259e, happy and disappointed, looking for help

The e-unit is cycling because there is an interruption in power somewhere in the circuit.  If the e-unit lever is loose, it will not make good contact with the ground eyelet.  If the rollers are dirty or one of the rollers does not have sufficient spring pressure then this could cause an interruption in power over a turnout or uncoupling track.  As for traction, if one or both rollers are oversized or spring pressure is too great, then they will tend to lift the drivers off the track reducing traction.  I believe the 259e's have a lead weight in the cab floor to aid traction, but I could be wrong.

Also check that the front truck ground spring is there. A lot of times it is missing. I'm with Jon on the pick-up spring tension. Especially if a new reproduction has been installed.

On some of my oldies I add lead weights where I can. It helps. I doubt if tires would work and you need the wheels grounded on the track. I would look real close at the E unit to make sure nothing was loose and, as recommended, make sure there isn't a loose connection from the roller pick ups to the e unit and motor. Also look for a minor short somewhere.

Also make sure there is a bit of vertical slop with both the front and rear trucks. If there is none, they could be keeping the weight off the drivers.

Steve

Adding weight will improve traction and electrical pickup. As already mentioned, too much spring on the pickup rollers, pilot truck and trailing truck may take too much weight off the drivers and reduce traction.

Wheels, tracks and rollers should all be clean to help prevent E-unit dropouts. Check for dead or dirty spots in your rails. Some switches and crossings may trigger E-units depending on the roller spacing. Pilot and trailing wheels should be assisting electrical pickup; check for conductivity to the frame. Check that the E-unit cutout switch is not loose and making good contact.

Some locos may have crooked frames causing the four drive wheels to teeter primarily on two wheels, which reduces traction and electrical pickup.

When E-units are problematic I lock them out or install manual reversing switches, which are more convenient in some ways. I put a manual reversing switch on my 259 with the switch handle poking up through the same slot for the original E-unit lever.

My 259 hauls short commuter trains, appropriate service for a 2-4-2. It has a custom tender cut down from a postwar 6026 tender.

Thanks for all the feedback guys.

The pickup rollers have both been replaced and look great, but don't roll very freely.  Perhaps some oil is needed, but I am not sure what kind.  Obviously I want to encourage conductivity, not inhibit it.  Suggestions?

Also, I took a look at the rollers this morning and noticed that the front definitely sticks down further than the rear.  I am not sure if the front one is pushing up on the loco or if the rear one just isn't making good enough contact.  I did notice the unwanted cycling seemed to happen when the front roller went over a bump, so as a gap where tubular track isn't fully pulled together and also on fast-track of two different vintages where the center rail height is just slightly different.  

Attached are some pics I took this morning before I left the house with my tablet.  Sorry not the best quality photos.  

The rollers and mounts are brand new.  The engine was just gone over by a shop that knows what they are doing, but of course test running is usually limited.  

Also I see any weights in the cab as some one mentioned.  Does Anyone have examples or notes for adding weight to improve adhesion?

(Also, yes I started cleaning track last night!)

JZ

It looks like the weight that belongs in the cab (a good 6 oz on mine I think) is missing, I believe that there is also a weight in the steam chest on mine. For the reverse, you might want to check to see if either the lever is loose (requiring bending to tighten) or there is a wire that is overly stripped and grounding on the frame.

No oil on the rollers, wil get on the track.  I would work more on the rollers, their spring and movement. They should be able to handle slight track irregularities, especially 3 rail. Definitely make sure all 4 wheels are squared and functioning.  As for adding weight, try to balance it in the engine-don't put everything on one end. I use lead musket balls that I flatten with a hammer. I have extra heavy lead bullets for reloading that I have't used that are good too.   Just add some weight and see how it works-no rules that I know of. My 259 isn't a strong puller either.  My 261 and 262 are !!

Jon, Sorry you are still having a problem w/ the 259. I re-adjusted the rollers when you returned it, (the rear roller was not making sufficient contact). It is a balancing act of not enough or too much pressure on the rail. After adjustment we ran on the store layout for 15 minutes w/o a stop. Using oil on the roller pins is 'frowned upon', as the oil will eventually 'fry slightly' making good contact worse. The 'e' unit lever is normal tight, no problem there. I would check your track for 'dips' in the rail. If you plan to normally just run forward, perhaps 'locking' into forward only will suffice.  The 258 & 259 are probably the worse locos for pulling power.  Harry 

Harry Henning posted:

Jon, Sorry you are still having a problem w/ the 259. I re-adjusted the rollers when you returned it, (the rear roller was not making sufficient contact). It is a balancing act of not enough or too much pressure on the rail. After adjustment we ran on the store layout for 15 minutes w/o a stop. Using oil on the roller pins is 'frowned upon', as the oil will eventually 'fry slightly' making good contact worse. The 'e' unit lever is normal tight, no problem there. I would check your track for 'dips' in the rail. If you plan to normally just run forward, perhaps 'locking' into forward only will suffice.  The 258 & 259 are probably the worse locos for pulling power.  Harry 

Harry,

 I have absolutely no complaints regarding your service whatsoever.  You were great to work with.  The e unit lever feels fine.  As i stated before, this is my first tinplate engine, so I really didn't know what to expect.  I am going to try to bend the rear roller down a touch and see how that works, along with adding some weight.

My track isn't the best, it was meant to be temporary.  

I had no idea as to the pulling power I should have expected, it just seem really anemic.  

Now that you have it functioning properly, I don't mind trying to tweak it a bit.  Also, I have a few other things that might be coming your way soon as well

It looks like the spring on the rear pickup is compressed. It is tricky to restore the arch in the spring to provide enough contact pressure.  I use an angled dental pick, but you may have to bend the spring at the Lionel label to provide more pressure.  One note about track. MTH's RealTrax and Lionel's Fasttrack have all three rails at the same height.  The center rail on original tubular track is slightly higher due to the insulator.  While the loco may run Ok on tubular track, if spring pressure is minimal or they don't have enough travel, operation on modern track will be poor.  You can easily check this by placing the loco on a piece of loose track and while raising and lowering the loco on the track, sight down the center rail and  see how well the rollers contact the center rail.

Well, it's getting better.   I  bent the rear spring down a little,  just prying on it some by hand. Also I fixed the worst gap in the tubular track.  Both these things seemed to help.  I was able to run the engine for about 20 minutes without a hick up,  but that was running engine light.  

Next step will be to add some weight front and back.

When cycling the reverse unit however it often needed a nudge to get moving in forwar .  This is what I don't like about mechanical e units. I know it's blasphemy to some but I was serious about prefering an electronic reverse unit if it will fit.  

Also this engine needs a voice.  There has to be some sort of whistle board that will fit into the small space available in the tender.  I will have to talk to Dallee to see what can be done.

Btw, did Mth ever make any of the tinplate coupler transition cars they advertised last year?  I think they all got cancelled but it would be handy to have one or two.

JZ

Can't help you on the e unit conversion and the sound board but I have made a couple transition cars and a couple of adapter couplers for Lionels and Marx units. 

JZ,

Don't expect your 259e to pull more than 3-4 cars. As for roller lubrication, I use CRC 2-26 Contact Cleaner to lubricate my rollers with no ill effects on tubular track.

If your e-unit cycles, it is usually one of two things - a loose lever retaining rivet, or bad electrical contact. You have received many valid replies on this front.

You are getting lots of great advice here. As for a coupler converter, don't overlook the Lionel TT-100/TS-162. 

bmoran4 posted:

JZ,

Don't expect your 259e to pull more than 3-4 cars. As for roller lubrication, I use CRC 2-26 Contact Cleaner to lubricate my rollers with no ill effects on tubular track.

If your e-unit cycles, it is usually one of two things - a loose lever retaining rivet, or bad electrical contact. You have received many valid replies on this front.

What is the difference between the 258 and 259E motors? My 258 pulls 7-8 cars most days.

All of the above suggestions are way valid. All that I would add is checking that your front truck (or rear for that matter)  is not lifting slightly in a turn or on dips... then re-touching. I have a Standard gauge 390 that was doing that. It took me slowly running it around and watching all sides to find the problem.  When the problem happened, I pulled it back over that spot and did it again. After I established it was happening in a certain spot repetitively the rest was elementary.

Thanks everyone.  Like I said the problem is getting better with both adjustments to the rear pickup roller and the track.  

I get a pair of the TS-162 adapters from Hennings.  Using one of them was how I found out the pulling power was rather weak.  From my observations with the one engine for the short period of time I have had it operational, It seems that the motor has enough power for five or six cars, it just lacks adhesion.  I am hoping that some extra weight improves that.

Yes the feedback on this thread has been fantastic.

JZ

Part of the problem might be that the postwar cars roll heavier than prewar ones do. The old pizza flange wheels have a lower rolling resistance, I usually roll 7-8 car trains behind mine (except my lighted Ives cars, it only will pull 3 of them); postwar trucks, it usually slip horrendously with only 3.