2 TIU channels into 1 TPC

Patrick,

Is this to little  or to much for the DCS signal to travel?

 I've read and heard anywhere from 6 sections of track up to 250 ft. 

The length is fine, however, I suggest that you make your center rail cuts in the middle track of each block rather than at one end. Thsi in effect shortens the length the DCS signal has to travel, on average.

Also  i will be using the outside rail to kick on a relay for signals, will this degrade the signal as well?

That should be fine.

3rd- Since all the outside rail is cut into sections will i have to run an auxiliary wire is some spots  along the track on opposite outside rail because of weakened TMCC signal?

In my mind I am thinking outside rail and middle rail DCS  other outside rail TMCC. I know this isn't scientific but is my approach to keep my layout organized as far as wiring.

That isn't scientific and, regardless, it doesn't really matter. TMCC and DCS can share the outside rails without any issues whatsoever.

Patrick H,

    Due to the size and the many tunnels on your layout you may need magic lights

on some places thru out your layout, and at the Copper blocks you are using instead of MTH terminal blocks.  If you need help installing the DCS give me a yell and I will lend a hand.  Further take Barry's advise seriously and set up your blocks with cuts in the middle track of each block, it helps your DCS signal remain stronger thru out your complete layout.  Also I strongly suggest putting 10 Amp Scott Breakers between your new ZW-L and your TIU, to ultimately safe guard your TIU. 

Further I have never been big on putting TIU's under the layout, I really do believe this is one of the reasons why my DCS layout ran so well.  The TIU was just a little higher than my 1st track level.  Patrick I also recommend you purchase the most up to date TIU that is made today for your large layout.

PCRR/Dave

Patrick on my RR I am basically doing the same thing except the blocks for me are 30 feet long and still retain the magic bulb despite using the Rev L ( Found it kept things consistent) and for signals I am using z stuff sensors and not the rail for signals, Iam using the new ZWL and have had zero signal problems for my DCS and Legacy. The issue for me, is I have weathered rolling stock and the signal bridge sensors can have difficulty seeing a dull coated weathered car because of the lack of reflection in the signal sensor, the flip side is the single signal sees motion going by from the base and works consistently, so using relays has an advantage over sensors in my opinion but can create a little more work.

Oh please None of this magic bulb stuff alrerady.  LOL  I am gonna start with simplest loop first. Let ya know how it goes.
Don,

How many sensors are you using per block?

Barry,

Ok thanks,

 see how it goes. Hope i can get away with just the one RevL.   A few weeks back we temp hooked up to one of the mainlines and got   good signal 3/4 of the way around without making the blocks , so i am optimistic. (as of today)

Hi Patrick

I would just hook it up as you have planned and see what happens, don't think it will hurt anything. I had an 100' dual track perimeter oval with two drops and blocks, everything works great, once I tightened my loose screws on the terminal block. This winter I added more than a case of gargraves track to the loops. Turned it on and everything still works great without doing any wiring.

Clem

Using one on each end of each mainline block and signals are daisy chained thru the sensors, sorry the bulb is a sore spot, me bad.

Well i want to take it one step at a time. You know the rule :if something quits working what was the last thing you changed. 

 I have to cut all the outside rails  every 50ft anyway for the relays but may do one at a time on the center just to keep taking some tests.

Glad it all worked out for ya. Guessing you have the new Rev L?

You know i was razn ya on the bulb,not sore at all. (See ya at york again I hope)I may look into the sensors for some areas, relays arent that cheap either. Only problem is i bought some really nice signals 4 or 5 years ago that are double mast with  double signals etc.. , may need some relays no matter what.

By all means, cut the center rail in the middle of each block, not the end.  As I recall, I I don't think I even cut my outside rails.

.....

Dennis

Patrick,

   You do not have to use the magic lights until you absolutely need them, then you can install them if your signal is weak, this however is not planning your layout to have all 10's.  I planned with the magic lights, Don is absolutely correct it keeps the

signal constant & uniform thru out the layout using them.

PCRR/Dave

You do know about the filters that you can make simply with a resistor and cap that eliminates the magic bulbs and also consumes no power, right?

Patrick,

In my earlier post I mistakenly stated:

The length is fine, however, I suggest that you make your center rail cuts in the middle track of each block rather than at one end. This in effect shortens the length the DCS signal has to travel, on average.

What I should have stated was:

The length is fine, however, I suggest that you make your Hot and Common connections in the middle track of each block rather than at one end. This in effect shortens the length the DCS signal has to travel, on average.

Sorry about that!

John,

You do know about the filters that you can make simply with a resistor and cap that eliminates the magic bulbs and also consumes no power, right?

You should be aware that that these filters work best on buss-wired layouts and require that a pair of filters per channel be placed, one at the TIU outputs and the other at the "farthest point" from the TIU. Finding the "farthest point" can be problematical on a layout wired using star/home run wiring.

Further, light bulbs are a good way to verify that power is flowing from the TIU channel.

That's exactly how I use them, as we're talking about a transmission line. Our club layout is already wired as a bus, so I'm trying to get decent operation with DCS.

It's a good idea to clarify the use, thanks for chiming in, I should have mentioned that.

Barry,
This is the way I took it the first time. (and second)  Correct? No need to cut all three rails right.

So basically cut halfway between each of the 8 drops .

The outside rail that is cut is for relays for  signal blocks

Dont know if that was aimed at me but yes,

 you can send me a few of them  with my delivery. Im sending you another Powermaster here soon for upgrade.

:atrick,

Your diagram is fine.

 Louis, it is discouraging when it won't work. Troubleshooting becomes an art. I wish it was easier. The best advice I ever got was to start from scratch to test the system. Just a length of track, an engine, and a beer!!!

 My whole layout(s) has acted up about three or four times in my life usually when a major change was made. I worked through it and it is so pleasing to run now. I'm glad I stuck with it. You will too.

 I can pull any set of engines out of their house, send them to the car tracks, pickup and deliver them. Love the system and it's the best I've owned after four complete systems. Never out grew it. Use it for two scales and maybe adding a third.

gunrunnerjohn,

   I have always liked the lights better, simple to use and they assure me

the TIU is functioning absolutely correctly.  I actually like the magic lights better and using them along the tracks is way cool, for my toy train look.

Louis,

   Can I ask what track you are using?  Are you adding DCS to a layout you have already, or did you start from scratch?  Joe is absolutely correct the best DCS layouts are engineered from scratch and tested as building proceeds.  However I have helped add DCS to many different existing layouts, it can be done.  The harderst thing is getting the owner to realize that the DCS has to become the major controlling entity of the existing layout, and everything must run thru it.

Some runners will not accept this fact, and want to simply use DCS as an add on,

it never works in that manner.

PCRR/Dave

Louis,

   Start a new thread and I will help you.

PCRR/Dave

I do not understand Why Patrick wants to add DCS to his Layout he does not have any DCS engines.

DOC,

  Maybe he wants to purchase some, and he does have other guys who visit who have P2 engines. 

PCRR/Dave

my layout is much smaller then Patrick's, but my two take aways are:

1 lionel engines  degrad signal strength significantly along with light voltage regulated cabooses

2  I am running the old rev dcs unit unit with out the USB port, but i followed all the rules and let the Ross switches be my natural end of power blocks, star pattern, etc... and was not successful in achieving high signal strenght numbers ( with only a dcs engine on the layout, no lionel engines present). I tried the light bulb with limited success.  The real thing that made a difference was using the engineered filters Susan Deets spoke of, which i learn armed about on the forum.  Once installed, 8, 9, 10's signal strength instantly.  i purchased the components from Newark and was cheap.  I now run both tmcc and dcs together with the only issue being with the microphone feature on dcs not letting go consistently.  I assume this is partly because of the degraded signal from the lionel engine

Mike

 The trick with the light bulb would be getting the correct one(s) for the layout. I believe you found that the filter was tuned right in.

Mike,

I now run both tmcc and dcs together with the only issue being with the microphone feature on dcs not letting go consistently.  I assume this is partly because of the degraded signal from the lionel engine

Actually, it's a bug in DCS that's been around forever.

i also did the same set up with isolated outside rail for future signal system.  In complicated switching areas this has caused me problems with mth steam engines.  

My experience with the mth steam engines is  that they are horrible about picking up the outside rail power as they only use the drivers of the engine as compared to lionel where they also use the trailing truck on the engine.  Where this becomes a problem is with wiring none derailing for switches in close proximity needing to utilize both outside rails combined with a drive wheel utilizing a traction tire and another rail being used as an isolated block.  I think mth has tried to help correct this now with the extra piano wire along the wireless drawbar to grab contact to the outside rail through the tender, but this is a poor fix and unreliable.  I wish they would use the trailing truck in addition as lionel does.

Mike

Thanks for the reply Barry.

You can add chokes to the affected engines and lighted rolling stock to address the degradation of signal strength with those items.

We will get it Louis ,

 We talked earlier and discusses   as Joe did is to start small and test the system on a small basis first.Good advice

 However I know you didnt hop on one foot cause you got a recovering wheel already.That may of got it to work.

Pine Creek,

I ve seen you referance many times in this thread (and others)that you have alot of experience in getting DCS to work on other peoples layouts.

Do you have any referances of layouts you have successfully installed DCS for them ?

This way we can use them as a model for our trial and error.

Reason I m a bit skeptical although nothing negative,in other threads you ve discussed  how my layout was wired,built  etc and comments about how my layout works and who brings what etc....  when only being there one time as a guest for a couple hours and never seeing or discussing the wiring.

Me and Louis have been working together(as far as planning) on both our layouts together and are serious about making , having , and keeping  them right and your wealth of others layout you have done  could greatly help. 

Because everytime my friend DOC comes over to run trains he has to run them in conventional.Now hes buying more TMCC .LOL

Mike,

I will seriously take your advice about your comments from your experience.

One thing I d like to ask you  , if you had to do it again  would you hold the cut rail(block) further back away from the switch? Would that of helped you do you think?

I will let you guys know how it goes. I beleive my components i ordered will begin to come in today and tomorrow.Plan to get  started Thursday night through the weekend.

Thanks,

 Don, Joe , Gunner, Barry for the  help so far

Mike,

Are these 3/2 engines? To do so are the wheels actually insulated from the truck frame? Have seen many layouts where they mistake the no ground for a pick up issue.

Patrick,

   The layouts we worked on were usually thru the Iron Horse Train club and were usually for Chrsitmas, and get taken down and put up at different times, except for Franks nice size office layout, which is pictured thru out the OGR in different places.   If we do any more, I will start to take pictures, never though I would need to do it, for any reason however.  As far as I know I have never commented on the wiring of your layout, don't know how you did it, except that you run TMCC/Legacy and have a new ZW-L transformer. I enjoyed my visits to your layout but frankly, I do not care if you are skeptical of anything I have ever done, have fun with your layout, I will have fun with mine.

PCRR/Dave

Patrick, I have a much smaller layout than yours but I was determined to do blocks and track side signals with DCS.  Originally I wired the layout without blocks and DCS signal strength was all good, all 10's on all three power districts.  Then I cut the center rails and wired the blocks, the signal strength was still good but no longer all 10's...  The layout still performed fine, I was collecting the MTH operating signals for all around the layout.  I cut one of the other rails and wired in 12 seperate relays for the different signals areas around the layout.  That outer rail cut did compromise the signal to 5 and 6 in some areas.  I'm not sure why.  I was frustrated but the little magic trick  (under the layout into railpower in each district) did the job and went back to 10 signal strength.  Anyway, figured I'd share that since you're going in a similar direction.  

I know title of post reads "DCS and Signal blocks", so just to clarify what I was trying to describe are:

1.  Blocks on my layout are switched sections of track that can be shut off with toggle switch.

2.  Signaled areas on my layout are not the same track areas as above toggled blocks, I cut the other rails where I wanted the track side signals.

I do have an older style TIU but it works great now with DCS, blocks and signals.

Thanks lite24 for your experienced tip!

First thing we did was mount the TIU under the layout right next to the  ZWL. Walked to the other side of the room (farthest)-sat down and blew the whistle on the engine . So thats where it is going,

We got the first lower track signal really good with only 4 cuts to the middle rail. So another words 2 drops to each section,

 My freind who has only  a few  years of DCS experience says thats pretty darn good.To leave well enough alone. It maybe beginners luck.  Tunnels didnt seem to have any effect at all, thought DCS came from the  track not walls like TMCC.Also my bridges are lighted from direct LEDs w/ resistors wired to the track(so i know when power is on). Dont know if that is the light bulb deal or not that may have helped.

 so at this point if we are getting strong 7 + should i keep cutting? I do get a 5 and 6 ocassionally between an  8 and 9 but only in a few spots.

Thanks

I think Louis even had better results then me. I never seen a 10 at all .

You're tying the output of two TIU channels together at the input to the TPC???

Yes, DCS signal is the rails.  I'm not certain if the LED light on the bridges, bumpers etc helps, somebody here will know.  If I were you I would keep cutting, I think the 12 Toggle blocks i installed (even though not necessary with DCS) gave me more versatellitAron the layout, the signal strength can be made better.  An easy way to see if your layout likes light bulbs is to pull a lighted passenger car with your signal testing engine or just set it on a nearby track in the same district.  Then remove the lighted passenger car and compare signal strength.

On my layout, I cut in blocks all over so was unsure where (and how many bulbs I needed)...  The lighted passenger car placed around th layout seemed to be a good detector, although when we did the wiring ( Dewey helped me) we didn't install bulbs in the block sections of track but only in the rail-power sections (1 pigtailed bulb for each district/loop) seemed to make the signal perfect.

FYI,

 

Question's  - Which TIU should be in "Super mode"

  

                - Does TIU 1 need turned on before TIU 2?

 

All TIUs should be in Super mode. The order in which they are powered on makes no difference.

And then from the TPC, to the bus bar, from the bus bar out to the feeds.

Tying multiple TIU outputs together is a mistake. If you must use a TPC (and I have no idea why you need to do so), wire in Passive TIU Mode.

I'm not certain if the LED light on the bridges, bumpers etc helps,

They do not. They aren't the same as light bulbs.

This and a whole lot more is all in "The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition", now available for purchase as an eBook or a printed book from MTH's web store site! Click on the link below to go to MTH's web page for the book!

Yeah I found that to be a bit disturbing too.  Seems like a a lot of room for TIU damage and possible signal issues.  I'm guessing the TPC is the only way to safely tie 2 180 bricks together.

Tying multiple TIU outputs together is a mistake. If you must use a TPC (and I have no idea why you need to do so), wire in Passive TIU Mode.

As Barry suggested "Passive Mode".  But then you loose the ability to run your conventional engines via the DCS controller and the E Stop feature of DCS.

Passive mode in short, is powering the TIU externally, and just running the outputs to the track.  The power does not go through the TIU from the transformers.  The transformers power the track directly or in your case via the TPCs.

In a way similar to Legacy.  The TIU acts strictly as a command signal transmitter/receiver but has nothing to do with track power.

Since my DCS expertise is low, I will bow to the advice of those who have a lot more experience with issues like these.  My loops are relatively small and didn't require a lot of work.

Louis,

I want 2 bricks to each loop.

Why?

Louis,

For when I want to do something like run 2 trains of passenger cars on 1 loop.

First, a 180 watt, 10 amp brick should handle that load without a problem.

Second, it's smarter and less complicated to set up power districts.