2014 Lionel Vision Line Big Boy no Whistle, Chuff, or Tender Function

It seems odd that the tender wouldn't work at all because the symptoms you describe are exactly what I see in my 2-10-10-2 when the IR between the engine and tender are misaligned. They tend to get misaligned when I'm backing up.

I would go back to the IR on the engine and see if there's a broken wire/bad joint/ something. But I mostly say that because I don't know how to diagnose a bad board. The tender worked with a different locomotive and a different tender didn't work with the Big Boy. I think the Big Boy IR is the common link. Maybe it's angled downward too much.

If the tender works behind another Legacy locomotive, it's not the tender.

The serial data in the VL-BB takes a fairly torturous path to get to the IR sensor, and if that path is interrupted before the RSL2 board, the IR sender will indeed be illuminated, but there will be no serial data.  Follow the red lines and check all the wiring/connections shown.  Serial data goes from the RCMC to the SFC3 (VL Fan Controller), and then to the RSL2 (RailSounds Lite) board, and finally to the IR sender in the drawbar.

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Hello,

Thank you for the replies and schematic. That's one piece of the puzzle we did not have that my son asked about.  I will have him double check that path. 

I know the tender is fine and it's not an alignment issue...we verified that early on in the process. The other thing too is the sound in the Locomotive starts immediately when power is applied too...not silent like normal when powering up in a command environment.

Which board generates the serial data?  Also is it possible to reflash the firmware on these or is that something only lionel can do?

Thanks l,

Lee

I had one of those engines on the bench just recently with pretty much the same issue, ….tender would wake up in conventional. No control of tender operations. The IR tether socket on the tender side had a cold solder joint. The harnesses were zip tied too tight, and the socket the IR harness plugged into became the fulcrum point,….worth checking it out,….

Pat

I am having a Bigboy issue myself for a different problem. Been in contact with Lionel with no resolve yet. Does your version use a SFC3 board?

@harmonyards posted:

I had one of those engines on the bench just recently with pretty much the same issue, ….tender would wake up in conventional. No control of tender operations. The IR tether socket on the tender side had a cold solder joint. The harnesses were zip tied too tight, and the socket the IR harness plugged into became the fulcrum point,….worth checking it out,….

Pat

Tender works fine though behind a different Locomotive.

I will double check it on the engine side...but wouldn't there be no ir glow if that was bad?

@PRREnola posted:

Hello,

Thank you for the replies and schematic. That's one piece of the puzzle we did not have that my son asked about.  I will have him double check that path.

I know the tender is fine and it's not an alignment issue...we verified that early on in the process. The other thing too is the sound in the Locomotive starts immediately when power is applied too...not silent like normal when powering up in a command environment.

Which board generates the serial data?  Also is it possible to reflash the firmware on these or is that something only lionel can do?

Thanks l,

Lee

You can't FLASH anything on these, Lionel is the only game in town.

Since the sound in the locomotive starts up right away, that tells me why the tender isn't getting serial data.

A question, do all the smoke features work properly?  The SFC3 board controls the whistle steam and the blowdown smoke.  You just need to follow the trail.  You can swap a different Legacy RS-Lite board into the locomotive for test.  It'll sound funny, but that will tell you if it's the one with the problem.

The SFC3 brings the serial data in from the RCMC and forwards it to the sound board

The sound board receives the serial data from the SFC3 and forwards it to the drawbar IR sender.  Any one of these links in the chain can interrupt the serial data.

My approach would be to start by testing the RCMC and making sure it's outputting serial data.  Then I'd test the RS-Lite board and make sure it's receiving serial data.  If both of those were good, and the wiring is solid, the likely suspect is the SFC3 board.  I test that way because I have a tester that easily tests the RCMC and RS-Lite, I didn't expand it to do the SFC3 boards as those aren't encountered nearly as often.

@PRREnola posted:

Tender works fine though behind a different Locomotive.

I will double check it on the engine side...but wouldn't there be no ir glow if that was bad?

Not necessarily, as John mentioned, if it’s only the serial stream that’s interrupted, the IR can still glow, just no data being transmitted,….I missed the part where y’all tried the tender on another engine….

Pat

Not all Bigboy engines use the SFC3 boards. The model I'm working on only has whistle and main stack smoke and steam. The smoke units are driven from the RCMC board directly. My issue is both smoke units operate simultaneously. The whistle chuffs with the main stack!

How would I go about testing to see of the rcmc is generating the data? This does have the sfc3 board too...its kind of buried behind the front smoke units.  Do you have any tips on removing it?

@PRREnola posted:

How would I go about testing to see of the rcmc is generating the data? This does have the sfc3 board too...it’s kind of buried behind the front smoke units.  Do you have any tips on removing it?

As John mentioned the SFC3 is the first in line to receive Serial data. So if both the whistle steam function and blow down work from the Cab-2(1,1L) then we know the RCMC is generating serial data and that the SFC3 is receiving it and operating correctly. If that works the from there follow the serial data from the SFC3 to the RS Lite board

@Chuck Sartor posted:

Not all Bigboy engines use the SFC3 boards. The model I'm working on only has whistle and main stack smoke and steam. The smoke units are driven from the RCMC board directly. My issue is both smoke units operate simultaneously. The whistle chuffs with the main stack!

We're talking about the 2014 VL-BB, it has the SFC3 board.

BTW, the whistle doesn't chuff with the stack Chuck, the problem is the air leakage in the poorly designed dual-smoke unit.  The baffle depends on minimizing air leakage under the baffle, when you replace the felt wick with what's currently available, you get enough air pressure to have the whistle "chuff".  This is a well known issue that Lionel doesn't have any solution to.  What we need is the ability to procure the same felt pad that is used in new production to minimize the air leakage between the two halves of the smoke unit.

@zhubl posted:

As John mentioned the SFC3 is the first in line to receive Serial data. So if both the whistle steam function and blow down work from the Cab-2(1,1L) then we know the RCMC is generating serial data and that the SFC3 is receiving it and operating correctly. If that works the from there follow the serial data from the SFC3 to the RS Lite board

So even though the whistle doesn't blow I should still get the smoke?  I don't think we did...but will retest

@PRREnola posted:

So even though the whistle doesn't blow I should still get the smoke? I don't think we did...but will retest

Yes, that's how it's expected to work.

The SFC3 board runs the two aux smoke units, if it's getting the serial command, you should get whistle smoke and blowdown smoke.  If you're not getting those smoke functions, it's narrowed down to the SFC3 board, the RCMC, or the serial wire between them.  The RCMC smoke outputs are controlling the two sides of the dual smoke unit for the stack smoke.

Not to steal the original posters questions in his thread., There is no SFC3 board in the version I have. Only main and aux. smoke. It is not from air leakage. the 2 smoke unit motors are operating simultaneously, causing the whistle to chuff! This is the bluetooth version. Right now I am working with Lionel to figure out what is going on. I think the model is from 2020, is a 'dumbed down' version of the 2014 version.

Not sure if could cause downstream communication problems w the tender, but the SFC3 board in my VL big boy had a loose solder joint on the bulk capacitor.  See this thread:

https://ogrforum.com/...e-and-blowdown-smoke

Before the fix, I was getting a buzzing noise from the speakers.

@Chuck Sartor posted:

Not to steal the original posters questions in his thread., There is no SFC3 board in the version I have. Only main and aux. smoke. It is not from air leakage. the 2 smoke unit motors are operating simultaneously, causing the whistle to chuff! This is the bluetooth version. Right now I am working with Lionel to figure out what is going on. I think the model is from 2020, is a 'dumbed down' version of the 2014 version.

That's different chuck, that one doesn't have the independent front/rear stack smoke operation, so they just needed the two outputs from the RCMC.  Totally different wiring scheme in that one.  The fact that whistle motor goes with the chuff suggests that they have the RCMC for the 2014 big boy that indeed did that.  If you run at really low speed, do the chuffs from the main stack and whistle alternate?

Obviously, that's also not proper operation.

@PRREnola posted:

Hello, I have a 2014 vision line Big Boy that is having issues communicating to the tender.  It had been working when suddenly the chuff stopped, the whistle does not work, and the backup light and coupler do not function either.  It seems as if the engine is not providing any data to the tender.  The background steam sounds and blowoff sound also start immediately upon applying power.

The engine will take some commands, and will run forward and back, and the stack smoke works. The lighting also turns on and off with aux2.

Lee

Lee, Sorry to hear about your issues.

Here is some clarification for others that may see this thread.  Some of this is repeating what others have mentioned.

The early (2014) Vision Line Big Boys have three separate smoke units.
1) The main stack unit is a dual smoke unit where one side is tied to one stack and the other side is tied to the other stack.  The fan motors alternate with the "chuff-chuff".  This is not prototypical and Lionel did not do this on future releases. When the shroud cover is placed over the stacks, a small magnet disables this alternating feature and the two main smoke fan motors work in unison.
2) The whistle steam smoke unit is a smaller sized single smoke unit.  This is located very near the main smoke unit.
3) The blow-down smoke unit is located near the rear of the engine.  The fill for this unit is under the dome cover.

One of the issues with this engine, is smoke fluid from the blow-down smoke unit can leak onto the main control board and cause it to fail.  The blow-down smoke unit is located right above the main RCMC board.  Do not overfill the blow-down "smoke" unit!

When this engine is placed on the track without the tender, you will be able to hear the whistle sounds, the chuff, front coupler sound, bell, change in direction, etc. from the speaker located in the engine.  (You would also hear some of these same sounds in the tender if attached.)  This gives the engine and tender a much better sound overall.  With just the engine, you will not hear the cab chatter or tower sounds.  I did check and you will hear the water filling from the engine speaker.  I did not check the coal loading sound.

There should be no "steam" coming from the whistle unless the whistle is pressed on the hand-held controller.

Here are things to check as others have mentioned -

1. Do you get sounds when just the engine is on the track operating by itself?
2. If so, do you hear the chuff as the engine moves?
3. The main smoke unit fans will alternate from one stack to the other in sync with the chuff sound.  Much like a "chuff-chuff, chuff-chuff", etc.  They will sync at times to simulate the multiple steam chests.  (John mentioned this in his post also.)
4. Do the cab lights go out when the engine starts to move?
5. Do the ground/work lights go out at speed step 23?

I am guessing this engine was working correctly and then something happened and that the original boards are/were installed.  As you read through this, remember the RCMC boards are not the same for different versions of this "same" engine.

Hope this helps in some way.

I have found the issue with my problem. I had ordered the wrong RCMC board. Either I missed it totally or Lionel just added it. This parts site leaves something to be desired. I ordered the 2014 board instead if the 2020 version of the board. Hopefully that will take care of my issue.

That's what it sounded like Chuck, fits the symptoms perfectly.

Doh!  Expensive mistake but glad you figured it out.  Will Lionel let you return the wrong one for at least partial credit?

Hello Gunrunner, To continue with my issue with the 2104 Vision Line Big Boy....I did  make the observation of the smoke unit fans, visible with the Shell off....that "both Fans" for the main stacks power up and spin immediately as soon as power is applied, while the Fan for the Whistle Smoke Fan does not power up, or turn on at "any time, including when blowing the Whistle in Command mode, or blowing the whistle with the whistle control on the ZW Transformer...it never energizes the fan, in either Mode..?  Also, No blow down smoke at all.  If this continues to point to the Board previously mentioned....Do "you" Test these Boards (for whatever Fee you charge, of course), if my Son is able to remove them..? And following up, do you "sell" replacements, or is that strictly a Lionel Item...and would you know if they  "are still available"..?  Also, are there any "secrets" to removing this Board, that seems to be "underneath" everything else..? (lol)  I need to get this issue resolved.. can't afford to have a $2700.00 door stop and am anxious to get this great Locomotive back "in service"...   Thank you for all your expert help, and to everyone else who has taken their time to add their expert opinions and suggestions....PRREnola..   

Top suspect would be the SFC board, you can buy a new one cheaper than shipping this all around to be tested

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...L-PCB-VISION-BIG-BOY

I'd first make SURE that the serial data line from the RCMC to the SFC is good, but after that, I'd stick a new SFC in.

Thank you Sir.....Is there a "secret" to removal of that Board...It looks to be pretty much "buried" under everything else...? With your experience and expertise I'm sure there are some tips you have found for the least invasive way to remove that Board...? Thank you again for your help.....It is much appreciated...PRREnola

One other question I have....If you purchase a Board like this and you find it "wasn't" the Board....Are they "returnable" for refund or do you basically "Own" it because it's an electronic Item..?  Thanks again...PRREnola

Well shucks.  You may have another problem.  The RCMC for the 2014 Vision Big Boy is listed as not available.  This is for the engine with Cat# 6-11437

Not sure why as I thought these were "programed" as needed.  Does any one have any insight to this?

I would call Lionel tech support and see what they say about the boards and their return policy.  I seem to remember some limitation on what can be returned and the timing there of.

There may be a work around to the board availability.  The other Big Boy engines made at this same time with different road names have their RCMC listed as available.  (The p/n cs-691RCMC550-p RCMC / RECEIVER / DRIVER / BIG BOY 6-11438 #4017 */ C/D REV for example.)

I'm not sure the difference between the RCMC boards between the engines.  When I tested my engine by itself (without the tender), the tower com and chatter do not come on engine speaker.  So I would guess there is no difference between the different RCMC boards in the various road names, but you will need to verify if you decide to order a replacement board.

My guess, based on repairs I had to make on this same engine, the RCMC board has failed in some way, but as John mentioned, check the connections (wires) to the SFC board and its function.

And you are correct.  It is somewhat of a pain to remove the RCMC board or the SFC board from this engine.  You'll will have to remove several wire ties, wires, smoke units, selector switches, etc.  I always take photos before, during and after for comparison.

Well, I believe @Chuck Sartor may have the 2014 VLBB RCMC, read the thread.

I doubt you can return the board, though I've never tried.

What my problem was I was trying to use a 2014 board in a 2020 version. They look identical on their parts website. And their website was as clear as mud as the pictorial wiring diagram shows the incorrect board for the vision line version vs. the legacy version.

You can substitute the 4014 version for the 4017 or 4018 locomotive numbers, just the call out dialog for the engine will be different, if that doesn't bother you. As for them programming another board to the correct locomotive number, I already asked and they replied that was something they couldn't do.

@Chuck Sartor posted:

What my problem was I was trying to use a 2014 board in a 2020 version. They look identical on their parts website. And their website was as clear as mud as the pictorial wiring diagram shows the incorrect board for the vision line version vs. the legacy version.

You can substitute the 4014 version for the 4017 or 4018 locomotive numbers, just the call out dialog for the engine will be different, if that doesn't bother you. As for them programming another board to the correct locomotive number, I already asked and they replied that was something they couldn't do.

Chuck,

Are you saying that the RCMC contains specific call out engine ID number dialog?

So I did an interesting test this morning between a 2014 version and a 2020 excursion version of the 4014 Big Boy, each without its associated tender.  Yes, I own both.

• The engine ID specific dialog does sound in the 2020 version.  This includes testing both the CrewTalk and the TowerCom.
• There was no sound at all (dialog) from the 2014 version when the TowerCom or the CrewTalk buttons were pressed.
• The sound quality is much improved in the 2020 version compared to the 2014 version.  I was really surprised about the difference.

So you are correct in that the 2020 version does, but the 2014 version does not.

Hope this helps.

I can't totally confirm, but since Lionel listed a separate board for each number of the bigboy engine in the 2014 issue, I thought each number had a locomotive specific call out number in the crew dialog. Strange you get no crew talk from your 2014 version when the tower com and crew talk buttons are pressed.

I was surprised as well Chuck.  I'll have to think about spare boards as things continue...

@DaveGG posted:

Chuck,

Are you saying that the RCMC contains specific call out engine ID number dialog?

So I did an interesting test this morning between a 2014 version and a 2020 excursion version of the 4014 Big Boy, each without its associated tender.  Yes, I own both.

• The engine ID specific dialog does sound in the 2020 version.  This includes testing both the CrewTalk and the TowerCom.
• There was no sound at all (dialog) from the 2014 version when the TowerCom or the CrewTalk buttons were pressed.
• The sound quality is much improved in the 2020 version compared to the 2014 version.  I was really surprised about the difference.

So you are correct in that the 2020 version does, but the 2014 version does not.

Hope this helps.

Same as you I own both. Buy to be clear the RCMC holds no sound file that is all dependent on RS Lite board.

The main difference between the 2014 RCMC and 2020 RCMC besides probably some component changes will be the operation of the smoke unit. As Chuck found out the RCMC for the 2014 version handles both elements and fans for the main stack where as in the 2020 version the main stack is one side of the DSMK and the other is the whistle.

What you stumbled upon with the crew talk is normal and I also noticed the change.

In 2014 the tender held the crew dialog. Then in 2019 with the challenger the dialog moved to the locomotive and this was the same with the 2020 big boy. I don’t know why they made that change.

Zachariah,

Do you know of any difference in the RCMC board between the road names of the 2014 version of the vision big boy?

Thanks about the reminder regarding the sounds.  The RCMC triggers the sounds on the RS Lite board via the serial communications.

@zhubl posted:

In 2014 the tender held the crew dialog. Then in 2019 with the challenger the dialog moved to the locomotive and this was the same with the 2020 big boy. I don’t know why they made that change.

Well, I guess they figured the crew would probably be in the locomotive!

Zhubl is totally correct. The 2020 version is a 'dumbed down' version of the 2014, accessory wise. No blowndown or dynamo exhaust. I wish I had all this information that has come to light before I started this repair from 'deep down under'.

Sigh...... I remember the old days when Lionel used to have something called SERVICE BULLTINS! 

@DaveGG posted:

Zachariah,

Do you know of any difference in the RCMC board between the road names of the 2014 version of the vision big boy?

as far as the RCMC in all 2014 Vision big boys the are all the same regardless of road number.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, I guess they figured the crew would probably be in the locomotive!

You know that’s what I thought too but if you look at the distance from the cab to the front speaker it’s further compared to from the cab to the tender speaker.

then again who says the Lionel crew talk is even correct anyway, it’s just fun sometimes and can make someone smile when they hear the train talk

@zhubl posted:

as far as the RCMC in all 2014 Vision big boys the are all the same regardless of road number.

BUZZ, WRONG!   Each one has a unique part number and are programmed with their road specific number for the IR track transmitter.  I just picked two, but I assure you every different stock number has a unique part number for the RCMC.

John has it right I was thinking about feature functionality, I completely forgot the RCMC holds that information .  That being said if they have a #4004 RCMC it'd be pretty hard to convince me that they couldn't program a #4014 RCMC.

One other thing on the parts front, John you might have a idea and I don't want to derail this thread so don't well on this but I've looked for parts for locomotive from 2020 and of course there's nothing listed so I call or email Lionel and on occasion they come up with a part and others they send me a list of dealers to call to see if they have a cosmetic part from a locomotive they haven't made a parts break down for. IF they don't have the part why on earth would any one of those service station randomly have whistle detail or sand dome cover for a GS-1