I am hearing rumors the TCA Eastern Division is entertaining having only one show a year at York, rather than the Spring and Fall meets. Is there any truth in this?
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Joe:
Lionel definitely won’t be there in April. I asked them at their booth last Friday. They said they would be back in October. As to the rumors I don’t know if the Eastern Division of TCA is considering it.
Neal Jeter
Ouch. Lionel is a big part of the TCA. That hurts. Thanks Neal.
As stated in another post Eastern Div TCA has to reserve the fair grounds for two years in advance, so It won't happen for at least 2 years if they do goto just one show a year. Just because Lionel doesn't want to be there in the spring has nothing to do with TCA going to one show. You have to many other companies there.
I feel it's a move on Lionel's part as my father use to say, Penny wise but Dollar stupid. I feel in the long run it will probably hurt them.
As long as I am alive, I hope they never go to one meet a year. Nothing has been said about once a year.
This would kill me and the show. People will simply go to other shows and not bother with york. If they want to make happy folks, go back to fri sat again.
"Lionel is a big part of the TCA."
Really? I think they have one vote just like you and me. 
My wife and I have attended York for 13 straight times and we truly enjoy the show. We enjoy the friends we have made and the dealers of different sorts we have dealt with. Some of these dealers have become good friends. We will continue to go to York because I wanted to go for so many years but couldn't.. I love trains and my basement is a testimony to that. I wish Lionel would stay but I also wish we could go back to American made even if it cost more. I understand it most likely won't happen
Bean counter move by Lionel.
Personally, I'd rather see one show a year than to go back to Friday/Saturday only. I like the way that a 3-day show spreads out the crowds - makes it much easier to examine stuff and BUY it.
Lionel is all but a small part of the show. When they pull out it will only hurt themselves. If they needed more foot traffic they should do the following:
Offer their I love York box car again - release no. 2
Offer 50 % off parts - order there and have them shipped home or on site repair
Have a raffle off a new engine
Have a catalog announcement at each show.
This is the higher ups short sightedness that will again hit future sales.
Mallard4468 posted:
Personally, I'd rather see one show a year than to go back to Friday/Saturday only. I like the way that a 3-day show spreads out the crowds - makes it much easier to examine stuff and BUY it.
It seems that you and I are the only 2 that feel this way. The red, silver, and blue halls were really bad.
Alabama Joe posted:I am hearing rumors the TCA Eastern Division is entertaining having only one show a year at York, rather than the Spring and Fall meets. Is there any truth in this?
I only go once a year anyway. I hope, even so, that it is not true.
All the folks giving Lionel grief need to remember that other vendors threatened to do the same. Lionel acted. I suspect others will follow. I've heard from at least one other vendor wishing they didn't have to be there in the spring because of the small return. At York you are preaching to the choir. The costs are large for little return.
While im disappointed, I don't see it as a bad move when you can concentrate those dollars on folks that are new to the hobby at an event that caters to new blood.
Lionel, MTH, Atlas, Bachman do not sell at the meet. The dealers that sell their product will still be there. The EDTCA meets started without them and will continue with or without them.
True Lionel, MTH ect. don't sell at York BUT we did get to see their new catalog offerings. And if E D has to lease the fairgrounds for a week they might as well have a 3 day show.
MartyE posted:All the folks giving Lionel grief need to remember that other vendors threatened to do the same. Lionel acted. I suspect others will follow. I've heard from at least one other vendor wishing they didn't have to be there in the spring because of the small return. At York you are preaching to the choir. The costs are large for little return.
While im disappointed, I don't see it as a bad move when you can concentrate those dollars on folks that are new to the hobby at an event that caters to new blood.
I have confirmed Lionel is still doing other shows like the Amherst show at the big E in late January.
It may be a sign of the times, an indication that Lionel sees the Baby Boomer bonanza shrinking and is moving towards new expanding markets . In their hay day, Lionel sold lots of starter sets. Advertising was their catalog; Sears, Montgomery Ward, JC Pennies wish books and magazines like Life and Look. Mostly at Christmas time. Hobby shops were plentiful and supported year round and Christmas sales. Layouts, were the a huge draw in retail establishments like Macy's at Christmas. Parents bring the kids to see the layouts and so it begins.
So recently, Lionel opened it's own retail store complete with layouts and stocked with sets. Larger retail establishments are stocking more sets. Transformers are gone and Bluetooth is here. No need for expensive electronics and kids love the phones and tables. Is this Back to the Future ? I see all this happening, but where's the advertising ? York is advertising. Why not up your game instead of retreating and push for more hands on layouts which would attract more public with kids. There vendors sell the sets. After all, isn't York the largest O Gauge show on earth ?
OR: maybe layout and public expansion is not in York's future and Lionel forecasts little return on it's advertising dollar..
You're lucky. I've only ever seen a lone Bachmann area at any show. I think it was their show too. I don't recall a running display. Just catalog prices for all they had brought (HO, no Williams or even On30) .
Never saw lionel atthe Michigan shows. But then again, I'm looking at tables first... then displays if there is time. If there is live steam, I'll be there instead. A rare treat; I don't like to miss the stink... so I may have missed them..?
I don't get their lack of advertising anyhow. Never did. Every time they make the tube I hear the name in public circles. No advertising I ever did failed to pay off. I'm not saying it because it was a vocation, I'm saying it because it worked so well in actual practice with my own business wallets. I'd never go without it again... My shelves went bare the first time. I was NOT ready for that big of an increase.
A show is just another ad for them and York is a big one. "Don't get it" 
This thread is better than listening to Channel 19 on the CB. Some facts, some dreams, falsehoods and lots of unsubstantiated facts. John in Lansing, ILL
rattler21 posted:This thread is better than listening to Channel 19 on the CB. Some facts, some dreams, falsehoods and lots of unsubstantiated facts. John in Lansing, ILL
Most accurate statement so far.
Anyway, BREAKER BREALER ONE NINE THIS IS THE SILVER FOX - COME ON BACK GOOD BUDDY! Those were some fun days.
Super O Bob posted:This would kill me and the show. People will simply go to other shows and not bother with york. If they want to make happy folks, go back to fri sat again.
Now that's funny. It won't come close to "killing" the meet. The number of folks who won't go to York if it's only once a year will be less than the number of admissions sold to the general public. We already go to those "other" shows anyway. In fact, I know plenty of folks who only go to York because the others are waste of their time.
-Greg
If they make it once a year I definitely will be going. As it stands now sometimes I don't make both shows in a calendar year but if it were one show per year I would be hard pressed to miss it.
I only live less then an hour from YORK, so I'm there, whenever they will have a show.
I remember back in the 90's that Lionel had a MUCH smaller display in the White Hall (back left corner) for a couple of meets and a truly poor setup in the Purple Hall for a few more before going to a tent display. What people have been seeing in the Orange Hall is the most effort Lionel has put forth.
If they decide not to show, I'm sure their dealers will still have catalogs to sell at the meet.
artyoung posted:What people have been seeing in the Orange Hall is the most effort Lionel has put forth.
Not sure I agree with that. Back in the Neil Young days, he and Lionel hosted a pretty spectacular display effort, including a Jumbotron screen that could be seen over half the fairgrounds, a large operating layout in the nearby tent, and passing out free video recordings of meet participants, often with Neil by their side, enjoying the layout. The videos were distributed to the members within minutes of being shot. I still have mine (VHS, of course, since this was the pre-DVD era).
It has been years since l have seen anything on mfrs' displays l wanted, except Atlas reefers, a Third Rail loco, and the one MTH McKeen car. So who would l miss? As usual, l am going to review again the catalogs picked up, hoping l missed something. Not a tax accountant, but can't all these mfrs., publishers, commercial dealers get some advertising tax write-off for cost of attending shows? Doubt it would offset all costs, but some?
That Neil Young HORDE Layout was phenomenal, but a one shot deal unfortunately.
The minimal White Hall display was a one (maybe 2?) shot deal (before the Orange Hall opened) as well, IIRC. I remember rumors that that may have come about as a part of a deal for Lionel to get priority for booth location choice once the Orange Hall opened.
Lionel certainly has made very decent attempts in the past, but they have seemingly scaled back as the hobby has evolved.
I would guess some of the more extravagant displays were dreamed up in the same time-frame as the ultra-expansive, "let's all compete to see how much product we can catalog in a single year" period. (Remember when MTH and Lionel each had 3 catalog releases in a year? With MTH's being split across one for RK and one for Premier for each of those 3? - think around 1998-2001 roughly, before sanity set in and they reduced to 2 books per year)
Lionel had the PowerHouse display (I think they only brought this to York once, right?), which was impressive and immense, but also not the best to show product, since you could only see the trains when you went inside.
They also had the more expansive version of the current setup, with additional "towers" (the square shelves with loops running starter sets), but a very large loop supported in between the tops of the towers to run larger trains up in the air above the rest of the display. It's been probably at least a few years since they brought that.
-Dave
shorling posted:It may be a sign of the times, an indication that Lionel sees the Baby Boomer bonanza shrinking and is moving towards new expanding markets . In their hay day, Lionel sold lots of starter sets. Advertising was their catalog; Sears, Montgomery Ward, JC Pennies wish books and magazines like Life and Look. Mostly at Christmas time. Hobby shops were plentiful and supported year round and Christmas sales. Layouts, were the a huge draw in retail establishments like Macy's at Christmas. Parents bring the kids to see the layouts and so it begins.
So recently, Lionel opened it's own retail store complete with layouts and stocked with sets. Larger retail establishments are stocking more sets. Transformers are gone and Bluetooth is here. No need for expensive electronics and kids love the phones and tables. Is this Back to the Future ? I see all this happening, but where's the advertising ? York is advertising. Why not up your game instead of retreating and push for more hands on layouts which would attract more public with kids. There vendors sell the sets. After all, isn't York the largest O Gauge show on earth ?
OR: maybe layout and public expansion is not in York's future and Lionel forecasts little return on it's advertising dollar..
York might be the biggest show but I sincerely doubt it's the spark for most new train hobbyists. Not one story I've ever read in any model railroad magazine starts with the hobbyist entering this hobby by attending York. On a personal nore, I've never been to York but see it as the mecca of O and really want to go one day soon.
In terms of the other person who posted about Lionel still does Amherst, that's great news as I attend that show and love the fact their people are accessible and I get to see the latest and greatest offerings. Having said that. in the 8 years I've been going, Lionel has only been setting up for the past 2-3 years or so and the show did just fine without them.
All abut dollars and ROI. Business decision. My company attended CTIA, COMDEX and a whole host 2x per year shows for years, probably spent 3 million per year per show. After a while it got away from its original intent and became a a nightmare. Millions of small vendors.
People looking for things free, tire kickers, competitive intelligence stealing, more rules and regulation about move in and move out, could only take leads which were terrible, became more expensive. Finally,after an internal debrief with my team, dealers and distributors, who I meet with regularly, we decided to pulled the plug. Guess what, my business did not suffer. It's all about the resources financial and human and can they be better utilized elsewhere. I found other shows and markets that I could attend and get the impact I wanted. I am sure that Lionel's distributor's could care less about them attending both shows. I am sure some dealers don't care either because they want to focus on their customers and develop new opportunities.
I totally get what Lionel is doing and it won't hurt them one bit. You still see them at the Greenberg shows and other smaller local, more impactful venues.
The Big E show is only once a year, and it hasn't died. Perhaps the spring York, if it survives, will become fewer new product vendors and more member trading. I doubt it, as the days of the collecting frenzy seem to have faded, and that's what York was about before the 1990s (I'm told by others--before my time in the hobby).
This is perhaps the inevitable change with declining membership (TCA only has about 2/3's the members it had 15 or so years ago, or whenever the peak was), changing tastes (operating vs. collecting) and the need to spend money on social media (TCA's website, Facebook, etc.). I would not be surprised that Lionel might well have a TCA Museum presentation at spring York (which is found on the TCA website) even if they don't have tables at York proper.
I notice how Trainland is using the web for marketing and information, and most the major vendors are doing advertising by this mechanism. Change is the only certain thing. Different times, different needs.
Dave45681,
I remember it just like you said. The Lionel display has certainly varied over the years, and it's been interesting to watch it. The one you refer to with towers was the one they brought right when Legacy was hitting the market and I believe they had that layout custom built for them, it was huge, had great scenery, and had a long main line as I remember. It was an exciting time because I think MTH, not to be outdone, also brought a new layout to York around that time. The towers supported an oval of track on top in which the new Legacy Texas Special was running. I'm sure it was very expensive to bring that display on the road, and it only came for a couple of York shows. I remember the powerhouse too, like you said, it was attractive but not easy to navigate into especially if the booth was crowded. Remember when Lionel would do a separate presentation in the Gold Hall to talk about and demonstrate some of the new products, especially new Vision Line stuff?
Great memories, thanks!
Rob
Rob,
Aside from detailed layout on it's own supports (independent from the towers), I believe the main setup (towers and the rest of the display - shelves, etc) they have most recently been bringing is the same, just without the top loop and 2 fewer towers. I sort of recall 4 in a square in the middle, with 2 in the front of the booth, and 2 along the back wall so the loop could be made on top, and then 2 additional towers either also along the back wall in the corners or elsewhere within the booth (they did not have anything to do with the loop on top, but always had the shelves running starter sets, as did the 4 towers holding up the elevated loop).
I do remember at least one or 2 times Lionel held talks in the old Gold Hall (popcorn, anyone? 
I also remember getting some sort of odd monster truck sort of die cast toy car as a freebie for attending). One particular occasion I recall the roof was leaking. I also think one of these Gold Hall presentations was the first time Jon Z publicly demonstrated using a smart phone to control a train (might have been a Boy Scouts engine?). Probably was at least a year or 2 before the app and hardware was actually available for hobbyists.
-Dave
All companies as in train manufacturers used to have great displays at York. Now lionel throws a blue sheet over a couple fold up tables. Not really interesting. Few years back they had a really nice layout with multi levels etc. This York lionel didn't even have merchandise for sale like t shirts etc. I saw people last year buying mugs, t shirts etc like it was going out of style. Mth has also scaled down their layout. If you want kids into it, you need a layout they can run and tons of operating accessories.
PSU1980 posted:
I totally get what Lionel is doing and it won't hurt them one bit. You still see them at the Greenberg shows and other smaller local, more impactful venues.
What Greenberg shows would those be? I've been to Greenberg shows all over the NE, and never saw Lionel at any of them. Even their presence at a Philadelphia WGHS was minimal.
Then won't be at Greenberg shows. I've never seen them there either.
Despite what was apparently stated at the Lionel booth, I am not aware that Lionel has made any official announcement concerning attendance at the April York Show and would be surprised if they ultimately decide not to attend. Lionel has certainly scaled back their presence at York over the past few years and I spent very little time at their booth because there was not much to see.
Whether or not Lionel comes to the April Show, they have much bigger issues on their hands including weak and disengaged senior management, an appalling lack of marketing expertise, diminished quality of their offerings (particularly their scale freight and passenger cars), a lack of quality control (e.g., the recent F-3 color scheme debacle) and some indefensible product design decisions, such as the one to scrap their industry-leading die cast sprung trucks and couplers with hidden uncoupling tabs and replace them with non-sprung, partially die cast trucks with ugly thumb tack couplers.
Without major changes, I have serious concerns about the future of Lionel. As someone who has been a loyal Lionel customer for nearly 50 years, that is very sad.
Super O Bob posted:This would kill me and the show. People will simply go to other shows and not bother with york. If they want to make happy folks, go back to fri sat again.
I do not believe it would kill the Show, but agree it would be a mistake, just one more in a series of poor decisions by the current Lionel management team.
irish rifle posted:Despite what was apparently stated at the Lionel booth, I am not aware that Lionel has made any official announcement concerning attendance at the April York Show....
No "official announcement" per se, but they did inform TCA Eastern, their Lionel dealer network, and others (including OGR) that they would not be attending in April. Not sure they really need to say anything beyond that at this point.
And we at OGR have had to delete a couple or more threads where folks got out of line with their comments, and we will continue to delete threads if the discussions and comments don't remain civil on this or any topic. Truth is, there really isn't much need for further comment on the matter.
I guess this sez it all about Lionel cutting back at York:
Rusty
Rusty Traque posted:I guess this sez it all about Lionel cutting back at York:
Like fall of the house of usher. Soon,to be no more.
