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Thanks. Great detail, especially in terms of $ spent, but I haven't the time to watch it all now. When will it be in service pulling train rides out of Cumberland? Thanks.
Sgaugian posted:Thanks. Great detail, especially in terms of $ spent, but I haven't the time to watch it all now. When will it be in service pulling train rides out of Cumberland?
Not until they raise another $500,000 to $750,000. So,,,,,,,,,a couple of years, maybe?
Thanks.
Time for this week's installment of "we need more money"............ (Ever notice how every few months the amount needed changes)?
Don't get your hopes up for seeing that thing run anytime soon - if ever - .....................
In time for next session of the Maryland General Assembly which will start in January and end 90 days later. The Assembly has supported #1309 and WMSR before and the Governor has also been a supporter of the RR as well. While the state money is good, it also brings various strings such as spending plans and reports, which has apparently impacted the schedule. But any money is good money and perhaps now the RR can manage it better. It would seem to me the challenge is to convince the politicians they are making progress and there is light at the end of that tunnel.
And this might be their last chance.
MD's Republican Governor, a big supporter of economic development in western Maryland will be facing an election in November, 2018 with Democrat opponents from the Baltimore/DC area, who not be so keen to support conservative Western MD. Maryland is a strong blue state. Republican Governors usually don't make it past one term, but Gov. Hogan has high support numbers across the voter spectrum.
Bob
Looks like the UP Big Boy will steam first.
But odd I have not seen anything about the Beast in TRAINS. They were pushing a trip lead by it, I believe, last month......
And this video comes from the same guy that "suspended" the restoration only a few weeks ago. Ooh boy...
Dave Albright posted:And this video comes from the same guy that "suspended" the restoration only a few weeks ago. Ooh boy...
Not only that, the WMSR got rid of most of their own steam shop workers, in order to use "contractors". thus, the cost of restoration has virtually tripled. Thus, until additional funds are received, not much will be done on 1309.
bbunge posted:In time for next session of the Maryland General Assembly which will start in January and end 90 days later. The Assembly has supported #1309 and WMSR before and the Governor has also been a supporter of the RR as well. While the state money is good, it also brings various strings such as spending plans and reports, which has apparently impacted the schedule. But any money is good money and perhaps now the RR can manage it better. It would seem to me the challenge is to convince the politicians they are making progress and there is light at the end of that tunnel.
And this might be their last chance.
MD's Republican Governor, a big supporter of economic development in western Maryland will be facing an election in November, 2018 with Democrat opponents from the Baltimore/DC area, who not be so keen to support conservative Western MD. Maryland is a strong blue state. Republican Governors usually don't make it past one term, but Gov. Hogan has high support numbers across the voter spectrum.
Bob
Maybe it would be better for the Governor to ask the AG to see what is going on at that railroad.
Why is this similar to the Boston and Maine 3717 restoration @ Steamtown, and the Pennsy 1361 restoration, also very short on cash. You would think by now, with several restorations done, cost would be a bit more definitive. What do I know 
Banking and investment would look at the cash flow available from the tourist railroad v.s. the huge investment. Probably why you solicit more donations, banking wants nothing to do with this marginal investment. IMO.
Part of the contractor v.s. do-it-yourself, would be liability, one of the reasons, contractor cost of restoration is high(er).
Mike CT posted:Why is this similar to the Boston and Maine 3717 restoration @ Steamtown, and the Pennsy 1361 restoration, also very short on cash. You would think by now, with several restorations done, cost would be a bit more definitive. What do I know
Banking and investment would look at the cash flow available from the tourist railroad v.s. the huge investment. Probably why you solicit more donations, banking wants nothing to do with this marginal investment. IMO.
Part of the contractor v.s. do-it-yourself, would be liability, one of the reasons, contractor cost of restoration is high(er).
Most of the funding is in place for 3713. Don't lump it in with 1361 and 1309 please.
Wowak posted:Mike CT posted:Why is this similar to the Boston and Maine 3717 restoration @ Steamtown, and the Pennsy 1361 restoration, also very short on cash. You would think by now, with several restorations done, cost would be a bit more definitive. What do I know
Banking and investment would look at the cash flow available from the tourist railroad v.s. the huge investment. Probably why you solicit more donations, banking wants nothing to do with this marginal investment. IMO.
Part of the contractor v.s. do-it-yourself, would be liability, one of the reasons, contractor cost of restoration is high(er).
Most of the funding is in place for 3713. Don't lump it in with 1361 and 1309 please.
Absolutely correct! The 3713 "organization" now has VERY competent personnel, and a definite plan/direction. The drivers are currently at the Strasburg Steam Shop for complete rework.
The PRR K4s 1361 is a completely different and disjointed situation, and will probably never operate again.
Also a new tender tank and cab are being fabricated, and work on the stoker trough and various suspension parts are underway at the Steamtown shop. The timetable for completion is realistic. Perhaps most importantly, no tickets will be sold until test runs are complete!
I would like to see a flow chart using the critical path method. Listing items without such a chart is meaningless. I question the figures. I think the projected numbers in this video are far too low. At the hourly rate for a machinist in Maryland $10,000 goes "poof" in no time. So far, the engineering planning seems to have been by the seat-of-your-pants. I would like to see a written rehabilitation plan by a mechanical engineer familiar with steam engines and the C P M protocol before asking the legislature for money.
This might be something for a group like Ft. Wayne to consider. For a fee, have a well running organization check another's project to see if the project is sound. If not sound, why. This might stop issues before they start.
Dominic Mazoch posted:This might be something for a group like Ft. Wayne to consider. For a fee, have a well running organization check another's project to see if the project is sound. If not sound, why. This might stop issues before they start.
Good luck with THAT idea!
Hot Water posted:Dave Albright posted:And this video comes from the same guy that "suspended" the restoration only a few weeks ago. Ooh boy...
Not only that, the WMSR got rid of most of their own steam shop workers, in order to use "contractors". thus, the cost of restoration has virtually tripled. Thus, until additional funds are received, not much will be done on 1309.
A decision of which, does not make any sense. If Garner expects to run the locomotive and maintain it with contracted workers, then steam will never be economical and feasible at the WMSR. Firing the steam knowledgeable CMO Kevin Rice was an even dumber move if you ask me...
"Critical Path" boilerplate planning protocols are available for most standard projects but I can't find one for a steam locomotive build. Such "boilerplate" recognizes that you cannot simply say there are "x" number of hours of machining necessary at a rate of "y". Many tasks cannot be performed simultaneously, for example. You may need 2 hours of machining, 10 hours to move the part, another hour of machining, ten days to do something else, then another three hours of machining. CPM is a valuable planning protocol, taking into consideration shipping costs, sequential delays, inspection costs and time-down expenses. I would not authorize a single dollar for rebuild until a competent engineer prepared a CPM document.
Unfortunately, IMHO, the W&MSR is going to use 1309 as a cash cow, always begging for donations but never getting 'er done.
LLKJR posted:Unfortunately, IMHO, the W&MSR is going to use 1309 as a cash cow, always begging for donations but never getting 'er done.
That only works for so long... reference 1361 for example....
I'd love to see 1309 done. Here's why. There is a beautiful 4-8-4, Norfolk and Western 611, that is now, as in an old song, "all dressed up and no place to go". If done, this 1309, a big 2-6-6-2, will have its own rails and if done as well as Kevin wanted it, able to run three to four times a week.
I have been rethinking many of my ideas about an excursion rr. After I saw how dull the passenger cars looked in pullman green, even though it is the old WMRR color, and then saw how the public, not just the railfans, liked the circus paint on the 501, I think the WMSRR needs to kick back on the Western Maryland themes, and become the true Western Maryland Scenic. A bright and happy paint on the passenger cars will sell more tickets. If the WMSRR wanted to make money appealing to railfans, it will never show a profit. A bright and happy paint scheme looks good in the advertising, too.
I think with the right management, with a live snorting articulated, and dedicated to attracting folks who have never seen a steam locomotive before, and a better approach to color schemes, and being a true scenic railroad, they could run in the black.
After years of trips in the passenger cars, hanging around folks looking at 734 and admiring the awesome power of steam, and talking to many, many folks, it really isn't about railfanning, it's about an adventure, and being near Pittsburgh, Washington, Baltimore, plenty of people will come here. The steam loco has always been a draw, most folks I've talked to, had never seen a live steam engine!
There was a debate about what 1309 among railfans what she should wear on her tender..Chesapeake and Ohio, or Western Maryland. I think WMSR should become it's own railroad, and here is what I think should be on the flanks of 1309's tender!
In the appropriate colors to match the all black tender and locomotive!
And I agree with this:
A decision of which, does not make any sense. If Garner expects to run the locomotive and maintain it with contracted workers, then steam will never be economical and feasible at the WMSR. Firing the steam knowledgeable CMO Kevin Rice was an even dumber move if you ask me...
Mike Wilson
Ed
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This whole thing is like the comment Daffy Duck made at the beginning of the black blob attack in the cartoon short DUCK AMUCK:
What a way to run a railroad!
Basing an excursion railroad business model on a railfan audience will NEVER work. For the most part, railfans don't buy tickets, they just want to chase, shoot videos and complain about the lack of "authenticity" about whatever is running. It's the wrong audience.
It is the general public who are only casually interested in riding a train that is the audience here. They don't care about the history of the car they're riding in, what's on the side of the tender, or whether the livery on the consist is "correct" (whatever that means.) All they want is a nice train ride on an attractive, clean train.
Pullman Green and Tuscan Red were great colors for the railroads back in the day. They were dark, didn't show the dirt and didn't have to be washed very often. But they are HORRIBLE colors for a tourist train, precisely because they are dark and drab. Do you think it's a coincidence that tourist attractions like Disney World are loaded with bright colors? Pullman Green and Tuscan Red will not appeal to a modern, recreational audience.
It's truly a shame they don't have available what the Group that doing the N.C. & St.L has and that's the local professional musicians to do a couple of fund raisers to raise the money needed to do the whole job....Or at least that is some of their plans for raising the needed resto dollars................!
You are on the money Rich. Their business plan is plan stupid. They are in La-La land wasting money on "authentic" restorations. They had two baggage cars with doors that could open and provide a nice place for those in wheelchairs to ride and sold them. Thus losing handicapped access. Arghh!!. I can tell you from riding The route in the past they don't know how to pour water out of a boot by looking at the heel regarding providing a tourist "experience". The people who pay don't care if they have a historic car. They wasted a million dollars. And you are right on the money about the unattractive colors. The management has no clue regarding marketing a tourist attraction. Or in providing a tourist "experience".
Now I know i'm on the right track, Rich agrees with me. And to add that one more thing I mentioned..the 1309 has it's own rails...run 'er every weekend..no matter what CSX and NS are or are not allowing on their rails.
I'll add I was very sorry when "Man O' War" got sold. Shot a lot of video out of her open window.
Here is a photo I made of the 501 in her new scheme on her debut weekend. I took the ride to Frostburg that day, and got a lot of reaction from the riders. And, I sat next to a family who came from near Baltimore. They, and many others on the train where very impressed with the 501, as she had not been in the new colors in the advertisements they had seen only as the black 501. Very few folks who ride are railfans, only those few who do it because it helps the railroad.
Ed
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Do not knock ALL reds. Lionel had prewar red tinplate trains. The PW TX SP and SF F3's are/were popular, and they did have al least some red!
The WM did have the circus colors before the Chessie System, so that livery was real.
I did not "knock" the Circus Colors, or any reds. And that is the real scheme on the 501, my intent was to show how bright colors got the attention of paying customers. I think the red is great in particular on the WMSRR.
A takeoff of that scheme on the passenger cars would be quite effective, I think, to help the WMSRR make a little more money.
And on the wall above my computer is print number 70 of 150 prints by Charles Amos of three B&O Chessie system Geeps on Tray Run Viaduct. Wife loves it, Chessie scheme was always one of her favorites.
Speaking of red, the Santa Fe passenger F's were always my favorite locomotives so many years ago, even before I got my new -first-with-mange-traction- 2343 Lionels. Wonder how many tickets were sold by those beautiful photos and artwork in LOOK, LIFE, and other magazines of the era? I can easily drum up the vision of lovely F's trailing a sparkling stainless steel consist across the arid west!
Ed
Well, everybody has an opinion about 1309 and they all stink, including mine! 😳
Rich mentioned that people don't ride tourist trains for the "authenticity" and he is correct. I rode from Akron to Pittsburgh behind a "C&O" Berk, yeah right. Hey, I knew that the sand and steam domes were "out of place" but it still was a great ride. But how would the FWHS feel about painting 765 pink with Lionel Lines on the tender for the "Lady Lionel" Special. I guess if it made money, they would be OK with it.
I think the WMSRR should keep 1309 as a Chesapeake & Ohio not because I am a C&O fan, but to preserve history. The WMSRR does have great handicap access. Kudos.
I know it all comes down to money, but if you do it right, you can have both historical accuracy and ridership.
Larry "Free 614 from The Green!"
Well,there was one trip with a UP 4-8-4 lettered for Lionel Lines 844!
Yeah. Fifteen minute wait for a bathroom because toilets in station inoperative. "It's hard to get a plumber on weekends," comments the WMSR representative. They know exactly how to create a positive customer experience.
Tommy posted:... they don't know how to pour water out of a boot by looking at the heel ...".
The actual witticism, as I heard growing up in rural Missouri anyway, is: "Couldn't figure out how to pour pis out of a boot even with directions printed upside down on the heel!" But I digress. There are two successful steam railroads I'm familiar with: the Boone & Scenic near Des Moines, IA, and the 1880 Train in Rapid City, SD. Both have survived for decades, through management and engine changes. They both understand who their primary clientele is (families) and what they want (an affordable experience with the family.) Both programs are very serious about steam and railroading, but they aren't "anal" about it. They understand if they don't treat it like a business, they won't be around long. If I were ever in charge of anything like that, the first places I'd be studying would be the Boone & Scenic and the 1880 Train.
It saddens me to hear of the WMSR's mostly self inflicted wounds. I've personally met about half a dozen of their people and found each to be outstanding! It's hard for me to understand how things could go so wrong for an organization that had so much going for it. Maybe their best bet now is to simply buy or lease a working steam engine so they don't lose their customer base? It would be a tragedy if the WMSR was allowed to wither away.
Kent in SD
Boone & Scenic is an outstanding operation. They cross the "t's" and dot the "i's". Top shelf. Thanx for correcting me on the "boot" quote! 😊
Kent:
To the two successful tourist steam train venues, I would add the Strasburg Railroad. They are competing with similar venues in the mid-Atlantic region yet seem to be doing very well.
Curt
I would add Nevada Northern in Ely. I went over there in Feb 2014 and the photo weekend was excellent. Photos are here : https://clarityphotos.smugmug.com/Trains/Ely-Nevada
Yeah. Nevada Northern is nirvana!!! In New York a company offering bus tours called "The Ride" pays actors to mysteriously appear along the route doing crazy things. Silly things like acrobatics in the street. Tourists come back with memorable stories. There is ample land near the Frostburg Station. A simple nature trail walk would be nice. Making a small pond for children's fishing has been done at many amusement parks The difficult-to-negotiate steep hill at Frostburg is an issue for the elderly. I haven't been there lately but for years there were areas unsuitable to move a wheelchair. As I mentioned, the attention paid to the handicapped is abominable. There needs to be something more than watching the turntable in Frostburg. An overnight package would be nice, with a quality hotel room. Currently the ride is not associated with an overnight stay, except as a do-it-yourself operation. Strasburg has had great success with a miniature railroad at the station. At first I didn't like this idea, but the children who visit love it. There is ample land available for this to happen. I thought the team track should not have been pulled up but left for static display of another steam locomotive - or the railroad crane they own and store someplace. How about a chain-drive Mack parked next to the station. Eye candy. Or how about a shooting gallery with .22's. Or an area for axe throwing - now becoming very popular in bars - or a range with bow and arrows? How about a beauty contest or a singing contest to be watched? Or a 4H exhibition? Or a weekend with the military vehicle collectors club - who have periodic get togethers - with a military train for veteran's day or memorial day? Arrangements for overnight camping. A semaphore signal that could be operated and changed by children? Activities to generate traffic from the general population ?
Thank you to all who are restoring the 1309 back into steam. Every group that puts a steam engine back in operation is to be commended.
I haven't restored any steam locomotives, but I have been on teams that have restored and upgraded worn-out jet aircraft taken from long term storage. There are traditionally lots of unknowns that cost money over budget when restoring complex machines, so I am empathetic to the need for more $$$ to complete the 1309.
As for most of the replies to the 1309's management, they are full of way too much pessimism.
Bobby Ogage posted:
As for most of the replies to the 1309's management, they are full of way too much pessimism.
Well,,,,,their track record over the past few years seems to warrant such "pessimism", especially from those people knowledgable in the steam locomotive repair/restoration/rebuild and maintenance field.
Hot Water posted:Bobby Ogage posted:
As for most of the replies to the 1309's management, they are full of way too much pessimism.
Well,,,,,their track record over the past few years seems to warrant such "pessimism", especially from those people knowledgable in the steam locomotive repair/restoration/rebuild and maintenance field.
Warranted imho
There are 28 feature films under camera in New York this week and a dozen tv series. I would bet my pet goldfish the muck-a-mucks at WMSRR don't even know the name of the union having jurisdiction over selecting locations, but have devoted hundreds of hours to determine the right shade to paint their cars and the correct type of speed lettering. If 1309 were operable it would be the only large engine with east coast jurisdiction. There are many engines away from the motion picture capital - which is New York - but it would cost a tremendous amount of money to get a union crew and cast there. Again, they have DESTROYED the team track opposite the station for no good reason. There should have been a static display of another steam engine there. Eye candy. Or a freight. The third track had significant value for motion picture staging purposes. A track for a second train in the land of make-believe. Not only as part of a "set". Perhaps to keep passenger cars and/or box cars with air-conditioning for rental as offices and holding areas for talent, dressing and make-up rooms for cast and crew. Take a box car. Put linoleum on the floor. A wooden stair. Plug in door. A bit of furniture. Air conditioner and electrical outlets. You have a $700--$1200 a day rental for commercials or movies. Think renting eight-ten cars for this purpose. For a seven day shoot $50-$75,000. income, just for crew space rental - not including fees for the location and train rental. Right now there is no room for this on existing trackage. Naada. There WAS room. All gone. Poof. And the new plans for extending the siding do NOT include plans for restoring the team track Who designed this "expansion" plan? A nine year old? .I had lunch today with a guy who selects locations for movies - he never heard of the WMSRR - you people have done an outstanding job of getting the J.B. Powers award for being "Clueless in Cleveland". I read their business plan. La-la land. The station, trackage and turntable area should have been viewed as a potential movie set - which Jerry Jacobson did magnificently with the Age of Steam trackage, yard , signaling and period structures.
And then was the total burning of tax money to reconstruct a "genuine" WMSRR business car. Ooooh.... Yes.....TAX money.
Or "OPM" - other people's money.
Yet you beg for more. To play with a big model railroad. The bathroom facilities at Frostburg are inadequate! Hello. Earth to the WMSRR. That's a no- brainer.
You should have gone to jail for selling "Man-0f-War. And had state and federal funding pulled. The hell with handicapped veterans and the elderly in wheelchairs.
And every day 1309 is not in service represents a significant loss in revenue. Get a good book (or any book) on "Engineering Economy", comparing and contrasting fiscal alternatives - and the monetary value of time - and the effect of delay in acomplishing ends. The ship is about to broach and the helm is spinning wildly. The crew is busy munching jellybeans and watching re-runs of Captain Kangaroo.
Oooooh! After all these years you STILL don't have a simple production turn-key package ready-to-go for motion pictures listing hotels, restaurants, motels, airports, car and truck rental, local historic vehicle list and availability, and local production logistical support. Nor even thought about supplying the Frostburg station with an electrical supply to support motion picture work- a biggie - You don't have enough free amps on location to run my kitchen fan - yeah we use generators - when needed. And the garbage station and turntable viewing modifications lighting and signage designed by space-cadet art students instead of maintaining a 1930's ambience. If I were younger I'd bid to buy the whole operation. And I'd make money. I'd make enough to pay everyone a decent salary and make money and create new jobs for the good citizens of- Frostburg. But wut do I know - just an old man closer the end then the beginning -
Oh! Time to feed my goldfish. Bye.
P.S. - If I couldn't come up with a meaningful sound business plan to get a 30 year 3 million dollar loan to restore the team track with another inoperable steam locomotive (I could locate one for this purpose in between ten and fifteen minutes) on display, make 1309 operational within six months, set up proper production support facilities for motion pictures, fix up four to five box cars with interiors as ready-to-go production support offices, set up equipment to support motion pictures , and produce a revenue plan, I'd turn in my brain.
And when the team track is back,, after firing the idiot that decided to remove it, park ten box cars (or more!!!) there with tables rented for big weekend flea market action. Or a gun show.
Every single parked boxcar a rentable income-producing entity. Tasty home-made gravy free and clear.
. -A new concept called: "The Railroad Mall!!!
. Eight tables per car (on both sides) at $50-$100 income per table. Per day. Do the math. If this won't bring in over $100,000 every summer (probably more), I'm a monkey's uncle. A potential for $200,000 per year, Instead, you are begging for dimes from children. Because the cars can be locked vendors won't have to remove valuable goods at night. Nor worry about weather damaging their merchandise. Put removeable stairs on the side facing the woods so people will keep the train illusion from the station. I would bet you would have the most successful mall in the state. You might even add a fourth siding to add another ten cars and operate a dining car snack bar. Plus have the value of a rail yard for motion picture purposes. A great place for surplus circus cars. You would attract vehicular traffic and traffic on the rail line and money from rental space. Wire in power and water and you have a 24/7 365 day operation. Add a boxcar filled with pinball machines and video games.
Box cars filled with historic exhibits. On the restored team track.
How much did it cost to remove the team track and roadbed, hire an architect and pave the right-of-way for "improved bicycle access". $100,000. Oh well. "OPM".
How about a paintball rental range in the nearby woods?
Or an orienteering course.
And a corall with a few animals. Maybe a turn-of the century railway expeess truck.
How about a half-dozen four-wheeled put-puts to be rented as a you-drive it supervised convoy, to be turned on the table for the return trip? Fairmont speeders in good shape are available from $2,500 - $5,000. It need not cost you a cent. Allow people who have them lease them to the WMSRR for a portion of the revenue. Many owners would jump for that opportunity. And get a tax write off. Wow. That's what we do for those who rent historic vehicles to movies. In addition to rental fees provide them with a certificate for tax write-off. As an alternative plenty of people would pay or banks would loan to amortize purchase of such equipment. I mean... there would be actual revenue coming in. As part of the package arrange for a gourmet meal at a nice restaurant in Frostburg during the stopover. 😚 Let the local business ventures "wet their beak". A ride at the controls of a speeder! 😊A perfect birthday or graduation gift for a teenager. Issue "engineer" certificates for the motormen (or women). Why not let them drive? Why isn't that cash cow in your business plan? Duh.......
All that permanent artsy-schmatrzy ugly safety fencing around the turntable is an eyesore from a motion picture standpoint. 😣Arggghhhh!!!!! It CANNOT look like a period roundtable. Period. But it's all solidly set in concrete. Didn't anyone think the safety fencing had to be removed if you were using the table as a rental location for a movie? 🤔 Instead of a rentable asset you have ungotz. Incredibly poor planning. Why wasn't another track extended from the turntable for a display item? There was room. And I don't like the permanent modernistic outdoor seating installed at the station at great expense. It doesn't "read" 1920's. Of course not. Ambience. The wrong ambience. Like the dozens of modern street signs with reflective lettering everywhere - at the station - near the tracks - around the turntable. Welcome to La-La land. Was the architect for this project on drugs? Perhaps the governor's girlfriend? - The Shadow may know.
Last but not least perhaps set up a small-gauge train ride within a rock's throw of the Frostburg station. 7 1/2 inch..or 18 inch...
And a nature trail, of course...
Maybe a miniature golf course set up like those popular in the1920's. Another potential movie set. And a cash cow.
Of course nobody at WMSRR has ever heard of the "Red Book", that contains the e-mail addresses and phone numbers and addresses of every advertising company in the United States, Which is where you want to go if you want to sell your location for commercial production purposes. Which you can purchase, To send a production package to them via an attachment with images of your equipment and the other stuff I mentioned above. Plus the box-car rentals for production offices. That is, when you get your very flakey act in order - if that is at all possible. Maybe dinosaurs will parachute into Times square next New Year's from flying saucers wearing red capes giving out chocolate chip cookies? Alternatively, you might consider using the Vulcan mind-meld to make them aware of your existence. It worked for Spock.
Ohhh, please mister taxpayer...give me your hard-earned money! Waaaahh!!!
Wanna play with my big model railroad!!!!
