York tax

Well put.

I can't speak for them, but for those whose interests end with trains made before 1969(or earlier - nothing wrong with this), I suspect it's all the "open the meet to the public" and other rants that invariably come up right after each show.  Quite a few of these (but possibly not all) are perceived to be from folks who have a significant financial interest (i.e., it's their business, not just their hobby) in having a higher attendance at the show.

Lets see, it's 33 days till the York meet starts, so it's somewhere between 33 and 36 days before the influx of "what's wrong with the meet"/"open it to the public"/"the Eastern Div/TCA needs to join the 21st century to survive"/etc.  threads start.

As is brought up in many threads, the aspects of post-war/pre-war collecting and modern collecting/operating are quite different.

While I may not be collecting trains made before 1969, I still walk through all the halls to see what is there.  I walk more quickly past the tables with rows of PW engines and rolling stock sitting on the table, while those who have that focus walk much more quickly than I do past the tables with new product still in the orange/blue, yellow/purple (or whatever your favorite flavor is!)  boxes.

-Dave

(Edit: Seems I am a slower typist, as CW's response regarding the "hostility" seems to match what I suggested)

With all due respect, C W, that's ridiculous.  The York Meet is the largest, most important, and most consistently well-attended train meet in the hobby--worldwide.  Anyone who has ever participated is well aware of what makes it important to this segment of the hobby.

Any comparison with eBay discussions is as apples-and-oranges as one can get.  

One has only to attend just one time to have that question answered.

That's the answer, We'll kick all the dealers out.

As Allan points out, York has evolved to become two fairly distinct meets in one - the member trading halls and the dealer/manufacturer/trade show in the orange hall. Allan is correct that neither would survive in its present form if either aspect were to vanish.

My original intent was to point out that the member hall success depends largely on the favorable sales tax situation. And also to point out that any changes in admission policies might jeopardize that situation.

The "old guard" is not looking to diminish the orange hall experience. They are just hoping to preserve the member trading hall aspect upon which York was originally established.

While the "orange hall only" crowd may minimize the importance of the member halls, they should realize that people would not travel from all over the country and, in fact, the world, for a glorified Greenberg's or World's Greatest Hobby type show.

York is what it is today because of both aspects. Rather than resent one another, it is in the best interests of both to work together to keep the meet as diverse as it presently is.

It's true that York existed successfully for many years without the dealer halls, and I'm sure the ED TCA could still fill more than three halls with members only. But, this member of the "old guard" has enjoyed the diversity and growth brought about by the additional dealer halls. Let's work together to keep both.

Jim

Jim

Please don't try to confuse us with commonsense, wisdom, sound judgement and logic.

thank you for your input

Thanks, Charlie. I try! 

Jim

Absolutely, positively, 100% spot-on!

"Evil" is your word.  Not mine and not used by anybody else.  Dealers and manufacturers  have a particular agenda and interests that may conflict with the membership at large -- no different from other "special interests" that are regularly railed against.

Indeed.  Tart opinion does not equal hostility.  And ultimatums are not issued to bring about reasoned responses.  They're power plays.

I would point out that the US Taxpayer subsidizes the commercial interests by virtue of the TCA 501(c)3 status.  If there's no difference between the York Meet and any other Train Show, there would be no reason for the not-for-profit exemption.  This, as well as the PA Revenue Classification had to be won, as Lou Redmond's story about the little signal or flagpole taken to the IRS meeting will attest.

Jim, I think that you and I think alike about York. The one good thing about the dealer halls is that there is a lot of good collectible pre & post-war stuff in those halls. Especially in the orange hall. Not so much in the purple hall, but I still like to start in the Blue hall.

I am a member of the old guard who has seen some changes occur...some good and some not so good.

I think perhaps that the confusion lies in the fact that TCA stands for Train COLLECTORS Association.  Maybe there should be a Train OPERATORS Association and they could put on a twice-yearly event that draws 12,000 people.

Perhaps there could be, but then the Eastern Div. York Meet would be lucky to get 3,000 participants.  On the plus side, they could fit everyone inside the Orange Hall.

This "us" vs. "them" nonsense is truly ridiculous and shameful.

Yes, the "us versus them" attitude certainly isn't productive.

I looked back through this thread to see how this discussion devolved into talking about eliminating the dealer halls.

IMHO, nobody is seriously suggesting that the halls should go. Rather I think any posts along that line are a reaction to one or more posts statingimplying that the show would not be worth attending without the dealer halls.

Even Allan's last post could be taken that way.

Maybe it's time to lock the thread.

From this and previous discussions on the forum, I've been surprised to hear how many York attendees seem to go out of their way to avoid the member halls (red, white, blue, and silver).

Reasons given include lack of time, same old guys with the same old stuff, overpriced, nothing but tin and postwar, they don't take credit cards, etc., etc.

I think there would be less of a "them vs. us" mentality if those people took a look. There is an amazing assortment of items for sale ranging from early tin but right up through the most modern items available.

Remember these are members selling items just the same as they do here on the buy-sell forum. You will find equally good deals at York in the member halls from equally trustworthy people. And all will be TCA members with their names clearly visible and taking pride in their reputations.

If you take the time to talk to those tableholders with interesting items, you will find most very willing to deal. You will also find some amazing deals on scenery items, parts, basket-case projects for those of us who like to tinker, out of stock items, etc.

It really isn't "them vs. us" when it comes to those member halls....and they are not nearly as mysterious and foreboding as some would have you believe. They are a lot of fun.

But, wear those long distance walking shoes, and ask Ed for some of his secrets to his amazing energy.

Jim

Excellent point(s), Jim.

Even though I am a modern runner/collector, I have purchased many items over the years in the member halls. While it's not common to find too many recent issue (within last few months or year) items, there is generally a fair amount of relatively recent items to be found.

I can't imagine being at York and skipping them.  I never even skipped the "green barn" when it was used!

-Dave

I wasn't referring to dealer hall vs. member halls.  I was referring to the always lame collector's vs. operators assertion.  Both orientations--and most people really are a bit of both--are important to the hobby.  The operator segment has certainly grown and prospered more in recent years (a good thing), but as I've stated many times over the years, it will be the collector segment, whatever its size, that keeps the hobby alive well into the future.

And I would still assert, with 100% confidence, that if the York Meet were to have a collectors-only orientation, it would fade to relative obscurity in a relatively short time.  To maintain its "greatest in the world" status, the York Meet needs all toy train enthusiasts to participate and enjoy what it offers, and it needs to provide representation for all who wish to be represented--manufacturers, after-market suppliers, dealers, member sellers, etc.

As for locking the thread:  Why, simply because you don't agree with some of the dialog?  Is that not what a discussion forum should be all about, so long as the dialog remains civil? 

Ditto for me...including the infamous "Green Hall."  What a treasure that was! 

I picked up some nice goodies in the green hall. I can't imagine anyone going to York and not going through all the halls.

As for locking the thread:  Why, simply because you don't agree with some of the dialog?  Is that not what a discussion forum should be all about, so long as the dialog remains civil? 

No, not because I don't agree with some of the dialog.

I have the impression that there is some escallation of ill feelings.

We'll see how long the dialog remains civil.

I think the combo of dealer halls and member halls is the perfect marriage.  You get to see a tremendous variety of new and old.  Of my 4 trips to York so far I've probably left as much money in the members halls as I have in the dealer halls.  But admittedly I am one of those guys who loves the old stuff just as much as the new.   But if there were no dealers at York then  the expense of a York trip is just not worth it for me.

I can certainly understand the dealers wanting it open to the public.  It cost them a bunch of money to have a presence there and I am sure they at least would like to make a few bucks doing it.  But if that means the members have to start collecting and reporting taxes then I think that is unfair to them.   

As for the dealers paying tax.  Maybe I am naive but I just find it  hard to imagine that dealers, and especially the big guys, would jeopardize having the tax people come down on them for not reporting taxes  I am sure the tax is figured into the selling price.  It just makes it easier to tabulate.

Ed

I have picked up so many bargains in the member halls that I can't even begin to remember them all.  I buy mostly scale stuff and over the last several meets, I've picked up a lot of Atlas O Master Line cars for around $30-$35 each, and sometimes as little as $20 each! 

There are a lot of other treasures there, as well, especially for people that like to kit-bash.  And even after I've spent my budget, it is sure fun to look at all the great stuff our hobby has brought together from across the years and across the globe.

Andy

I see. We start with the assumption that all money is the government's and they are occasionally so kind as to give us mere taxpayers the ability to keep a little through the charity loophole. Heck, I admire the 'old guard' guys. I often wish I hadn't lost interest in trains after high school, only to regain that interest in my 50s. I agree with the esteemed editor in his recent posts.

One observation, however: I don't often see the operators resent the 'old guard' as much as the reverse seems to be true. I just don't get it. Do stamp collectors resent coin collectors?

Well put Alentown!

Working backward through your post; my father was a philatelist and my mother a numismatist and they survived each other for many decades!  When I first started watching this forum, I referred to myself as a collector.  I got my first Lionel train at the age of 9 months because my father worked for the NYC.  Mom put up with the trainboard in the living room (I have pictures) because she loved my Dad.

Growing up, I always had a train around the tree and a trainboard in the basement.  As I turned into a teenager, my interests went to cars and girls but the trainboard remained.  When I entered the military, the trains, cars and girls were left behind, but not for long.

At my first duty station, I bought and set up an N gauge layout on the carpet in the barracks, convinced all of my buddies who smoked to buy LARK cigarettes and save the filters which I opened and created hopper car "loads" - midnight derailments were a bummer 'cause carpet had to be spotless for morning inspections!

While at my next duty station, I got married, laid an HO gauge "empire" around the Christmas tree, out of the living room, into the bedroom and back.

At the following duty station, I reverted to N gauge and build 4x8 board in the bedroom that would soon belong to our first daughter.  The next duty station put us in Florida and the N gauge board went into the Florida room.  After two 13 month tours in Viet Nam I returned to Ohio with my trains but without the ex-wife and now 2 daughters.

I ran a successful business for over 15 years which demanded that I deal with the "Tax Collector" who insisted that I keep track of receipts for each of the 88 counties in Ohio and pay sales tax according to each county's specific tax rate - which I did because the penalty for doing otherwise or being so much as 1 day late is 50% of the monthly sales tax bill!  During the next 20 years I built and have owned a successful IT company and I STILL pay the sales tax monthly.

I purchased my first Lionel items when I was 7 with Christmas money.  I bought the B unit to the NYC AA set I received that year. Throughtout all of these 50 years I have continued buying high end Lionel trains.  As I sit here typing this, I'm in the basement at my computer workbench surrounded by eight 6 foot high, 24" wide "Gorilla" shelves filled with Orange & Blue boxes, and there are more cases stacked around each of 3 walls.  One of these days REAL SOON, I have to get organized, get all of this STUFF out of here and start nailing together all of the wood I've been "collecting" recently!

Was I an operator? YES. Am I a collector? YES. Am I at odds with myself? NO. ...and I don't resent myself either.

I can sit a talk with another collector for hours.  I can visit an operating layout and be facinated for hours.  There's room in the crazy train world that we all live in and love for both factions.  If we were to loose one another our beloved hobby would suffer a terrible loss.  Sorry for the long ramble...

Best,

Dave

quote:

One observation, however: I don't often see the operators resent the 'old guard' as much as the reverse seems to be true. I just don't get it. Do stamp collectors resent coin collectors?

How do you think collectors take the threads about "look how much money a collector paid for that empty box, what an idiot"? (or other items)

How about: "all those collectors are cranky old farts" or "How dumb to buy trains to put away in boxes or display and never run"?

And there are plenty more.

I don't often see (if ever) a post deriding people for building layouts or running trains.

CW's counter point would seem valid. 

However, I also see a crossing over point in Chuck's comparison to stamp/coin collectors.

Unfortunately, I think there are still (some, not all) collectors of older products who resent the production of modern items of the same type as they see it as devaluing the originals.  Of course the new ones are not really "the same", as they are generally in better (hopefully mint/C10 when issued) condition, have more modern features, etc. (though production quality has me doubting the condition part recently, but that's a different topic)  

While the devaluing may hold true for beat up older models, ones in nice shape still seem to be sought after by collectors.

Some would seem to think: "If only those darn reproductions didn't exist, all these folks would be looking to buy my older trains instead of the new stuff".  (and with the laws of supply and demand, more people looking to buy the same items that are a finite quantity = higher pricing as a result)

Of course, if the only option was to buy old stuff, I'll go out on a limb and say many modern collectors/operators would not be in the hobby.  This is certainly true for me.  I would not be satisfied with the quality of post war items I would be able to procure for what I consider a reasonable amount of money.  There is of course also the factor  of the modern command control aspects not present in the originals.  Also the innovations that have come to be in the modern hobby.  Nobody has a postwar articulated steamer I don't think! (just an example)

As others have said, we all exist as a bigger group, and neither could support the meet at the level it is at today without the other.

-Dave

quote:

Unfortunately, I think there are still (some, not all) collectors of older products who resent the production of modern items of the same type as they see it as devaluing the originals.

Probably true. I guess I am biased, but I honestly do not recall a significant number of posts putting down operators. If someone was to post complaints about these reissues / reproductions, I don't see how that would be a put down of operators.

Folks can get carried away debating control system, including good, old-fashioned traditional (mechanical e-unit and whistle relay) control. I don't think prefering e-units makes one a collector.

In the early years, MPC was careful to make their reissues in different color schemes to try and keep collectors happy. Even so, as each reissue was announced, and confirmed, the original pieces would appear on the market in large quantites in conditions ranging from junk to mint. Folks were trying to unload before the prices of originals dropped. But there is no way to tell whether those sellers were operators or collectors. Back then, an operator was just as likely to buy and sell trains because that was how one obtained stuff.

I expect that there are folks that resent the new production, I think their resentment is misplaced. IMHO, the newly made pieces have actually helped to keep both collecting and operating alive. I think they have stabilized / reduced prices, allowing new people to enter the hobby. At least some of those new people will start collecting, and want original pieces. Almost every train collector I know actually started out as operators, myself included.  Some of them still operate, others don't.

This may not make sense to a lot of folks, but I have items that I consider to be part of my collection. These items don't ever get run. Most aren't even on display. Then there are the items that I consider to be my operator pieces. The catagory is self-descriptive. These pieces get run.  Then there are the pieces I keep around to be handled by younger kids. No worrys about dropping, finger prints, new chips, etc.

While I still consider myself a collector, most of what I have purchased over the past few years are "projects". These are items that need some work, and are destined to be operator pieces, "kid" pieces, or perhaps resold as operator pieces at a train show.

(edited to correct some typos)

My goodness, another teapest in a tempot.  

Sorry, I don't see the problem.

Frankly, I don't see any problem.

Of course, there are always going to be people who, for their own reasons, are sensitive to something going on that is not in their domain. They may feel threatened or resentful. There is little we can do about that. Some of the dealers get frustrated, some of the older collectors in the "other" halls may be a bit ornery. That is OK. That is life and the way it is meant to be.

For me, York is a wondrous merry-go-round ride of joy and excitement. I hope it is left the way it is. Everyone that walks an aisle at York is a true, dyed in the wool, "train person."

I can go up to any individual and talk trains 24 hours a day. I love that. Why would anyone not love that? Beats me.

I see no problem with the York meet the way it is. OK, I cannot take pictures and my cell phone calls go outside. Noooooo problem.

At some of the bigger meets I attend (Springfield) there is a public crowd. Still great. Still a fabulous show, but different. Not all those folks are there because they love trains. They like trains. They also like needlepoint and bocci. They are "out" for the day. They're doing "something with little Louis and Audrey. Great. Leave that alone, too. If they don't know what a Hudson is, OK. A River? Fine.

I love York the way it is.

Too many in this hobby (and probably other hobbies) spend way too much time fretting over what other people think and do rather than focusing on their own interests.  And you can thank the Internet for exacerbating that kind of mindset.  Online, far too many tend to say what they think without thinking about what they are saying to a worldwide audience they don't even know.  And that creates the appearance of a divisiveness that in the "real world" probably doesn't even exist.

In short:  In the "real world" of toy trains, collectors and operators co-exist quite nicely--always have and always will--because the commonalities transcend the differences.

My only selfish wish for York is that I had more time.  I am a tad slow on my feet and for me there is just not enough time for me to really get to see and talk to the dealers and then to go and wander up and down the member halls seeing all that great stuff.

As others have said,  I think the collectors and the operators co-exist qutie nicely and actually complement each other in terms of furthering the hobby.

There will always be some folks who take issues with whatever doesn't fit into their personal roundhouse.   I still maintain that York is the best show on earth and provides me with a couple of days of pure train bliss with friends getting to see and hold the new and the old and getting to meet and talk with people just as nutty as me.

I hope it doesn't change.

Ed

I doubt that it will, Ed, and we're all the better for that.  About the only real change we will see involves gradually diminishing numbers of participants, but that is something that is pretty much inevitable and largely irreversible.

Not at all.  We (I) start out with the belief that private interests love to be subsidized by the public.  In this case dealers/importers with private club money.  

I wouldn't confuse "resistance to changing an organization beyond recognition for the sake of change" [my phrase] with  "resentment" [your word].  And there have been plenty of rude, dismissive, patronizing, and mean-spirited comments  from "younger members" here that would be bound to raise the ire of long-time members.

I find it curious, though that the Toy Train OPERATING Society -- open to the public, not known for "snobbery" and never attacked for "elitism" is currently in the hole by $22,000 after the recent convention. [per email received yesterday]

Something I have been wondering about since I joined in 2002....

If you take a look at a map the PA-DEL state line is just a few miles down the road.

So what?  The last I heard Delaware does not charge sales tax.  Still true?

If the state of PA gets too uppity about sales tax collections why can't the ED just move the whole shebang 40 miles SE to a Delaware facility?  Yes, its maybe not quite as close to Strasburg, but this is not necessarily a major disqualifying factor.

Tony

I think the many Eastern Division volunteers who work long and hard to put on this meet twice a year may have a view that's considerably different than yours.

quote:

I find it curious, though that the Toy Train OPERATING Society -- open to the public, not known for "snobbery" and never attacked for "elitism" is currently in the hole by $22,000 after the recent convention. [per email received yesterday]

I was a member of the Toy Train Operating Society for a number of years. I think it is a good organization, and I was thinking about rejoining.

I think the TTOS is never attacked because their profile is too low. They just don't do anything to attract attention.

I also don't recall seeing any real critisim of the LCCA. (I am a member).

LOTS is only mentioned on rare occasion.

The TCA gets attacked because of the Eastern Division's York train show.

What other club has a museum like the TCA?

What other club has a free online magazine?

What other club sponsors an email list that is open to all?

But nobody ever writes about those things.

When people post that they wouldn't join the TCA or attend the York show because the bathroom attendants have a tip plate, or the show admission in too high its obvious that the organization can do nothing right in some peoples eyes.

CW

Excellent post!

I guess I am also old guard and thus have an affinity for the old as well as the new.  Which is why I love York so much  I get to see both sides.  I just fail to see why there might be any friction between the dealer side vs the operator side.  In fact I am fairly certain there is not nearly as much friction as this post might lead you to believe.  As I've mentioned before they compliment each other perfectly.  The last time I was at York the place was full of people who simply loved trains regardless new or old. Some are purely collectors and some are purely operators.  But I suspect a substantial number are both to varying degrees.  I hope that never changes at York.

Re CW's comment about people complaining there is a tip plate in the restroom.  I had not heard that one before.  But it doesn't surprise me.  I do feel sorry for someone who can find the time to complain about something like that.  

Rather than be thankful and fortunate enough to be able to attend something like York they can make the effort to complain about a tip jar.  As CW said there is just no pleasing everyone.  

Ed

And, the truth be told, those people should best be ignored entirely in such online discussions.  But they aren't because others feel the need to counter such comments.  

Also, because the TCA is the largest organization in the hobby and the Eastern Division York Meet is the largest event of its type in the world, the organization and the event become easy targets for those sitting on the sidelines.  The very best thing to do is to not worry about it.  Those of us who attend York know "the real story" full well.

As I've stated many times before:  Those who have attended the meet, even if only once, know and understand what distinguishes that event from any other in the hobby.  Most of the naysayers have never even been there and are clueless about the event.

York is truly a wonderful experience.  I worry that dealers will stop coming if there is not more traffic on Saturdays.  Hence my call to open the meet to the public on Saturday.  Would it not be possible to give people $1 temporary memberships to beat the tax problem?