1957 Seaboard #602 Switcher/Lionel

This one part Jeff does'nt have

Stew, sorry if I gave you wrong information. The 262-E13 is the only gear stud that I am aware of the Lionel offered for sale. I looked at them as they  look quite similar, but I can not truthfully say I compared side to side. If the ones you got from George are not the right size, then I guess there is not an available part # I know of. You may have to turn down a brass rod of the same diameter to fit in the truck frame. 

The pinion gear stud is part number 600-105. There were available from Hillside and from MPC until about 1975. After that, if you ordered a stud they sent you an entire motor housing side.

Thank you Dennis for this part number. Another part number I came up with is 622-28. Do you know if these are the same part under different numbers?

Hi Stew,

The 622-28 is a 1/8" dowel pin. It is driven into the side of the die cast truck for the pinion gear. According to Lionel comprehensive parts index, the alternate number for the 600-105 is 600-114

So is Hillside and MPC somewhere you can currently get these part numbers?

Unfortunately Clayton both are gone forever. Hillside closed more than 45 years ago, and MOC not too long thereafter. Lionel has never been the same since.

There's a gentleman on Lionel FB showing his Ebay 602 off. I imagine they all have his problem sooner or later. It's going to make me shy away from more post war diesels unless I can get this repair done without too much aggrivation.

Clayton, there's no reason to shy away from this series of switcher. All it takes is an understanding of the problem, the right tools and patience. The downside to repairs like this one is not having done it before and not knowing where to look. Some of the repair manuals like K-Line and Greenberg do not include a lot of the updates that Lionel issued. The three main problems with the 600 series power trucks is (A) the bearing plate and repairmen losing the thrust washers atop the armature shaft; and (B) the tendency of the top plate with field coming loose from the motor truck frame allowing everything to shift; and (C) the pinion gear studs working loose. If you look at page 1 of Lionel's repair manual for the 200 series Alco, you'll see that it addresses the issue of the bearing plate as well as the washer on top of the armature shaft to reduce the upward/downward thrust of the armature.

Hey Clayton you may want to look at the post war die cast framed alco like the 2023 or the 622 switcher. These are excellent running units made before they evolved to the stamped metal frame. 

i sent out several emails spewing out the part numbers that Dennis has provided. Somebody has these in a box. Thanks Dennis!!

That's good to know. When I get this 602 repair over I will acquire one like that. Thanks

I am one of the guys who likes to make things work as they should, much like many of the gentlemen on this topic, but after a while, I would tire of trying to unscrew the inscrutable. My personal course of action would be to buy a 623 or a 6250 Seaboard switcher, these have their little quirks also, but a good cleaning and replacement of wear parts will yield a loco that will run much better than the switchers with the 200 series motor. That being said I have several of these also, but was lucky enough to get ones that didn't need a lot of work. Does this loco have a 2 position or 3 position reverse unit? 

3 I believe. It will actually run in reverse but I don't want to compound the problem?

Hey Clayton, I made up some pinion/studs for the gears from a MPC 8010 frame. Take a look at the measurements in particular for the tabs going into the field plate. If this side frame fits your side frame I will send you this side frame. Note that this frame has one magnetic axle and one regular axle. I can also include the gears if you need them.

The MPC frame was a 8021-106 truck.

This is my stopping point tonight. This is my 1st diesel and so 1st time breaking one down. I'll figure out tearing down the rest of the way tomorrow. It's almost as much trouble cleaning the grease off ur hands as when ur working on a vehicle. Lol. I appreciate the help. The smaller idler gear used in forward motion is the one bad but others my be on the way.

I believe one of the gentlemen in this thread may have hinted they could do this repair. I am so busy with my work I would be glad to cover the cost if they had the time and patience. I have other engines I will have enough trouble just getting to the repairs I know something about. 

I can do repairs on your engine so it runs like new. Many years experience. If interested, contact in profile.

 Chuck

Thankx Mr Chuck. I have an 8 x 12 layout I am working on I've only been into O guage a little over a year. I need to upgrade my power supply. Is the ZW the logical choice or what do you suggest? And if is a ZW is it better to buy a new one or go for one of the older built ones?

A ZW is a good choice. If you are going to strictly run postwar equipment, a good rebuilt postwar is a far better buy than the newer ZW's. In my opinion the newer ones are overpriced, and are subject to main circuit board failures.

If you also plan to run modern equipment Both Lionel and MTH brands that has electronic bells and railsounds a modern ZW would probably be a better choice as you will need a fast acting electronic circuit breakers that the newer ones have (along with MTH's Z4000) to protect the electronics in the trains. The newer ZW's have more power than the older ones, but a postwar ZW should easily power your 8x12 layout.

Clayton, we rebuild these trucks on a regular basis and we have new old stock motor truck frames as well as side frame pieces on hand. We also remagnetize the magnetic axles. As far as the ZW is concerned, I would recommend the postwar ZW, and with that recommend finding one like new or rebuilt by a reputable transformer repairmen. The postwar ZW can be easily updated with state of the art fast acting electronic circuit breakers.

Dennis

Unfortunately, fast acting electronic circuit breakers, which are current limiting devices, will not protect the electronics in the trains from the cumulative damage of high voltage(sometimes of several hundred volts) spikes. If protecting the electronics is a genuine concern, Transient Voltage Suppression is the protection you seek.

Sorry to re-hash this old post guys but I own one of these 602's and wish to restore it to "mint" mechanical condition.  I bought this engine about a month ago and it was my first model railroad locomotive ever I bought!  I love this thing and want to restore it to "mint" mechanical condition for sentimental value.  I realize it's an older Pullman motor and they are known to be a bit loud, but mine is incredibly loud.  The e-unit seems to be way louder than the others I've seen/heard.  Any tips you guys have are much appreciated.

Also, is it possible to order and replace the entire truck units?  Motor?  E unit?  Or do you have to order each little gear/sprocket nut and bolt then reassemble?

Ps..  Rob/DennisWaldron is there anyway I can email you guys with questions?

Ps... Here's a video of my 602     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZUXmg2QEAw

You have to order seperate parts to rebuild them; they don't make the pulmor or eunit new anymore.(the e-unit is and electronic board now, very very quite or silent)

Used ones that run can be had on eBay and other sites. Or even here from a vendor or member. Do a wanted post, someone might have a replacement.

If you can sometimes order new(can motor) power trains from the manufacturers to adapt. The offerings regularities vary. Bachmann likely has the most regular and wide range of offerings .

Another option might be a Frank Timco conversion plate on an old power truck to use a can motor.

Sending out just a truck for servicing might be cheaper than expected with what you might save on shipping vs a whole engine....and safer since that is more likely to get damaged too.

ADCX Rob posted:

Clayton Holland posted:

I would be ticked off if...

It's a very common wear issue with these motors, the aluminum framed MagneTraction 600 series, but it's not a fatal failure. If you can see it through, it's also a very rewarding repair, as most of the motors out there now are terrible runners, especially in one direction. When fixed, they are very capable power units. Getting the several that I have running right was a long trial & error process to pin down the problem(s), but they are beautiful runners now.

Point taken, Rob. I too am rebuilding a motor truck (two, actually) in my 602. I got lucky on one of them and the pinion studs/axles are in good shape. I also recommend buying only NEW 2023-117 gears to replace - Jeff @Train Tender supplied NOS Madison gears that work like a charm. The other 4 mix n' match gears I got elsewhere are worthless - two of them are steel which was kind of neat because they were always magnetically attracted to the wheels which caused them to run/lay flat against the wheel - no twisting on a worn axle. But alas, the gear teeth just didn't mesh well, so Madison's were used. The bottom plastic bearing plate was slightly loose, but ran best in the centered position, so no side frame denting, I just used a tiny bit of super glue to hold in place.

Once assembled, the e-unit decided to give up right in the middle of testing, so that was another delay. Finally, all was together and seemed to run well, but within minutes I was getting very smooth, easy starts in reverse, but labored, higher voltage and noisier starts forward. I disassembled and found that the brush plate positioning was absolutely critical. Despite Lionel's well crafted machining of the mounting holes in the brush plate and the mounting studs protruding from the motor field, there was still some wiggle room, Turned out a judicious twist in one direction with a quick screwing down of the brush plate while holding my jaw slightly to the left, did the trick - smooth startups forward and reverse now. Hard to believe that the armature/brush positioning is that critical, but I guess it is!

What a great thread this was for me, because my other motor truck still needs a lot of work, and I have read some good tips to use on it. But it's all fun!

I remember a train shop in Oakmont Pa (gone now) that made pinion studs that all yo did was remove the worn pinion stud and insert the new stud  .... They had a small nut behind them! YOU could rebuild these 600 motors perfectly!!  maybe some machine shop could make them a nd sell them here on the forum  ... Daniel

GeoPeg posted:

ADCX Rob posted:

Clayton Holland posted:

I would be ticked off if...

It's a very common wear issue with these motors, the aluminum framed MagneTraction 600 series, but it's not a fatal failure. If you can see it through, it's also a very rewarding repair, as most of the motors out there now are terrible runners, especially in one direction. When fixed, they are very capable power units. Getting the several that I have running right was a long trial & error process to pin down the problem(s), but they are beautiful runners now.

Point taken, Rob. I too am rebuilding a motor truck (two, actually) in my 602. I got lucky on one of them and the pinion studs/axles are in good shape. I also recommend buying only NEW 2023-117 gears to replace - Jeff @Train Tender supplied NOS Madison gears that work like a charm. The other 4 mix n' match gears I got elsewhere are worthless - two of them are steel which was kind of neat because they were always magnetically attracted to the wheels which caused them to run/lay flat against the wheel - no twisting on a worn axle. But alas, the gear teeth just didn't mesh well, so Madison's were used. The bottom plastic bearing plate was slightly loose, but ran best in the centered position, so no side frame denting, I just used a tiny bit of super glue to hold in place.

Once assembled, the e-unit decided to give up right in the middle of testing, so that was another delay. Finally, all was together and seemed to run well, but within minutes I was getting very smooth, easy starts in reverse, but labored, higher voltage and noisier starts forward. I disassembled and found that the brush plate positioning was absolutely critical. Despite Lionel's well crafted machining of the mounting holes in the brush plate and the mounting studs protruding from the motor field, there was still some wiggle room, Turned out a judicious twist in one direction with a quick screwing down of the brush plate while holding my jaw slightly to the left, did the trick - smooth startups forward and reverse now. Hard to believe that the armature/brush positioning is that critical, but I guess it is!

What a great thread this was for me, because my other motor truck still needs a lot of work, and I have read some good tips to use on it. But it's all fun!

Thank you Geopeg. You saved me a lot of time with your tip:   "Despite Lionel's well crafted machining of the mounting holes in the brush plate and the mounting studs protruding from the motor field, there was still some wiggle room, Turned out a judicious twist in one direction with a quick screwing down of the brush plate while holding my jaw slightly to the left, did the trick."    I followed your instructions to the letter. I had to add 1 more step... I needed to make the final screw tightening standing on my left foot, just kidding. If you were standing next to me, I would have kissed you. Thank you again.

Chuck Sartor posted:

If you have the motor running in one direction, try running the motor in forward and with a pair of test leads hold the motor in your hand so while it is running move the plastic bearing plate on the bottom of the motor to the left and right. If it now runs, cut a thin plastic or thin brass stock spacer and put it between the bearing plate and motor frame to keep it in that position. A small bead of super glue or epoxy to hold in place.

   I've got the same engine with the same problem. Cut up a wire tie for a shim ,jam it in there and the engine works fine.

    Thanks Chuck !

Thanks CHOO-CHOO MIKE

So Clayton Holland, what was the final outcome on your 602 motor rebuild?

George

I have a Lionel 602 Switcher that I got about 2 years ago. Yesterday, It just stopped running forward. I replaced the brushes and cleaned/oiled/lubed the motor and gears. The engine runs forward for a short while, slows down and comes to halt. The engine runs fine in reverse. Upon further inspection, I noticed that when the engine runs forward, the pinion gears turn and rub against the geared wheel (the rear pinion gear is the worst- refer to the attached pictures). If the pinion axles are ok, what is required to remove and replace the pinion gears? Are they pressed on?   Thanks for any help.

To replace the gear you have to remove the side frame and pull the wheel about half way off. The stub shafts are probably also worn. I have not hear about anybody successfully replacing them. Just a new gear will probably get you back on the road.  Might be time to start looking for a good used truck. 

Actually you don't have to disturb the truck sides at all, however you will need some tools the average operator doesn't have, such as welders pick, plastic hammer, a press, a X clinch tool and a 1" X 1" X 2" block of aluminum. Here's what the pick looks like.

If you look the power truck over carefully you'll notices that it is comprised to two main components, field structure with truck sides and the motor truck frame and wheels. These two components are held together using tab and slot. If you peek under the plate where the field is mounted, where the tab comes up from the truck frame, you'll see a tiny hole left and right of the tab. With the truck on its side, put the point of the pick into that hole and tap the pick with the hammer, a little on each side to work the tab out of the slot.  Once the field and plate is removed, you now have the truck frame to service. You can now pull the wheels and then the idler gears - check the gears and the axle they ride on to see which is worn. If those axles are loose in the truck frame, you can now use a punch and hammer to peen them to tighten. When you 're ready to reassemble, push the plastic bearing plate up where it needs to be and clinch the sides to hold it. Generally it is a good idea to mount the gear wheels on the axles first and then install them - less fighting with the pinion gears. Now add your pinion gears and wheels and axles and you're truck is ready to go back together.

With the truck frame resting on your bench, carefully line up the tabs with the slots in the field plate and push down evenly to get the plate all the way down on the base of the tab. Now take that junk of aluminum (wood won't work) and center it under the truck frame to support the center of the truck frame - take the entire truck over to your press and using the "X" clinch, re-clinch the tabs. Add your armature, brush plate, washers and brushes and you should be good to go.

Thanks for the information. I’ll get some pinion gears and give it a go.

Thinking about DENNISWALDRON's approach above for re-staking the motor bottom plate to the frame sides, here is a cheap tool I had made by a machinist friend, out of a stock piece of rectangular bar he had laying around. I found that if I used just a square piece of metal as the support for the frame, the bottom plastic bearing piece actually hit the metal first. So I had him mill out an area on top of the bar that provides clearance for that plastic bottom bearing piece – works great, providing totally solid support in the arbor press.

On a slightly off-topic note, here is a second tool I had made (this one by Carl @ Hobby Horse) to be used as an anvil for staking the black side frames tight on my 600 style motor truck bottom plate. In my arbor press, I used an “X” style clinching tool in the top, but didn’t have any kind of anvil to place under the side frame on the bottom - at least nothing that would fit due to interference from the black side frame itself. The skinny 3/16” shaft gave the needed clearance from the side frame, while the 1.25” shaft length provided enough depth to reach the bottom surface of each side frame.

I also thought about putting a couple of new pinion axles in the side frame, because they ALL seem to show some amount of wear, and eventually bring the engine to a halt. But I believe ultimately that task would be futile since the entire frame of the motor structure is made of soft aluminum and would easily get bent during any sort of pinion axle replacement process. If you are courageous enough to totally disassemble the motor frame, I suspect upon reassembly you would have a parallelogram (or worse) where you once had a rectangle! I like STEW1957’s approach to replacing the pinion axles using a chunk of plastic from an MPC8010 frame – except that it’s plastic – I don’t think metal pinion gears would be kind to a plastic axle.

In my opinion the root cause of this whole worn pinion/axle scenario is the lack of anything to keep the pinion gear from sliding back & forth (in and out) on the pinion axle. I suspect that on even brand new 600 series motors (haven’t ever seen a new one) the pinion gear can slide out (away from the frame) enough such that the axle is no longer protruding through the entire inside length of the pinion gear – only part of it. This allows some gear tilt to occur at the outer edge and thus starts the wear. In fact, the only thing keeping the pinion gear from sliding off the axle entirely is that it hits the back of the drive wheel. So if one could fashion something that would prevent the pinion gear from sliding outward on the axle, the problem might be resolved.

One approach might be a spring clip. If a U-shaped spring (bronze, brass or steel?) clip were fashioned such that it fit over the top of the motor side frame (between the motor bottom plate and the side of the frame) and then one leg fit over the pinion axle with just a very slight tension, while the other leg was glued in place on the back side of the frame, would that be sufficient to keep the pinon gear laying flat and in line with the rest of the gear train? Obviously pressing a flat spring against the side of the pinion gear will create some friction, but if minimal spring tension were applied, wear would be minimized, perhaps even negligible if things were kept well lubed.

Alternatively, some sort of washer of proper proportions could be glued or soldered to the end of the axle to keep the pinion gear from protruding past the end of the axle, thus keeping the gears in line. This solution might even be accomplished with no frame disassembly!

What do you think? I may give this a shot when I’m feeling a bit better … sorry for the length, but after all, I AM retired!!

That sounds like a good idea. The trucks used on postwar GP7/GP9/F3/EP5 engines has basically the same design with floating pinion gears. Those trucks are solid diecast and do not suffer from the pinion gear shaft wear. I bet the stamped aluminum truck frame on the 600 series switchers and later Alcos flexes too much in operation, causing the pinion gear and shaft wear.

Is the pinion gear pressed on to the pinion axle or does the pinion gear just slide onto the pinion axle? If it only slides onto the axle, is the pinion gear kept from sliding off the axle only because it hits the back of the drive wheel?

The idler pinion axles are fixed, the gears rotate on them. The backs of the wheels are what keeps the pinion gears from falling off.

A question for Dennis Waldron on separating the top plate from the lower frame:

Are you instructing to tap a tapered tool straight into the holes by the tabs to pop (force) the parts apart?

The idler pinion axles on my 602 Switcher appear to be OK.  So assuming the idler pinion axles are not worn out, new pinion gears should fit tightly onto the axles with very little play or wobble. Is this a correct statement?