Zinc pest - Ordering Lionel Parts

Unless something has changed, Lionel moves their old parts out to North Lima Trainworks. Usually Lionel's parts list has references to their site. But if you have a part number, I suggest checking directly with them.

I also suggest checking around with various parts dealers. Each parts dealer decides what parts he wants to have on hand. Maybe one of them has your truck side frames.

Regarding Zinc Pest: The manufacturers know what causes zinc pest and how to avoid it. There is absolutely no excuse for it to occur in modern day product.

OK - can someone tell me what a zinc pest is??

Zinc pest is sometimes called intergranular corrosion.

See the links

Paul

Castings contaminated with the element Zn at the time of manufacturing will deform over time,  It has been a familiar issue with toy trains for many years.  It ruins old and new engines, most notably probably old Standard Ga frames, 700E's and recently Weaver Troop Trains. I have had issues on all makes from couplers that crumble to smoke units that just crystalize and fall apart.

Buzz

Zn (Zinc) is the majority element in the alloy. It's Pb (Lead) that is the contaminant. This site will probably provide more information that most of us want to know about Zamac.

Looking up a definition I found that old Marklin toys exhibit the same issues. As it was defined as:

"Zinc pest is a form of inter-crystalline corrosion. The process is accelerated by the presence of moisture in warm air. Relative humidity of 65 percent and greater accelerates the process. In alloys not meeting strict purity standards, such as those that might be set by standards organizations, hydrogen (from the water) concentrates at the grain boundaries. This results in a cracking along the grain boundaries. It is very important that old /new metal models not be thermally stressed. It is especially important not to subject these models to the rigors of shipment since this can involve potential temperature extremes."

Another good reason to install a dehumidifier in your train room.

Thanx, guys - just never had a name attached to what I simply called "corrosion".

Zinc pest is not limited to toys, trains or otherwise.

For example, I have a bunch of garden lights that have zamac components. They have been outside year round for at least eight years. Some of the lights have developed the problem, others not.

These are shown as the rear trucks for the A Unit 24568 and are available. Will these work?

Pete

If possible, order the parts directly from Lionel or from another parts vendor.  I have had a number of issues getting NLTW to respond to phone calls, emails, etc.  I suspect that this is a side business for the owners.  Absolutely nothing wrong with that, except that the customers have to be serviced and I had one instance where I very much thought I was getting j#$%ked around.  Fwiw. 

That looks about right, (except I don't need the coupler). Thank you!

What I'd like to know, is how did you find that?  When I enter the part number you posted "620-4568-036", both with and without the hyphens, I get zero results.

RAL - thanks for the info, I thought it was odd that Lionel would list a third party directly in their search results, but not return any parts list or parts diagram.

Next to the "Search By:" pull down menu you have to change Product Number to Replacement Part Number.

Use Product number to find the parts for a particular engine or item, use Part number if you know what the part number is.

Pete

Pete - that worked! And I found the parts diagram for the A-unit too.  Thank you!

Alan

You must have been close. I just typed in 24568 for product number. I disregarded the older items as you found you would have to get them from North Lima, a last resort IMO.

You will note the sideframes are not offered as an individual item for this engine.

Pete

Just my opinion: he is better off getting the assembly anyway. The factory staking job is likely to be better than a home staking job unless he's had some practice.

So far lucky only my set of K-Line HW passenger car trucks have been victims of rot......and K-Line was still around and offered to send me new trucks if I did the work.....which I did.....

I thought these side frames were aluminum.  Anyway to know for sure?  I recently had the same problem with a brand new SuperChief.  Have not resolved it yet.  Will try to epoxy the side frame back into place.  Seems as though it may have not been properly fastened, or came off during it's trip from China.

I cannot think of any toy train parts that have been aluminum castings. Maybe one of the smaller companies, like Consoli?

Bob   -    I encountered the same problem you alluded to with my brand new santa fe FT 162 right out of the box (Chief set, 30178).  I contacted the retailer I bought it from, they advised send engine only back (at their expense) to be repaired/replaced.  I did, they replaced the side frame assembly, and advised it was improperly assembled (staking side frames to plate done badly) and they sent my engine back quickly and good as new.  It seems that this issue is not unheard of, but has nothing to do with "zinc rot".

Perhaps you can get some consideration from lionel or your dealer for your engine.

Steam Rules

"a country boy can survive!"      (Bocephus, 1981)

Thanks, that's the same set I bought.  Unfortunately, I bought it a couple of years ago, for my yet unborn grandson, and never opened the box until this year.  Now, I can't remember who I bought it from.  I think it was Trainz, but I can't be sure.  

When I repair the sideframes if there is not enough material left to re-stake I drill a hole and tap to accept a 4-40 screw. I use part number 630-8351-532 for the screw. Do not remove the stake but file the remaining flush with the top frame. The screws are flatheads and will not interfere when turning. I also use a little Loc-tite low strength purple on the threads. 

Bill 

I've had things take a couple weeks, but they always came.

Yeah, I use lead sometimes in scratch-bashing. I use it for weight (buy a roof vent at

H. Depot and cut it as you need it),and some casting work.

BUT, he best thing for casting is plain old solder from the hardware store - what I'm using

is the tin/antimony mix (no lead) because it's a harder metal. I do not know about the

health effects, if any, of tin and antimony.   

BUT (again) - I grew up in a world of lead-laced products (can anyone say "Ethyl"?) which had nothing to do with China. I didn't eat paint or lick my toys.

Most children do this only when very young and therefore not for very long. I could argue that the general behavior of my generation (I'm 66) was and is superior to the lead-free group. 

Let's not even mention the asbestos pad that I still use when a soldering torch is

involved. Again, do not suck on the asbestos pad...

We're better off without some of these things, but lead, etc., is not going to jump out of your closet and eat you.

====

Ever noticed that new cars have hardly any smell any more; haven't really since the mid-60's. Why?

- lead paint has a sweet odor and taste (the Romans used lead to sweeten wine, which explains so much about later behavior in certain emperors, you betcha)

- natural fibers and cushioning materials

- and, best of all, natural rubber in gaskets, door seals, mats and the like (this is why tire stores still smell wonderful - tires remain rubber)

- all these things combined into a heady mixture that still lingers in my subconscious.

- I bought a new Dodge Challenger this summer; the interior had/has no real odor at all.  

Update - I contacted Lionel by email this morning, they replied a few hours later, and arranged a discounted price on the replacement trucks.  We completed the order on the phone and I am very pleased with the courteous and timely way that it was handled. 

I'd like to add that I had a zinc pest problem with a MTH ABA set of the same vintage. It was worse because all three frames of the ABA set were affected (but not the trucks). MTH also responded in a way that shows they value their customers.

And my thanks to everyone here who responded with information and support. 

Overall I'm pleased with these two industry leaders.  What a great hobby this is, and I hope this is the end of zinc pest problems for me!

Alan

"I just don't know why kids today do this.  They must do this, because lead is banned everywhere!  When did this happen?  Is lead more tasty than, say chocolate, or bread, or milk?  I just don't understand."

 

Are you familiar with the medical condition known as "pica"?  It is called an eating disorder and is characterized by a person eating inappropriate items.  Here is the Wikipedia explanation, in part, that addresses your question about children who eat paint chips from a house's woodwork, as one example:

"Pica is more commonly seen in women and children, and in areas of low socioeconomic status.^[3] Particularly it is seen in pregnant women, small children, and those with developmental disabilities such as autism. Children eating painted plaster containing lead may suffer brain damage from lead poisoning."

 

Update - replacement trucks with die-cast side frames arrived from Lionel very quickly.

They are for the rear of the A-Unit FT Diesel and the truck frame is machined for mounting a motor.  I was able to use a Dremel to grind the die-cast side frames off and mount them on the old trucks using epoxy glue.  Of course those kind of repairs will never pass for "original", but it looks good to me and works well.

I do have a question about rear truck and coupler.  The original FT rear truck and the replacement have a small three conductor socket and what appears to be small circuit board that is mostly hidden.  It doesn't look like the rear coupler is operational.  But there are three wires (blue, brown, & pink) plugged into the coupler socket.

The front coupler on the FT has the familiar magnetic button operating coupler, and the catalog description describes only the front coupler as operating.

So what is the purpose of this three wire connector and small circuit board?

Looks like it has a hall effect speed sensor and a magnet that rotated on an axle.

Thanks Chuck!

Did a forum search for "hall effect speed sensor", and I have some reading and research ahead of me.  Never heard that term before you replied, but it must be related to the "TrainSounds" tech in this set from 2006.

Alan

Jerry

Mine had a side frame not connected to the front truck.  Upon inspection, I found that the cast side frame did not line up correctly with the truck frame.  I reshaped it with a couple of riffler files and used epoxy to reattach the ladder to the side frame, and when that was cured, I reattached the side frame to the truck frame.

I looks good, it's strongly attached, but I'm not sure we will be able to change the tires down the road.   

So far been lucky at my end. Question- If it is a problem with manufacturer, why aren't they held responsible with free replacement???? Why are we the customer held to pay for this?

Odd that only in Model Railroading, the consumer has to correct and pay for manufacturers errors/mistakes. Building models in my early years, broken or missing pieces were replaced. Have had Mattel Toys that were broken or didn't work right, yup, replaced at no charge. "N" Gauge engines, and even "HO" engines or even cars, that had problems, returned with manufacturers paying shipping and replacing with no cost to me. Even a gear that came apart, 2 years later. Completly replaced at no cost to me after it was seen that the problem was not created nor made by me. No excuse for consumer to pay for return shipping, nor getting replacement parts at Zero cost. Or if a problem shows up like ZINC rot, remake replacement parts at no cost to consumers.

Had to add that all.

Hall effect sensors are what automobiles first used for timing the spark (they use a more temperature insensitive method now...sensing a change in the reluctance of a coil). They are crystals that when biased with a voltage will pass a current in the presence of a magnetic field. So Lionel puts a magnetic eccentric disk on the axle and whenever the bulge comes nearest the crystal, a pulse of current flows. And of course the rate is proportional to the speed of the engine or car.

Strange how my 47 year old, Lionel Sears sets that sold for peanuts even back in 1965 and have been subject to the Heat and Humidity of Florida, Heat and Humidity plus Cold and Dryness of Texas, and having spent half their lives in a Hot Humid garage, have no such issues.

100% true.