Wiring Dual 153IR's to operate one signal light. Can it be done without relays?

Thank you Stan and all the others who have contributed to this topic!

Stan, if you are still following this thread, here is the pdf of the manual for the first version of the 153IR that I bought, dated 1/01. I scanned the cover for it plus the cover of the later version dated 11/02 just for comparison. But the manual page by page scan is for the earlier 1/01 version.

Rod

Attached is a video clip showing the crossing signals controlled by the two tandem 153IR's in action. As described a few posts earlier in this thread. Please don't be too harsh about my somewhat crude attempts at sceniccing; it's not my strong suit for sure!

Rod

Thanks Rod!   Slowly but surely the pieces to the puzzle are coming together.

Some interesting tidbits from your 1-2001 manual:

1. A degree in Nuclear Physics will be helpful to understanding how to hookup the 153IR.

2. When you first turn on this version, both the NO and NC turn on for 3 seconds...at the same time.  Does anyone following along recognize this behavior?  This suggests this version does NOT use a relay inside.  Can you hear the tell-tale relay "click" sound when triggering?  For example they could have used triacs to turn on both NO and NC at the same time.  Point being this would restrict this version to AC-only operation.  I'll need to make a mental note as the more recent 153IR versions can be DC-powered which can be useful in some applications.

3. And now I see what others have mentioned in passing about the lack of marking on the power inputs.  The manual essentially says polarity is irrelevant since this is AC.  This can/will be a problem for applications that use more than one 153IR such as the topic of this thread!  The use of the terminology COM1 and COM2 to refer to the two AC power signals is an accident waiting to happen. 

4. I did not see or might have missed any reference to the behavior of the 153IR turning off by itself if the trigger persists.  I was not clear if this was ever a designed-in behavior or a known error in some batch of units or ???.  I can imagine there might be an application where you want an accessory to turn OFF (so as not to overheat for example) if the train stops in front of the 153IR for an extended period.

Stan I dont use this /01 one version on my layout anymore. I think it is safely stored away in its box,  so I can't readily locate it to test your questions out. I replaced it early on with a pair of the /02 versions, which don't timeout if the train stops in front of the controller. The one I opened up years ago was the latter /02 version and it for sure uses a smallish 2 amp spdt relay. I'll see if I can find any pictures of the innards.

I agree with your concern regarding extended activation of some accessories. It's a case of user beware (and sensible) I guess!

Rod

I have photos of the innards of at least 2 earlier versions courtesy of member Charly from about 5 years ago.  In this OGR thread we were trying to troubleshoot an apparently "stuck-ON" relay.  Both the versions shown used relays.  Unfortunately, I don't see any notes correlating the 153IR revision date with the photos or markings on the boards or enclosures.

I realize it's boxed up, but the version I'm most curious about is the 2001 which I'm thinking might have used triacs instead of a relay.  I think it interesting that some engineer chose to simultaneously power both NO and NC for 3 seconds as a power-on self-check.

If this were the case (triacs instead of relay), opening one of these early 153IR versions to make dtrainmaster's modification to isolate the outputs from the power will not find much joy.

I may get ambitious Stan and see if I can find my early 153IR. I am fairly sure its around here somewhere, but I am also sure I have not laid eyes on it in at least 15 years?

Rod

Say what you will about the 153C contactor-plate occupancy detector...

but it's WYSIWYG.   You don't need a degree in Nuclear Physics to understand how the NO and NC terminals are wired up.

OK so I got curious and had a look. Guess what; all 153IR boxes were right where they should have been, right in a large box marked controllers/signals. Love it when stuff is where it should be. Here is a pic of a 2002 version, still in it's box:

No surprises here, terminals are marked as expected for the second run version.

Then I had a look at the two units that I have on the layout. They are both the same and here is what they look like:

I believe this layout jives with the 2001 manual that I scanned above. So it looks like they are the first run originals, and my plan was to change them out to the 2002 version, but (can you believe it?) I never got around to it! My bad. I didn't feel like taking one of these apart to see if it has a relay or triacs, but guess what? When activated, and again when it times out, there is the unmistakeable click of relay activation. So they are relay operation for sure.

So then I tested what happens if a train stops in front of one. As expected for the first run, the sensor times out and the crossing signals all cease functioning. So I guess I either have never noticed this happen, or just said who cares?

One bonus to all this is I found several other interesting things in said box, that I forgot I even had. Just like Christmas morning!

Rod

@Rod Stewart posted:

I believe this layout jives with the 2001 manual that I scanned above. So it looks like they are the first run originals, and my plan was to change them out to the 2002 version, but (can you believe it?) I never got around to it! My bad. I didn't feel like taking one of these apart to see if it has a relay or triacs, but guess what? When activated, and again when it times out, there is the unmistakeable click of relay activation. So they are relay operation for sure.

So then I tested what happens if a train stops in front of one. As expected for the first run, the sensor times out and the crossing signals all cease functioning. So I guess I either have never noticed this happen, or just said who cares?

...

So it appears in your photo above that you have a signal connected to both the NO and NC terminals of this first run original.  So presumably NO lights Red, and NC lights Green?  Per the manual you scanned/posted, both NO and NC terminals are simultaneously activated for 3 seconds as a power-on self-test.  Does this happen?  I'm baffled how they do this if you're hearing a relay-like "click" when it's triggered! 

Yes, I realize they could be using two SPST relays (instead of 1 SPDT relay) but I find this hard to believe.  Now I'm really confused! 

Hah Stan, you think you're confused? Welcome to my world. I can't comment as to whether both NC and NO are activated for the first 3 seconds after power up or not. I may have to test that out next.

I am surprised no one asked why the two NC connections are wired together in my sketch posted earlier. They don't connect to anything except each of the 153IR NC connections. My plan was to possibly use the NC connections for green block signals as you suggest. But currently only the NO contacts do anything, and they only actuate the 4 different led road crossing signals at the two road crossings you see in the video posted earlier. Often when wiring things up I will run spare wires that may get used in the future, because it is no more difficult at the time of installation, but a real PITA to come back and add later. Often I just bring them to a terminal block and terminate them there.

Rod

OK.  I get it.  Yes, your diagram earlier showed you were only using 2-wire signals which means connecting the NC outputs of multiple 153IRs is benign.

So then the question is does the first-version 153IR turn Red (i.e., activate or flash) for 3 seconds when you first apply power?  And since you apparently have more modern versions on the layout, do any of them momentarily activate the Red (NO) output on powerup?

Stan, to your 1st question "......does the first-version 153IR turn Red (i.e., activate or flash) for 3 seconds when you first apply power? "

Answer: When these are first powered up the relay closes the NO contacts, so all crossing signals operate for the full length of the delay setting; much longer than 3 seconds. Put another way, it's as if the signal has been triggered by a passing train. This happens with every power up cycle.

To your 2nd question " And since you apparently have more modern versions on the layout, do any of them momentarily activate the Red (NO) output on powerup?"

Answer: I don't actually have either of the newer 2002's on the layout. They are in their boxes. I may bench test one of them to find out, but I am quite doubtful since the manual for them makes no reference to that. I suspect they operate as above.

Rod

Stan, I think you're missing one thing. The manual's text said triggered for 3 seconds. I took this as meaning the NO and NC outputs switched as they should.

Edit: I read it again, now I'm not sure - it is saying both things.

-------------------

I've made an additional 153 IR application sheet with two more diagrams. One diagram shows a different connection scheme for the C-to-ACC GND version shown on my first sheet. The other diagram is for the version in the 71-4111-250 1/01 manual.
But I need some additional information, taken directly from a functioning unit of this type, before finalizing it. If Rod could oblige us and check a few things it would help.

Dave

Dave what did you have in mind?

Rod

Rod, here's what I need. With the 153 IR powered ON, not triggered, and nothing connected to it except the AC input to the Power Supply terminals, what do you measure in relation to the following:
1) between COM 1 and COM 2, AC or DC ?
2) voltage between NC and COM 1 ?
3) voltage between COM 2 and the left Power Supply terminal ? (if AC from test 1)
4) voltage between COM 2 and the right Power Supply terminal ? (if AC from test 1)

Depending on the readings you get, there may be additional questions.

Dave

I need to go out for awhile, will check back later.

OK Dave; got some numbers for you.

First, my supply voltage is 14.3 VAC. Also be aware that these tests were done with Com1, NC and NO connected per my earlier wiring diagram. But measurements were done after the timeout; ie there was no load and the NO contacts were open.

1) between COM 1 and COM 2, AC or DC ?  14.3 VAC
2) voltage between NC and COM 1 ?          14.3 VAC
3) voltage between COM 2 and the left Power Supply terminal ? (if AC from test 1)  0.0 VAC
4) voltage between COM 2 and the right Power Supply terminal ? (if AC from test 1)  14.3 VAC

So it appears that Com2 and the left power terminal are internally connected.

Hope this helps, Rod

Is it practical for you to measure the AC voltage between COM1 and NC for the few seconds when you FIRST turn on power?  I'm back on the notion that this first version of the 153IR applies power to NO and NC simultaneously for seconds when you first apply power.

Stan, the voltage between Com 1 and NC is 4.90 VAC for the entire 20 seconds or so that the relay is powered (NO closed, as if triggered), then it returns to 14.3 VAC after the relay returns to NC. Nothing discernible happened after the first 3 seconds of power up.

Rod

@Rod Stewart posted:

...

So it appears that Com2 and the left power terminal are internally connected.

Right... which differs from other versions in terms how the 2 input power wires (on the 2-terminal left block) are routed to the 2 output power wires (left 2 of the 4-terminal right block).

@Rod Stewart posted:

Stan, the voltage between Com 1 and NC is 4.90 VAC for the entire 20 seconds or so that the relay is powered (NO closed, as if triggered), then it returns to 14.3 VAC after the relay returns to NC. Nothing discernible happened after the first 3 seconds of power up.

Oh joy (sarcasm).  So it doesn't behave per the manual.

Thanks though for participating in the snipe hunt.

… You've got to know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
And know when to run…

Kenny Rogers (The Gambler)

I think it's time to RUN! 

Stan, "You can run but you can't hide"

I may get ambitious and swap in the "newer" 2002 versions in place of the first run 153IR's and see if there is any difference in operation. Might be interesting. I am still waiting on some OshPark pcbs needed for a couple of projects, so messing with these 153IR's will fill in some time.

Rod

@Rod Stewart posted:

Stan, the voltage between Com 1 and NC is 4.90 VAC for the entire 20 seconds or so that the relay is powered (NO closed, as if triggered), then it returns to 14.3 VAC after the relay returns to NC. Nothing discernible happened after the first 3 seconds of power up.

Rod

I knew something did not make sense with this 4.9 VAC. So I re-measured this, but this time with the NC disconnected from my wiring, and it came up with 0.3 VAC; call it zero. And it still goes to 14.3 VAC after the delay times out and the relay reverts to NC closed. No difference after or before 3 seconds from power up though.

So the weird voltage was something coming back from the NC connection of the parallel wired 153IR. This wire is not connected to anything else along the way.

Rod

Out of curiosity, about how long is/was the wire going between the NC terminals?  And did it run along or nearby any AC wires (whether track power, ACC power, etc.)?

Also, I assume you're using a modern digital multimeter?

Rod, thanks for doing the test, but it really needs to be done with the wires disconnected from the outputs. I am afraid that the NC terminal is being back-fed from those wires, even if not directly connected to something else. You could be getting a voltage reading because of the sensitivity of your meter. Please re-run tests 2, 3, & 4 in that manner, then preform one more step. Swap the two power supply wires and re-run the tests. I am trying to eliminate something here that I don't want to get into if it doesn't exist.
Stan, if you look at the sheet I previously posted, the first diagram shows the ACC PWR terminal (same location as the COM 2 terminal) connected to the A, left power supply terminal. The second diagram shows the ACC GND terminal (same location as the COM 1 terminal) connected to the U, left power supply terminal.

Dave

Looks like you did the first part while I was writing.

I put both the 2001 and 2002 versions side by side on the bench today and did some continuity checking. The attached pdf is marked up to show the internal connections in red. Note the left one is the 2002, and the right one is the first run 2001. Obviously the NC connections are in the non-triggered state only. In both cases when the relay is triggered, the connection to NC is broken, and the connection to NO is made, as expected.

This info may lend to our knowledge base, or not!

Rod

@stan2004 posted:

Out of curiosity, about how long is/was the wire going between the NC terminals?  And did it run along or nearby any AC wires (whether track power, ACC power, etc.)?

Also, I assume you're using a modern digital multimeter?

Kind of what I was thinking Stan. The white NC interconnect wire certainly does run over/under/beside a vast array of wires enroute between the two 153IR's.

Dave, the info I just posted above may answer what you are curious about. Let me know.

Rod

Rod, your marked-up pg.5 of the 2002 version manual doesn't look correct, in regards to the A-U terminals.

Note the references on these pages.

Are you absolutely sure of the continuity readings for the A and U terminals? According to the text in this manual, when referencing ground, U should go to ACC GND. Are you sure that the version you tested was an A-U version? The version that Stan showed earlier was a U-A.

Dave

@Dtrainmaster posted:

Rod, your marked-up pg.5 of the 2002 version manual doesn't look correct, in regards to the A-U terminals.

Note the references on these pages.

Are you absolutely sure of the continuity readings for the A and U terminals? According to the text in this manual, when referencing ground, U should go to ACC GND. Are you sure that the version you tested was an A-U version? The version that Stan showed earlier was a U-A.

Dave

Dave, I think the drawing I attached for the '02 unit looks just like the one you have shown above. A on the left, U on the right. What am I missing? Note the date of 4/02 on your page 3 above. My manual is dated 11/02, so I guess it is updated. Maybe your manual is wrong?Why not check your 135IR and see what you find? I believe that the 2015 version has A & U reversed, but I have none newer than 2002.

And U connects to ACC PWR; not ACC Gnd. I can recheck them, but what I show in my earlier post above jives with a continuity check I did some 14 years ago, and I just rechecked it today on the bench. Unless I have one that is internally mis-wired or something weird.

As an aside, it would be really nice if Lionel would settle on ONE design and hookup system for these things someday. Maybe the 2015 version is the final?

Rod

Rod, the manuals I referenced were taken from this thread and the mfg.'s website. I have no units to look at. I think that if Stan or I had the three variations in our possession they would have been opened and dissected by now, along with an internal diagram made. Good catch on the date you pointed out, that was possibly for another change made.

If U (common/ground/U) connects to ACC PWR, then the actual output goes against usual accessory terminal language.

If that is the way that all, or even part, of the A-U variation was made, then the diagram I made is incorrect for those units.

Dave

I hear you Dave. And I agree it's kind of strange that The A terminal connects to ACC Gnd and U connects to ACC Pwr. That flies in the face of Lionel's standard transformer nomenclature for the entire PW period and beyond. But there you have it. I can only report on what I have found. Maybe that's why the A and U posts on the 2015 units are switched? Could it be that simple? If so, why did it take 13 years to do?

What I can say for sure is that today I installed one of the 2002 units on the layout (in place of a 2001 unit), using the internal wiring as I sketched it, and it works exactly as expected. And unlike the 2001 units, it does not power up in triggered mode. It wakes up in non-triggered mode, which I much prefer.

Rod

Here FWIW is a pdf of the 11/02 manual for the 153IR that came with one of the two 2002 units that I have. I believe this supercedes the manual dated 4/02.

Rod

Rod, thanks for the help on this wonderful journey. If only we had the ability to travel back in time to Frankenstein's laboratory, we could see how this 153 IR evolved.
As far as transformer markings go, a postwar ZW shows U as Common, whereas my LWs have A as the Common bus and U as the Variable output.

Dave

Due to the fact that there appear to be several variations of 153 IR controllers, and different instruction manual dates for some versions, along with conflicting terminology, I have decided to pull the (2) application diagrams and corresponding information that I posted earlier. The copy of the pictorial diagram that Stan posted of the unit he opened, and I marked the modification on, has remained.
Although the modification allowing full use of the relay is still able to be preformed, the number of variations involved requires the ability to determine which of the ACC or COM terminals, and which of the Auxiliary Power Supply terminals, are internally connected to Relay Common. This also affects how the outputs correspond to Transformer Common/Track Common/Layout Common Ground.
If at a later date, simple but accurate diagrams, like the one that Stan posted of the unit he opened, are made of at least the 3 known variations (A-U, U-A, Power Supply - for auxiliary input) I will re-post application drawings based on those.

Dave

Yes, hopefully we will get to the point where you'll feel comfortable re-posting your diagram but it is a GOOD IDEA!

This application comes up like clockwork on OGR...seems more so for the 5-wire crossing gates than the dwarf signal.  In other words, 2 153IRs, one on each side of a grade crossing.  And in each case the "answer" is the external relay for $10-20 off-the-shelf, or $5-10 if willing to do a little wiring and mess with eBay/Amazon modules, or <$5 if able to solder and work at the component level such as diodes and such.  But in the big scheme of things, since the 153IR is $45.99 MSRP, I suppose if you have two of them in the first place, then $10-20 for an external "arbitration" relay (that's what I've called it in OGR threads) is a non-issue to get them to "play-well" with each other!

The reality though is that the vast majority of OGR readers want a "plug-and-play" solution and very few would have the time to work thru, in this case, determining which version of the 153IR they had...then opening it up, then possibly cutting a PCB trace, and so on.

153IR RESOLUTION; ALL IS NOT LOST!!

Today I put both my 2002 versions on the bench side by side and checked continuity, expecting no surprises. GUESS WHAT; they are not the same. One is wired with the strange A-U to ACC Pwr and ACC Gnd, as posted above, and the other is wired just like both the 2001 versions. So I tore them apart to see what is different, here is what I found. Notice the wiring in the red circles. This is right underneath the power input terminals.

Sure enough the one on the left (the one I first checked) has the red and black wires reversed from the one on the right, and clearly wrong according to the colors silkscreened on the pcb. Obviously a glitch in the assembly process. So the easy fix was to swap the wires on the one on the left, which makes them both the same, and now the continuity checks of both match up with the continuity of the 2001 versions. Yahoo! Consistency is a great thing.

Here is a pic of the board topsides. Even though these two were bought at the same time, from the same supplier, and have manuals both dated 11/02, clearly they are from a different assembly lot. Various wire colors are different, and one pcb is rev CR-243I while the second is CR-243K.

Also worth noting is the relay at the right end of the board is still a 2 amp, same as the first run version. (Corrected)

This picture just shows the different boxes that the two come in. The left is the first run 2001 box, the right is the 2002 version.

So Dave, your wiring is probably correct if you are using internal continuity as I showed for the 2001 version above. All mine are now wired this way.

In summary, despite this little botch up, I still believe the 153IR does a great job for what it is, and I have no issues with them. It was important for me to find out why the two 2002 versions were wired differently, since they operate in tandem on my layout and they have to be talking to each other the same way. The 2002 version of these things has a couple of advantages over the 2001. Namely it powers up in non-triggered mode, and the connector designations make a lot more sense, especially now. Another nice thing is the 2002 versions stay triggered when a train stops in front of the sensor. The 2001 versions do not.

Hope this clears the air somewhat on these guys,

Rod

I thought I got away from this for awhile, but then....Oh...No!
Now, I don't just think these were born in Frankenstein's Lab, I think that the monster himself was building them!
"...one pcb is rev CR-243I while the second is CR-243K" Let's hope that units 243A to H didn't make it out the castle door. But 243J could be lurking just around that door.

Since both you and Stan have had them open, did either of you trace the connections from the toggle switch to the track tabs for track power. I'm curious about the relationship to the AUX power input. I'd like to find out which side of that input supplies the same polarity as the outer rail. Of course, the wires could be flipped on either side of the connection on different units, here also.

Dave

@Rod Stewart posted:

...

Also worth noting is the relay at the right end of the board is now a 1 amp version (on both), whereas the earlier 2001 units were 2A.

Not sure what you mean here.  I read the relay markings as ME-1A-5B.  From the MASSUSE datasheet:

So those are 2A contacts (and that's at 120VAC)...so conservative if carrying 14V Accessory AC.

@Dtrainmaster posted:

...

Since both you and Stan have had them open, did either of you trace the connections from the toggle switch to the track tabs for track power. I'm curious about the relationship to the AUX power input. I'd like to find out which side of that input supplies the same polarity as the outer rail. ...

On all the pics, diagrams, drawings I've seen there is a DPDT selector switch which chooses between 2-wire Track Power or 2-wire Accessory Aux Power.   In the photo above you can see that the black wires are on the "upper" row (one DPDT pole) and the red wires are on the "lower" row (the other DPDT pole).

So when you ask how the track power "polarity" correlates to the Aux/Acc power "polarity" I guess it depends if the user presses the red heat-shrinked tab to the center-rail and the black heat-shrinked tab to the outer-rail.  Obviously these could be pushed on to the FasTrack tabs backwards to reverse polarity.

Stan I stand corrected on the relay current rating. (Fixed my original post) Good to know. Looks like you have Dave fixed up on the track polarity stuff. All good. We have really drifted a long way from the op's initial question, but all this 153IR knowledge is a good thing.

Rod

To be absolutely clear, I think Dave's idea of modifying the 153IR's existing internal relay is brilliant.   I believe it is a solution to the OP question.  As stated earlier, even Lionel recognizes the application where two 153IR's protect both approaches to a crossing.  But even Lionel says the solution is to add an EXTERNAL relay and they provide instructions that, in my opinion, leave the end-user holding the bag so to speak.  In other words, thanks for nothing.

As I see it, the issue with the older 153IR's is the modification to isolate the internal relay gets a bit sticky.   As I showed with the modern 153IR as you'd presumably buy today, you can isolate the internal relay by simply cutting a wire...NO SOLDERING REQUIRED!  Dave deleted his diagram showing how to wire two (or more) 153IRs to eliminate the external relay...and I respect his decision at face value.

Above photo is cropped from your (Rod's) photo of a 2002 153IR.  Isolating the "Com" pin of the internal relay requires more than clipping one wire as with the presently retailed 153IR.  Frankly, I think it's now devolved into a situation where it's just a pedagogical exercise.  It's do-able....but I don't recommend you try this at home!