York should still be a totally closed meet.

  I assume you mean to members only. Do you think the vendors would agree?

pgrande posted:

Your thoughts?

since you brought up the subject, tell us your thoughts about closing it......

Having just been to the YORK meet on Friday I can say that it was a little depressing. Attendance seemed to be low. And for my interests there wasn't much to see (in the dealer hall department.) Also not having all the manufacturers there was a downer but I knew that going in. I think the meet needs to be cut back to only once a year and held in October. I don't think opening it to the public matters one way or another. Although, I feel like "the public" in this instance are families interested in seeing layouts as opposed to "train people" who would probably be in the TCA already. Walking around the blue hall with my dad who I brought as a guest, he remarked that "most everyone in here right now including me is going to be dead in 10-15 years." I looked around and had to agree. That is also something the TCA and Eastern Division is going to have to contend with in the short term future. 

I would disagree that it should be a totally closed meet.

If the public sales help make is worthwhile for the dealers to go to York, I see this as a win for everyone!

Jim

jd-train posted:

I would disagree that it should be a totally closed meet.

If the public sales help make is worthwhile for the dealers to go to York, I see this as a win for everyone!

Jim

But that point is under debate, to the best of my knowledge.

For years, the cry from dealers was to let the public in, so they could experience the meet.  That has now happened for the dealer halls over the last few meets, but this is the meet where several importers and magazine companies decided to not attend, so apparently the public did not enhance their bottom line enough to balance the decline due to other factors. 

So whether it helped is debatable.  As J611 mentioned, the demographic remains the same.  That factor cannot be altered much by admitting the public, it would seem.

The (sad, but true) joke among me and my dealer and some other colleagues that socialize at York is that "20 years ago, when I joined (shortly after graduating college and having a real job), I was one of the youngest members of the TCA.  It's now 20+ years later, and I am still one of the youngest members of the TCA."

-Dave

I'm hoping to go to York for the first time in the fall as a guest; I have some interest in joining the TCA but it'll have to make financial sense for me to do so. I'm also hoping that there's a decent amount of younger members in the group; nothing against the older demographic but it's always nice to have some people who I have age in common with as well.

How many of these threads do we need???  There are already plenty but at least if you are going to participate in this one, keep it on topic with the reasons why the York meet should be closed (assuming OP means member's only)....

Dave45681 posted:

jd-train posted:

I would disagree that it should be a totally closed meet.

If the public sales help make is worthwhile for the dealers to go to York, I see this as a win for everyone!

Jim

But that point is under debate, to the best of my knowledge.

For years, the cry from dealers was to let the public in, so they could experience the meet.  That has now happened for the dealer halls over the last few meets, but this is the meet where several importers and magazine companies decided to not attend, so apparently the public did not enhance their bottom line enough to balance the decline due to other factors. 

So whether it helped is debatable.  As J611 mentioned, the demographic remains the same.  That factor cannot be altered much by admitting the public, it would seem.

The (sad, but true) joke among me and my dealer and some other colleagues that socialize at York is that "20 years ago, when I joined (shortly after graduating college and having a real job), I was one of the youngest members of the TCA.  It's now 20+ years later, and I am still one of the youngest members of the TCA."

-Dave

 

I guess that I am struggling with coming up with a reason why it would be bad for the dealer halls to be open to the public?  

Having the halls open to the public at worst would have no impact on the vendors.  Anything else but worse case,  would be a plus for them in terms of sales.  Even a modest $1,000 - $2,000 in additional sales might be enough to make their attendance worthwhile.  Whether total sales from TCA members plus the public is enough to justify a vendor's cost to attend York, is something only that vendor could decide.  

I just don't see a downside to having the dealer halls open to the public.

Lionel made their own decision not to attend based on what they perceived as best for them.  I wonder, however, at what other venue would there be around 10,000 o-gauge model train hobbiest? 

Jim

TCA needs to attract newcomers to the hobby. In some ways TCA needs to learn from the younger members in the hobby about trends in model railroading and what interests them so that TCA can adjust to the changing needs of members and would be members. The Amhearst show model seems to attract younger folks and families so I would say TCA for the York meet and there division shows should move more toward replicating that model.

I think it is also a good idea to encourage other train hobby organixations to participate in the York Meet as well. LCCA's presence at York is a good example of ths presence.

So I am for keeping the meet open to the public. WE need to encourage participation with younger hobbyists so that the Hobby can sustain itself.  

I don't see any good to close it to the public, for ANYONE. 

We in this hobby need exposure-  I have been to only one York (October 2018), and I thought that one was terrific.  One of the best parts was seeing the public- not thousands or anything, but a lot of families, grandfathers w/ teen and younger grandchildren, all people who we would love to have in the hobby. 

One day of only Members- fine, but otherwise let's promote the hobby!!  

I think it is also a good idea to encourage other train hobby organizations to participate in the York Meet as well. LCCA's presence at York is a good example of this presence.

EDTCA does provide the venue space for operating layouts in the white, purple and black halls and that will attract the kids to see the trains operate. As for LCCA's presence in the Orange hall lobby, I question why they are being set up in the lobby. With the added space in that hall at this show and perhaps the upcoming ones there, why can't EDTCA place their layout inside the hall and give them the additional space to expand their layout and show their trains to interested folks. There was enough space where Lionel and Atlas would have been that we could have an inside football game there. But instead, it was empty looking.

WAKE UP EDTCA. YOU MISSED AN OPPORTUNITY TO FILL THAT VOID IN THAT AREA OF THAT HALL. LCCA has a mission to bring younger folks into the hobby. 

Just my 2 cents.

Ted Bertiger, President of OCSMR who has added 6 members to our club in the past 4 months.

I have no objection to opening part of show to public...how else are you going to attract new members...make them aware there IS such a hobby?  But what % of attendees were NOT members? What has been gained? Fortunately for me, this week began with Strasburg O scale show (which was tiny), but where l spent the most, and the Timonium open show, which seemed to have more tin plate than usual, l thought was larger than l'd seen in the past, and where l got to meet a structure kit manufacturer whose kits l have built, as they are new and different. If the few mfrs. left want to preach to the choir, where else are they going to find a larger group of disciples?  But what would Lionel have brought that was new and different?  I have most of the old stuff l want, so why should l spend motel and gas to see reruns, and pick up catalogs of reruns? I missed two Yorks a year ago for medical reasons..what did l miss?

The way I understand it, is that not all of the halls are open to the public.  Why ?   Why would you not open a store to prospective customers ?   What are we, some sort of secret organization ?   Everyone complains that there is not enough new blood in the hobby.  It seems to me that if you want to attract new people to our hobby, you must make our hobby known to those people.  Every other train meet I know of doesn't require a secret handshake to attend, so why should the York meet be any different ?

Dan Padova posted:

The way I understand it, is that not all of the halls are open to the public.  Why ?   Why would you not open a store to prospective customers ?   What are we, some sort of secret organization ?   Everyone complains that there is not enough new blood in the hobby.  It seems to me that if you want to attract new people to our hobby, you must make our hobby known to those people.  Every other train meet I know of doesn't require a secret handshake to attend, so why should the York meet be any different ?

I'm still trying to understand why you can apparently take pictures in some halls and not the others? 

If people want to see what it is like ahead of time, pictures seem like they could help not hurt as far as increasing attendance. 

Tom 

Dan Padova posted:

The way I understand it, is that not all of the halls are open to the public.  Why ?   

Well, if all the halls were open to the public, some of us may decide not to pay TCA membership dues any more just to be able to attend York. As it is, we may have already lost a few who were only interested in what was being sold in the Orange and Purple Halls. We are already loosing members due to old age and death. Why add another reason?

 

The (sad, but true) joke among me and my dealer and some other colleagues that socialize at York is that "20 years ago, when I joined (shortly after graduating college and having a real job), I was one of the youngest members of the TCA.  It's now 20+ years later, and I am still one of the youngest members of the TCA."

-Dave

 

I thought this exact same thing walking around YORK! For reference, I am now 33 and joined the TCA in 2000. 

Joe Hohmann posted:

Dan Padova posted:

The way I understand it, is that not all of the halls are open to the public.  Why ?   

Well, if all the halls were open to the public, some of us may decide not to pay TCA membership dues any more just to be able to attend York. As it is, we may have already lost a few who were only interested in what was being sold in the Orange and Purple Halls. We are already loosing members due to old age and death. Why add another reason?

Valid point. The ONLY reason I pay TCA dues is so that I am able to attend the YORK meet. Membership has zero value to me otherwise. 

Ted Bertiger posted:

I think it is also a good idea to encourage other train hobby organizations to participate in the York Meet as well. LCCA's presence at York is a good example of this presence.

......................................... There was enough space where Lionel and Atlas would have been that we could have an inside football game there. But instead, it was empty looking.

WAKE UP EDTCA. YOU MISSED AN OPPORTUNITY TO FILL THAT VOID IN THAT AREA OF THAT HALL. LCCA has a mission to bring younger folks into the hobby. ........................

IIRC, the map of Orange Hall had a dealer listed for taking a large portion of the space that Lionel vacated.  I have heard that the dealer ended up being ill, and did not make it to this meet.  I don't recall if anyone had been slated to take the Atlas space, or if Atlas maybe retained it and just set up their small table with catalogs there so they would not lose the area for the future.

Dan Padova posted:

The way I understand it, is that not all of the halls are open to the public.  Why ?   Why would you not open a store to prospective customers ?   What are we, some sort of secret organization ?   Everyone complains that there is not enough new blood in the hobby.  It seems to me that if you want to attract new people to our hobby, you must make our hobby known to those people.  Every other train meet I know of doesn't require a secret handshake to attend, so why should the York meet be any different ?

There has been lengthy debate over that in many York threads in the past.  It boils down to a tax agreement between EDTCA and the state of PA. 

"Member to Member" sales within the organization for individuals had been allowed to transpire without the need for collecting/reporting of sales tax for individuals (not true for businesses, which do of course report sales and pay the tax to PA as part of their business). 

Allowing the public general admission to the member halls would risk that agreement.  It's not like there is no way for the public to see the member halls"just once to see what it is like".  The guest registration is a one time thing (per person) that is allowed, and it is without restriction, you get to roam all the halls at will.

Some smaller sellers (I am likely one of the smallest to have a table) do not sell enough product to make it worth having to deal with the paperwork to obtain a PA tax number and file a few sales each York meet for barely enough sales to cover the cost of buying the table.  (I am not talking all expenses, nor should I as I would attend with or without the table, and my hobby is not a business - I simply get a table to try to find new homes for a few items I no longer prioritize in my collection)

As for the "secret handshake" thing, that's a fallacy at this point.  That went away when the 2 signature rule went away to join TCA (admittedly possibly later than it should have, but it's been gone for a while now). 

Needing to join if you repeatedly want to attend York should not be considered a barrier.  Any more than it's a barrier to have to pay yearly dues to any other organization of you want to purchase all of their special run products (LCCA, LOTS, etc.).

-Dave

OGR CEO-PUBLISHER posted:

How many of these threads do we need???  There are already plenty but at least if you are going to participate in this one, keep it on topic with the reasons why the York meet should be closed (assuming OP means member's only)....

As few as possible but as many as necessary? This is clearly a topic that interests people and is trending. There are also many variables so the discussion can and will lead down several paths. Don't go all Zuckerberg on us please.

I don't belong and don't go...but why not have 1 meet for members/guests and one meet for everyone?

Who's the meet really for, TCA members or dealers?  What's it's intended purpose?

pgrande posted:

Your thoughts?

The ship has already sailed on that issue.

Pat

Bob Delbridge posted:

I don't belong and don't go...but why not have 1 meet for members/guests and one meet for everyone?

Who's the meet really for, TCA members or dealers?  What's it's intended purpose?

That's sort of what it is right now, or at least it can be looked at from that perspective.

The Train meet in the Red/White/Blue/Silver Halls is for TCA members and their guests.

The Train meet simultaneously occurring in the Purple/Orange Hall is open to the general public, which includes TCA members, of course!

The perk of being a TCA member is that you don't have to pay a second admission to attend the meet in the Orange/Purple Halls, it is included when you buy your registration to the meet in the Red/White/Blue/Silver Halls.

-Dave

TCA, LCCA, MTHRRC, etc... all started off as wonderfully noble endeavors. The TCA was started at a time when the hobby became a hobby- that is, those pre-WWII kids became interested in their childhood passion once again and had the disposable to afford trains for themselves, their children, a cominbation, or for their children but really for themselves ha. But this history isn't anything 90-95% of this board doesn't already know.

As far as closing off York, see how that meshes with the TCA's version of the "10 Commandments" aka their bylaws:  http://www.tcawestern.org/TCA%20WD%20Bylaws.pdf

That said, the TCA and NMRA have served most admirably in creating standards for toy trains. Further, it is relatively, easily accessible to gain membership in the TCA. Further, it offers benefits to its members as do the LCCA and MTHRRC, which,  while representing their respective brands, both offer incentives to joining. At the same time the TCA provides resources to the public, i.e. non-members, and IMO ultimately has a goal of keeping the hobby going.

The market economy for toy train manufacturers has enough barriers of entry. Hence the cycling of those 2nd or third tier brands like Industrial Rail, RMT, etc..after Lionel, MTH, Atlas. To put barriers of entry on customers would just be even worse. I'm not making an argument that says the hobby is dying or that it's not, but I am making an argument that closing off the biggest Toy Train meet to the public and restricting it to TCA members only is a bad for business for all manufacturers and sellers. At the Allentown Spring Thaw I saw more kids than I had seen before at a train meet, and, to my delight, heard one crying on the way out that he didn't get something- just like I or my brother or father would've done at the age of 4 or 5 when leaving a toy show or train show with my Pop. The TCA and NMRA hols things together but also allow access and information to toy train operation and collecting. Closing off large events such as York is a "turn off" to would-be or future collectors, enthusiasts, etc... and certainly wouldn't be in the best interest of manufacturers or vendors.

I'm not going to get into this thread. Most of you know how I feel about York.  Some of you just don't have a clue.

eddie g posted:

I'm not going to get into this thread. 

Is that a Yogi Berra quote? 

eddie g posted:

I'm not going to get into this thread. Most of you know how I feel about York.  Some of you just don't have a clue.

Hi Eddie G, So if we're reading this post, does this mean you are back at home, all in one piece, and none the worse for the wear? I hope you are. Safe and sound.

FrankM

Is there any attempt to register non members attending the York meet ?  Seems  a big stack of the TCA quarterly and other mailings and a peek at the classified ads on line might be a proper inducement.  Even a complementary no voting rights membership that must be upgraded to full membership withing two years might create some new permanent members.          j

As a guest at the recent meet, I can say there definitely is an attempt to register non-members at York.  I did not register at the meet when I went on Thursday, as I simply ran out of time.  I have since registered on-line.  If a newbie chooses, there is an option for a six month trial membership if the person doesn't want a full membership right away.

The Eastern Division's website notes that 60 new members joined the TCA at the October 2018 meet.

Jim

Another thought occurred to me, after reading STEVEFROMPA's post.  Does the TCA make any money from the vendors, other than the rental money from tables ?   Do vendors fork over a percentage of their sales receipts to the TCA ?   If the public were allowed to attend as freely as a TCA member, maybe more sales would result.  

I don't pretend to know or understand the inner workings of how organizations like the TCA work.  But I am fairly certain that the TCA is not in this for the fun of it alone.  

My first time around, with Lionel, was in the late '70s.  I bought what I liked, because I could not afford to be a collector, read the original OGR magazine as well as some Model Railroader, and an occasional Railroad Model Craftsman.  I also belonged to the Lionel Railroader Club and read a newsletter called Third Rail, if memory serves me.  That was it as far as gaining knowledge of the hobby.  The only other way to gain information about "O" gauge trains was to frequent hobby shops and train meets.  

Fast forward to the internet age.  We have way too much information coming at us.  A lot of time is spent trying to absorb and process that info.  I, for one, think too much time is spent talking about stuff, that in the end, means absolutely zilch.  There must be a half dozen threads on the topic of York.  I am as guilty as anyone here, as I have participated in some of them.  

I think I'll go run a train.

Eddie G is correct....if you are a member of the TCA, and cannot figure out why the York MEET is partially closed to the public...then at the very least you don't know or care what the TCA does for your membership $$. 

 Go back to sleep.

York as it is now, and the TCA is fine with me!

It's a no brainer. Allow the public into the dealer halls for whatever fee the Eastern Division sets. If they want to go into the member halls, charge them a fee ABOVE what the member cost for the meet is, and give them the option of joining the TCA. If they join the TCA, they (the Eastern Divivsion) could` allow an appropriate part of that extra fee charged for access to the member halls to go toward their TCA membership. I don't know the breakdown of expenses for the Eastern Division of the TCA, but a buck is a buck. It will help defray Eastern Division expenses, and maybe get you some new members.

If they get to see what is going on in the member halls, it might persuade them to join.

Simon

Simon Winter posted:

It's a no brainer. Allow the public into the dealer halls for whatever fee the Eastern Division sets. If they want to go into the member halls, charge them a fee ABOVE what the member cost for the meet is, and give them the option of joining the TCA. If they join the TCA, they (the Eastern Divivsion) could` allow an appropriate part of that extra fee charged for access to the member halls to go toward their TCA membership. I don't know the breakdown of expenses for the Eastern Division of the TCA, but a buck is a buck. It will help defray Eastern Division expenses, and maybe get you some new members.

If they get to see what is going on in the member halls, it might persuade them to join.

Simon

1) It's NOT a no-brainer.  Allowing the public into the member halls by just paying a large fee eliminates the "member to member" nature of the transactions for tax purposes.  It's got nothing to do with how much money you charge to let public into the member halls, it's that they need to be members to maintain that situation for the tax man to be happy without forcing every member to obtain a tax number for PA and file for each meet. Member does not equal dealer or business in most cases.

2) The public  can participate as a GUEST one time to obtain access to the member halls to see what is there.  That hasn't changed (also OK with the tax man per long ago agreement we all take for granted).

Each York I have to add this comment, so please bear with me: The "poor public" can attend a large, open to the public", Greenberg show in the Orange Hall every January. This is even better than TCA York because they sell the popular "N" and "HO" stuff in addition to the less popular "O" stuff. Also, there are usually 3 or 4 yearly train shows held in Timonium, MD, a short 30 minute drive south of York. I'm still waiting to hear from a York dealer saying how much they sold to people with the wrist bands.

York is a train meet for members. Not a train show for everyone. TCA can’t be all things for all people. TCA will survive with or without dealers and public. TCA meets may become smaller in size but that’s OK. It will still be a special event for those that both support and volunteer in this great organization. 

pgrande posted:

Your thoughts?

This one made me chuckle.  The original post doesn't even list the usual reasons why the EDTCA shouldn't let the public in.  So far, I haven't heard of any problems caused by the "public" at York.  York is the best run, friendliest, concentrated collector train show of all time.  

Of course, if you are a dues paying TCA member and in ED, then you could vote against allowing the public in the next EDTCA meeting.  The rest of us are "guests" attending a local division TCA train meet and we vote with our feet and our money on whether allowing the public in is okay.  I don't think the aging demographic has any connection to allowing the public in.  And as Jim Berger asked, let's hear your thoughts, justification, etc.

Or since we are in the USA, start your own "members only" train club and compete with the EDTCA.  That's the American way.  I am always in awe of the logistics and quality everytime I go to a York show. 

Please start a new show and give us two competing train shows to choose from.  

I also believe York should remain completely private, even if it means scaling back the size of it. When I first started going to York in 1979, it was 4 halls: red, white, blue and yellow, and it was still a big event. The yellow hall was the smallest and hadn't been moved to the grandstand yet. The York meet was established as a venue for private, member-to-member tax-free sales based on the TCA's 501C3 status. The day I have to start collecting and paying tax on my York sales is the day I give up my table, and there are many of my fellow table-holders who think the same way as I do. If a particular dealer or manufacturer chooses not to attend because it no longer fits their business plan, that does not mean the York meet as an event needs to deviate from it's original purpose. I paid a visit to one of the manufacturers in the orange hall, and the staff was more interested in watching the Masters than answering my questions, so I left and will spend my money with their competitor, who wasn't at York.  In that case, they may as well have stayed home!

John 

Unlike Greenberg and worlds Greatest hobby the York meet is sponsored and run by the TCA Eastern Div for the benefit of TCA members. It's their call and my guess is that what you see now is what we can expect for the for-see-able future. There were no shortage of sellers, both members and business related.

Its still a fun time and there was no shortage of available O-Gauge product

My two cents is I have no problem with guests in the Orange, Purple and Black Halls but the rest of the meet should remain closed. Maybe some of them will join the TCA. OTOH, if the ED felt that they want to go back to a closed meet I have no problem with that either. Whatever is best for the ED and the TCA works for me. 

Gotta give KUDOS the AUSSTEVE.......... if the way EDTCA runs York isn't to your liking in a strong way...certainly go ahead with your own logistics and give us a competing show to attend!  Yea BOY!   From most of these comments of seemingly dues paying TCA members, it sure looks like the only reason they attend is the York show.     Pretty sad.........

As stated before, try reading your TCA news letters and such and see what the TCA does and needs $$$ in order to function.  Needing funding on repairs to the TCA Museum itself was a whopper of a $$ bill!  Maybe do as I do, and when you can send a donation when the TCA calls for  extra $$ H E L P!

It ain't perfect but the TCA "consist" is in more than capable hands!