may also be buyers.

7.  General Public with small kids:  Their primary reason for attending is for entertainment.  I seldom see members of this group purchase anything but the kids are all smiles watching the trains run on the modular and floor layouts.  The show sponsor may make money on admission tickets and food but none of the other groups do.  

NH Joe

Nothing more to add to the blather-lather that's not already been said.  

But, I agree 100% with Rich Melvin's pithy position on the topic....period.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

MartyE posted:

 The EDTCA has opened up the vendor halls to the public now it's up to these vendors to make it work. 

That about sums up all the yak-a-de-yak.

York is a .....

Who cares!  The TCA Eastern Division is only interested in increasing membership, using the vehicle of the vendors demanding the Meet be open to the public to facilitate that.  The York Meet encouraged dealer and vendor participation to help increase membership, not to help said dealers and vendors make a profit.  The York Meet operated for years as just a members only swap meet.  As the focus started turning towards operating trains, the ED brought in the vendors to help keep the membership growing.

I still wonder what the true motivation is.  To expose new people to the hobby, or to expose the new people's wallets to the vendors?