ZW-L or Z4000. What would you buy?

For me the decision would be all about the sine wave. ZW is chopped, Z4 is smooth. All I have is Lionel and it is proven to smoke/run better on chopped sine.

Chris,

It would probably depend on the control system that you use.

As a TMCC/Legacy user, the ZW-L provides me with tighter integration than the z4k. The 4 built in power masters are addressable by the Lionel remote system for remote control of all 4 outputs.

The ZW-L has 4 outputs and costs $600 I believe.

The Z-4000 has 2 outputs and costs $400 or so.

 

If you are running up to maybe 500 feet of track using 2 TIU channels, you could go with a single Z-4000.

If you have more track than that, up to 1000 feet, and you are using 4 TIU channels, then you could use one ZW-L; or two Z-4000's.

 

Rod

Just my opinion, but I would NEVER spend that much money for a Z-L! My two Z4000 and two 180 bricks have worked just fine for more than 6 years.

The cheapest ZW-L's I've seen are going for slightly more than $600 while, albeit used, lightly used Z-4000's can be bought for $300 or half the price of a new ZW-L. That $300 difference can go a nice distance towards acquiring either a new locomotive, other train supplies or even a Z-4000 remote should you want to run command trains remotely.

I've had both.  No question.  The ZW-L.

The decision depends on your needs. If you are running two main lines and some accessories, with normal to moderately heavy power demands, a Z4000 is more than adequate. If you really need the extra 200 watts, the ZW-L starts to look better. Given the extra cost, I see it as justified only if you need the power. 

 

The ZW-L has two extra throttles, but they are very inconvenient for conventional operation, since they have tabs rather than handles. If you have main lines that will ONLY be used with command control, then you can set them and forget them and it's fine. They are also good for accessories that require adjusting the voltage for optimum operation. 

 

I prefer the digital voltage and amperage readouts of the Z4K over the analog dials of the ZW-L. Analog is cool and retro, but the big red numbers give you instant information. The ZW-L is better looking - I'd call it a Deco piece, while the style of the Z4K is more Brutalist. 

 

The chopped sine wave operation of the ZW-L is superior when operating a TMCC locomotive in conventional mode. I took a very close look at the Mike Reagan video and I did not see any operational advantage in command mode. 

 

You can use the Z4K for remote controlled conventional operation by getting a Z4000 remote control set or receiver. The receiver also works with a DCS remote. 

 

I use a Z4K at home and I am quite happy with it. I have four main lines, but I prefer to  have a separate throttle handle for each line, since any line may be used for conventional or command operation. For the other two lines I have a TW (Standard Gauge) and a K-Line Power Chief (0 gauge, short radius inner line mostly used conventionally). I'm quite happy with this setup, at least for the moment. 

 

Our museum has used Z4K's for over ten years and we like them fine. No plans to change. 

I run DCS and Legacy but have some Williams engines I like to run.  On my Layout were are only talking about 16'x8' and I have the old Post war ZW from when we were kids powering accesories only. I have 2 standard gauge loops and one O gauge loop with maybe another level added later. As cool as the new ZW-L looks I'm thinking it might be "over kill"  Not to mention the $700 price tag!

Chris

 

I think either one is a waste of money. For command two 180 watt bricks are all you really need costing around $200 for the pair. You do not really need throttles or the meters.  I would add an external breaker to the ZW and use it for conventional or command,nothing wrong with it if it is in good shape.

 

Dale H

I'm with Dale H. on this one. Just plug your 180W bricks into the DCS system and spend the rest on a new engines.

Scott Smith

Dale has made a good point.  I think anyone who runs just command can do great with the bricks.  If you need killer power, gang two 180 bricks to a TPC 400 and you have 20 amps and 360 watts to run your trains.  If you are a DCS guy also, hook your TIU to this setup in passive mode and you are in the big time power wise.

 

I do like the ZW-L and think it is an excellent product.  Remember the power output is 18 volts at 10 amps on the outputs.  The MTH Z4K runs about 22 volts.

 

I first saw and got to play with the ZW-L last September with Mike in Ohio and I was very impressed on how well it is made.  Mike Reagan told me this will be the real deal and anything he stands behind and likes is a winner.  For guys who still run the old postwar ZW can just swap out the existing transformer for a new ZW-L and get great power. 

 

I run the MTH Z4K transformers with great results.  If I was starting new, I would have to give this one some thought.  Getting back to Dale, his way is the way to go for command operators.  

Thanks for the input guy's. I think your right I'll stick with my bricks for now which are working fine the way they are.  If it ain't broke don't fix it!

Hello guys and gals......

 

I will stick with the Z4000 as mine is already paid for and its been around since 1998.

 

 

the woman who loves the S.F.5011

Tiffany

If I were just starting out I would definitely go for the ZW-L, since I am all TMCC and soon to have Odyssey installed. 

Currently I have an older post war ZW and a newer version ZW with 4x 180 bricks that are paired with two TPC-400's. 

I have nothing against the MTH product but it does not serve my needs and I have zero DCS equipped engines.

 

Norm Rish 

I have a Z4000 and just bought a ZW-L. I have been running my MTH engines with it using DCS for about a week now. So far they have played very well together. I am very impressed with the quality of construction, materials used, functionality, and overall "feel" of the ZW-L.

The major advantage that the ZW-L has over the Z4000 is that each throtttle on a ZW-L can power a seperate channel on a TIU. When there is a derailment, you only have to reset that throttle and only that particular channel is affected. With the Z4000, you have to power the entire transformer down (if only using one unit to power the layout) which of course shuts the entire layout down. Then you have to restart all the engines that were running after rebooting it. After awhile this got to be a real PITA for me.

Another advantage IMHO that the ZW-L has over the Z4000 is in the looks department. With it's art deco styling, softly lit analog meters, and blue illuminated Lionel logo it's real easy on the eyes. It has a retro-cool look to it that the Z4000 just can't match.

I, too, love the look and agree with everything you say.  In addition, I also like the fold-back voltage adjustment protection a lot.  I have several older trains that I run conventionally - multiple Pullmor motors and lots of incandescent lighted passenger cars, that want 11-13 amps starting out and only settle down below 10 amps once pretty near up to speed.  Starting them with the Z4k took very judicious use of slowly ramping up the throttle while watching the current meter to avoid tripping the breaker - and it often tripped anyway.  With the ZW-L its much easier as the fol back takes care of the excess current draw until the motors are spinning at a good clip.

All my transformers/bricks, Legacy base, TMCC Command base, and TIUs are mounted under the layout. Thus nobody can see them, so I don't care about appearance. 

All I can add to the above is I was an early purchaser of the Z4000 and my examples have given sterling service ever since I installed them. I've operated a variety of equipment from various eras and numerous manufacturers without problems.

 

Bob 

I think most people mount their transformers and power equiment in that way, below or out of site, and thus looks are not important.

 

It is the opposite with me.  My trainroom is reached by a stairway and as you proceed up, you see the edge of the layout annd helf for my power supplies right up ahead of you, with the ZW-L right in the middle -  this huge monolith with four glowing eyes and a soft blue "LIONEL" glowing.  It is impressive!

 

I had a Z4K for five years and it gave sterling service.  One big advantage is that it is easy to read the digital meter displays from much farther away.  But the ZW-L looks better, its chopped sine waves run trains conventionally al,ot better, and it has more power and more variable outputs.  Also, I like the feel of the throttle levers better.  

Chris,

 

I have both.

 

I used to get by with two Z4000’s powering my two TIU’s, but I really wanted more power. I thought about adding another Z4000 (mine have been fine), but for about twice the money I could get about twice the power out of one ZW-L in about half the footprint of a single Z4000. So I bought a ZW-L.

 

I now have the two old Z4000’s powering one TIU, and the ZW-L powering the other TIU, and they work great. I run DCS and Legacy, but no conventional.

 

In a nutshell: The ZW-L power output is about the same as that of two Z4000’s, but takes up half the space. The Z4000’s meters are easier to read than the ZW-L’s, but the ZW-L has a bit better regulation, in my experience.

 

George Brown wrote an excellent initial review of the ZW-L in OGR Run 263, and I posted some tests in this forum on February 13-15:

https://ogrforum.com/d...nt/13819431474667811

 

Good luck!

 

Alex

Gentlemen,

   I already have a Z4K and I love it, now I am deciding on whether to purchase

another Z4K or the new ZW-L, actually I am leaning toward another Z4K to run 2 post war ZW's and two Z4K's as my main power sourses, a Z4K and a ZW on each TIU. The ZW-L has no side receiver for the DCS.

PCRR/Dave

 

I am a little confused about the mention of sine wave power vs chopped sine wave power. When I was getting back into this about 4 years ago, my understanding (perhaps incorrect) from reading here on the Forum was that the chopped sine wave could be detrimental to some of the electronics of the command systems?

The Z1000 was mentioned in particular that running as a brick gave pure sine wave power but using the throttle control added the chopped wave and was to be avoided if possible.  What did I miss please?

My bottom line being a long passenger train operator is that the Z4K output is much higher than the ZW-L.  I do not care about two track outputs vs. four.   Both good products without a doubt. 

At two Z4000s (800W) for the cost of one ZW-L, the proven Z4000 is a better buy. Moreover, the Z4000 is easier to use and has better displays.

you may not need the throttles or gauges on a transformer now, but maybe 5-10 years in  the  future your kids/grandkids/etc: may have a layout that needs em. anyway , its the z-4000 for me since i have 99% mikes.-jim

Neither my own kids, nor our two grandkids ever even looked at the digital read-outs on the Z4000, as they just concentrated on what the train they where operating and how fast it was going. Now they just use either the DCS handheld or the Cab-1. I never had any "read-outs" on my first Lionel set back in 1946, either.

This is exactly what I do and it gives me great control over Legacy, Conventional and DCS with no worries about TIU limits or over-volting Legacy.

My Z-4000's run Legacy locomotives beautifully along with everything else.

Plenty of power and very flexible.

 

I love the way the ZW-L has the big, bold "Lionel" lit in blue.

$600 for another transformer with blue lights is steep, eh?

There are several 135W PH-1 transformers on eBay right now for $57 shipped. For my layout, I picked up a couple of these (last year).

 

We use a Z4000 on the club 20x24' modular layout. While operating even the largest trains, we seldom see current draws greater than 3-4 amps. Except for really large layouts, my thought is a large percentage of the transformers selected are just over-kill. Before we added DCS, I often ran my Z1000 w/ RCS RC w/o any power problems .

 

Gilly

 

Just my $0.02

I have never had a Z4000, but I really enjoy the ZW-L.  Before the ZW-L I used ZW's to power my railroad and I can tell you that after having used the ZW-L for awhile now I would not go back to the old ZW's.  Bo 

 

 

Please visit my website Bo's Trains at http://www.bostrains.com

Railhead53,

   So you think I should have 2 Z4k's and 2 ZW-L's powering my layout instead of keeping my old ZW's.  Now that might be something to consider.

PCRR/Dave

I'd go for the ZW-L in a heartbeat.  The ZW-L has the Z4000 beat in most respects, including coolness!

I'm not currently in the market for a transformer. But if I were, then I would get the ZW-L. In my opinion it beats any other transformer presently available. It has fantastic looks, has received amazing reviews, and has all of the features that I am looking for. The Legacy features alone are worth the asking price, plus it has the great benefits of a toroidal transformer (Quietness and efficiency.) and modern chopped-wave technology. (My CW-80s and TPCs have convinced me of the benefits of this technology.) The analogue dials are a very welcome feature too. 

I feel the new ZW-L will be putting many old ZW transformers out to pasture.  Operators will now get the looks and coolness of the old ZW but now it has much needed power the old transformers do not have.

For one, I am certainly glad the ZW-L is out....I can now get the older, more mundane Z4000 for a price I can afford. I have no problem with either one, it just comes down to what one can afford.

 

Rick

I can not imagine 2 loops run in conventional that a PWZW could not handle. Nothing wrong with the new ZWL , just very expensive and not really needed. there are less expensive options. The advantage of the chopped sine wave is misleading and way over blown IMO. I have an early release MTH Z4000,I only have that because I have PS1 locos and it simplifies clinks and clanks. The ZWL is most likely not compatible with PS1,so I will stick with pure sine wave.

 

Dale H

Originally posted by PCRR/Dave

 

Railhead53,

   So you think I should have 2 Z4k's and 2 ZW-L's powering my layout instead of keeping my old ZW's.  Now that might be something to consider.

 

I probably should have mentioned that I run only TMCC and Legacy equipment in command mode and have seen an improvement in the performance of my TMCC locomotives in particular.  The one ZW-L provides plenty of power for my 13' X 40' layout which is divided into two power districts.  Simply put, I feel more comfortable running my modern equipment using the latest in transformer technology.  At least to me that peace of mind has to account for something.  Bo 

 

Please visit my website Bo's Trains at http://www.bostrains.com

 

  

I have not extensively tested it, but I did try the ZW-L both controlling with the Legacy Remote and also via traditional handle control, and I got a PS1.0 engine to move and had control of whistle, bell, and direction. (obviously there is no built in functionality for the help with clinks and clanks that the Z4k helps with)

 

I will admit that I am slightly cautious minded in reading Southwest Hiawatha's post elsewhere in this thread indicating the chopped waves could damage PS1.0 electronics, so I 'm not sure how much I may tempt fate here. (or at least maybe I'll try it with a lesser engine as a test bed)

 

-Dave