6-18043 Lionel Yellow Belly....you gotta be kidding me!

Did you buy it brand new from Lionel when it came out umpteen million years ago?....or was it bought second hand quite a few years ago?......

Pat

Hey Pat...

Engine was bought new from a Lionel dealer. I still have the original receipt.

BTW.....I like the "umpteen million years ago"......it cracked me up!

Yeah, they’ve been around for a minute....I’ve seen that very same wire pinched on those yellow bellies before....common occurrence....my dad was a dealer when they were new, and I remember servicing them under warranty.......that being said, that time period Lionel used some pretty crappy low-bid grease that tended to dry up and turn to rocks after only a few years when they were new...not totally sure you can condemn the ol’ big L for this 100% ....theres a good chance the dealer might have had to open it up and clean out the gear box ...and then things got missed putting it back together ....and possibly pinching wires in the process.......the other broken wire, ( blue wire)  can be attributed to old age and treachery, as sometimes old solder joints can break all on their own with out help from anybody....I know I’ve cleaned out a blue million of these Pulmor gear boxes with the grease as hard as darn it....😉

Pat

could have been a Monday or Friday build...

Joe.....I'm thinkin it was a  Monday hangover build.

Pat.....would you know if that's the lug on the motor where the Blue wire should attach (the pic is another view of the motor and where I found the wire)?

Maybe I need to try and find a schematic.

Wait! I also have the 6-18045 777 Commodore Vanderbilt. The chassis of the Yellow Belly looks similar to the 777. I'll have to check the motor on the 777 to see of it has a Blue wire attached to the same lug. Hmmmmm

Junior, yes, you can use the 777 as a guide,....they’re mechanically 100% identical....good idea!..

Pat

the blue wire solders to the brush bracket, the same one as the black/white wire goes. The solder lug in the pictorial wiring diagram also shows it loose too! i would suspect it is for chassis ground. Check out the wiring diagram on Lionel's site.

I'm betting the lug comes from the hole below it in the picture near the wire tie. Missing screw. Let us know.

Junior, Wow!!  What a mess!!  My wife bought a brand new '84 Chevrolet a few months before we got married.  We had it 4 years, and I always said it must have been built on New Years Day!!!  The only reason we kept it as long as we did was we hoped we would get some use after sinking so much money into it.  The next Chevy we bought used was a great car!

I can appreciate what Pat said about the grease, pinched wires, solder joint giving way; but what's the deal with that big unattached lug??

The ground lug un-attached in Junior’s photo gets screwed to the gear box cover, you can clearly see that screw missing....again, as mentioned, most likely culprit with that is somebody cleaning out a gummed up gear box....a 4-40X1/4” screw with a lock washer will fix that in a jiffy....

Pat

Okay.....Top picture is the Yellow Belly motor. Bottom picture is the Commodore motor (note the Red LED for the Firebox flicker)....

Chuck....you're right on the money! Never would guessed it was soldered to the motor's brush bracket.

Chuck & Marty....the rogue solder lug in the wire loom should ground out to the frame? I have see if I can find where. And yes.....I'll locate the wiring diagram.

I'll keep you all updated.

Thanks guys!

Now there's and engine I wish we could see in Legacy...

Good luck getting yours sorted!

Junior, your missing a screw in the gear box cover, right near where that lug is sitting....use a 4-40X1/4  screw with a lock washer, and you’ll be good....keep us posted buddy!..

Pat

@Jeff T posted:

Now there's and engine I wish we could see in Legacy...

Good luck getting yours sorted!

It can happen ....I’ll Pittman swap it, and then send it to Bruk for Legacy upgrades.....these are all over the bay for cheap (ish)....☺️

Pat

You Guys are making me laugh so hard my hands are shaking....can't solder!🤣

Wait! The Lovely Mrs. Junior is calling me for dinner....be back soon all!

@Junior posted:

You Guys are making me laugh so hard my hands are shaking....can't solder!🤣

Wait! The Lovely Mrs. Junior is calling me for dinner....be back soon all!

I see I made a mistake in the screw length I set in my reply....the correct length is 1/4” .....so 4-40 X 1/4” ....that’s the correct screw...my bad...

Pat

You might want to do a quick check before screwing the solder lug down as Pat is suggesting. Quickly brush the lug against the frame and look for any spark, do this fast. If you do, don't mount to anything. It may be a ground lug, but I'm not absolutely curtain. It is not mounted per the wiring diagram.

I am guessing after the assembly line started for this engine, something was found not right and needed a fix right then and now. This may be why the solder lug was zipped-tied to the circuit board bracket. I'm sure the tie was not in the original design.

Oh, PS that is not a red LED for a firebox flicker. It is a red GOW bulb, no flicker.

@Chuck Sartor posted:

You might want to do a quick check before screwing the solder lug down as Pat is suggesting. Quickly brush the lug against the frame and look for any spark, do this fast. If you do, don't mount to anything. It may be a ground lug, but I'm not absolutely curtain. It is not mounted per the wiring diagram.

I am guessing after the assembly line started for this engine, something was found not right and needed a fix right then and now. This may be why the solder lug was zipped-tied to the circuit board bracket. I'm sure the tie was not in the original design.

Oh, PS that is not a red LED for a firebox flicker. It is a red GOW bulb, no flicker.

It’s a ground lug Chuck....here’s a yellow belly apart on my bench.....clearly grounded to ground....😉

Pat

OK Pat. Never hurts to be too careful! (See my first post)

@Chuck Sartor posted:

OK Pat. Never hurts to be too careful! (See my first post)

Quite right Chuck, one false move and pooooof.....out comes the magic smoke....guess it would’ve helped if I’d posted that pic out the gate, ...I’m getting ready to swap out a yellow belly....

Pat

Chuck, Pat...

I must've been channeling my fear to the both of you! It looks like ground lug....but is it?

Here's the C&O wiring diagram....

.....and you can see the lug with the White and 3 Black wires attached to it (above the board image at its top, left corner). And there's a caption near the lower right corner of this picture that sez "Ground symbol to frame and outside rails" but shows nothing else.

I will do the quick "swipe test" of the lug to the frame to see if it "sparks" tomorrow.

I'll keep you all posted.

PS. Thanks Pat for pic of the lug on your Yellow Belly. I see the Black wires and can make out the White wire as well. And now I clearly see where the lug is supposed to attach.

PPS. Thanks Chuck for the correction re. the GOW bulb vs. LED.

I wrapped a short length of wire around the lug, applied power to the engine and preformed the "spark test" and........SUCCESS; no spark! 😥

I connected the tender and ran the following test....

....and as you can see, it's all good! I can button everything up as soon as I pick up the right sized screw for the lug and fasten it down.

Thank You so much to ALL of You who posted your thoughts and assistance.....and funny comments too.

PS. Pat....I picked up from one of your comments that you've done motor swaps? Mind if I email you about this?

Hey All....

Do any of you know if the #4-40 x 1/4 screw threads are NC or NF?

While it won't have Legacy, 3rd Rail is currently offering this locomotive in it's original orange color and the later yellow.

The Lionel one was a great engine for it's time. No question there.  Hope you get it back together and running well!

Not to excuse the mess, but Lionel was kind of know for stuff like this at that time. I had more trouble with engines from this era than any other. I'd guess that not a single employee from those days is still with the company today.

For anyone concerned about exposed wiring or solder lugs potentially coming in contact with something they're not supposed to, a little liquid electrical tape can help.

@Junior posted:

Hey All....

Do any of you know if the #4-40 x 1/4 screw threads are NC or NF?

4-40 NC ...and yes, you may contact me, emails in my profile...

Pat

Yellow Belly is put back together the Right way and operational again....couldn't have done it without guys!

Good to see that it is running fine.

Gotta like a successful repair.....good job....what’s next?..😉

Pat

@jonnyspeed posted:

Not to excuse the mess, but Lionel was kind of know for stuff like this at that time. I had more trouble with engines from this era than any other. I'd guess that not a single employee from those days is still with the company today.

At that time, a lot of them were UAW ........

Pat

A little late to the party.  Glad it's running.  Did you check carefully to make sure that the original loose screw isn't rattling around somewhere inside the engine where it could cause future problems?

What's next? This all started because the YB literally jumped every time it ran over a Lionel 072 switch.

I was in the process of "tuning" the switches when the tender jumped the track completely and landed on its side. This is when the wire broke loose from the motor and yada-yada-yada.

But the switch fiasco is a different topic for another time (assuming I don't completely lose it and replace them all with Ross drop-in replacements)!

Hey Mallard.....yep....screw is definitely gone. There's quite a bit of space between the engine body and frame.

I think it was more a situation like Pat described. The vendor I bought the engine from (New....not used) did maintenance on it and did not replace all the screws. Because it was a ground lug, no damage was done to the electronics if the lug touched the body or frame.

@Junior posted:

What's next? This all started because the YB literally jumped every time it ran over a Lionel 072 switch.

I was in the process of "tuning" the switches when the tender jumped the track completely and landed on its side. This is when the wire broke loose from the motor and yada-yada-yada.

But the switch fiasco is a different topic for another time (assuming I don't completely lose it and replace them all with Ross drop-in replacements)!

Sorry, this is a mechanical dept. thread.....not an MOW thread....sounds like a job for the track gang...🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Pat