CALM DOWN, PEOPLE !
Jeez, remember we're going there to buy TOYS and to have fun.
That's a excellent post for goodness sake.
Larry
Allan, where were you hiding Thursday & Friday, maybe behind Jim Barrett. I looked for you several times, never found you.
From Allan Miller: My own personal druthers, if I was pressed to express them (which I frequently am), would be, in light of evolving trends in the hobby and the industry in recent years, to see the Eastern Div. scale back to a once-a-year event--preferably held in October. I also would probably recommend that it be further scaled back to a two-day event, although that might not be necessary if it became an annual rather than a semi-annual event."
Although I disagree with Allan on some aspects of the hobby, we do agree on many things. I do think he's an excellent toy trainman, a good writer and an effective and strong proponent for our hobby.
But.
The above statement is a point of strong disagreement, I've been to 30 York Meets and I live in Santa Barbara. It's a major effort to get to York (what is it - 2700 miles??) - but it's never been unpleasant or a disappointment. Good friends. Good trains. Visiting museums, riding tourist trains and taking in historic sites ... all are part of the "experience" that adds value.
If the Meet were trimmed to one two-day period once a year, I'd probably forego the trip, forego York, because the value of the "experience" would diminish. Not enough time for trains and probably not enough time to friends unless the social time were re-arranged. Less value. No strong motivation to go.
We've pretty much seen the decline and fall of the once robust Cal Stewart Meets out here on the Coast. Higher rents at attractive venues forced movement to far, far less desirable locations, and, along with some decline in toy train interest, fewer are willing to make an effort to get to Cal Stewart. The social part of Cal Stewart has become an effort. Not too much fun any longer.
The Cal Stew Meets I've attended since the '80s are now on life support for the future.
The point is, I guess, that major re-structuring can have severe and unexpected consequences. Allan's suggestion would certainly change the value of the York Meet, and, IMO, not for the better.
I agree, York needs to stay twice a year. I just wish that it would open at 9 or 10 am Thursday. We don't need Saturday at all. Just my 2 cents.
Above are the reasons I let my TCA membership lapse.
Ask yourself why a WGH show for 2 days gets a higher attendance than the York meet with multiple buildings.
I have to Totally agree with RT, I too had attended Southern Calif Cal Stewarts for 15years or more in Pasadena, what great times, it was an event. Great friends, great food and drink, great location, great venue, Pasadena Convention Center, with rooms, and a decent show well attended. Scince they moved it, I have never attended, probably never will again, how is that better?
Pretty much the same for Nor Cal Cal Stewart, use to be a almost as good as So Cal, moved the venue, attendance dropped, downward spiral, I have never attended, now a 1 day toy show. Sad.
RWDeano
superwarp1 posted:
The one thing I do know is it was almost impossible in the early 2000's to get a hotel room, now it's easy as pie for either spring or fall meets. So you can't tell me numbers aren't down.
You may be correct, but there may be a lot more rooms now than there were 15 years ago. Perhaps the York Visitors Bureau has such data.
BMT-Express posted:
Ask yourself why a WGH show for 2 days gets a higher attendance than the York meet with multiple buildings.
two completely different meet/shows ....i dont see how you could compare these...
Jim Berger posted:BMT-Express posted:
Ask yourself why a WGH show for 2 days gets a higher attendance than the York meet with multiple buildings.
two completely different meet/shows ....i dont see how you could compare these...
Yep - you can't compare. WGH makes money and brings excited new adults and children into the hobby. And posts 20,000+ attendance numbers. TCA would love those numbers. Wonder what they are doing wrong?!
BMT-Express posted:Jim Berger posted:BMT-Express posted:
Ask yourself why a WGH show for 2 days gets a higher attendance than the York meet with multiple buildings.
two completely different meet/shows ....i dont see how you could compare these...
Yep - you can't compare. WGH makes money and brings excited new adults and children into the hobby. And posts 20,000+ attendance numbers. TCA would love those numbers. Wonder what they are doing wrong?!
When the WGHS came to Philadelphia there were large newspaper ads, constant radio ads, and a digital billboard ad on the nearby highway. There were very few dealers selling stuff other than "Thomas" and toy stuff. But yes, it drew 40,000, mostly young families. Our modular group, along with many others, were there for the entire weekend. 40,000 people trying to use 2 restrooms for each sex was a challenge. The state police had to close the exit to Oaks due to traffic jams. Parking? Forget it.
eddie g posted:I agree, York needs to stay twice a year. I just wish that it would open at 9 or 10 am Thursday. We don't need Saturday at all. Just my 2 cents.
Eddie,
I missed you! I need to stay at least one more day so I can come by the Wydham to find you.
We should keep some things the same so that folks like you still enjoy coming. That doesn't mean we can't add a couple of features to entice the masses to travel to the middle of PA.
I think the other shows people are talking about are close to big cities. York is 2 hours from Philly, and Philly is not near as big as New York, Boston or Chicago.
George
BMT-Express posted:Yep - you can't compare. WGH makes money and brings excited new adults and children into the hobby. And posts 20,000+ attendance numbers. TCA would love those numbers. Wonder what they are doing wrong?!
You truly cannot fairly compare the York Train MEET with the World's Greatest Hobby SHOWS (and others, such as Trainfest in Milwaukee or even the Big E. They are two very different types of events with different target audiences. It's great that the WGH SHOWS do so well. They introduce large numbers of the general population to the diverse world of model railroading through exposure to layouts and product ranging from Z to G. The York MEET, as has been explained many times before on this forum, was and still is an Eastern Division TCA gathering for members, and it has a decided "toy train" emphasis with the intent of primarily being a marketplace for buying, selling and trading trains (mostly Std. Gauge, O, and S, with a smattering of other scales and gauges). In more recent times, York has also provided the opportunity for manufacturers and suppliers to meet face-to-face with what is arguably their most important customer base. It is preaching to the choir, to be sure, but it's a choir that most industry folks would really like to have singing in tune with the products they provide.
Since l could not make York this Spring, l made an effort to track down the two big two catalogs. Many engines were recycled. Nothing much seems new anymore, and to me the old stuff seems picked over with less coming out of attics. With few acquisitions the last attended Yorks, there is something missing.
I always enjoy York, be it the April or the October version.
This time around, I did some informal polling of vendors as to business conditions. Thursday was pretty light for those I spoke with (in Orange and Purple Halls). But it was also around 45 degrees with rain / sleet most of the afternoon. Only the true fanatics (or 
) were in attendance.
Friday was much busier with actual traffic jams in some of the member halls.
George
Allan Miller posted:BMT-Express posted:Yep - you can't compare. WGH makes money and brings excited new adults and children into the hobby. And posts 20,000+ attendance numbers. TCA would love those numbers. Wonder what they are doing wrong?!
You truly cannot fairly compare the York Train MEET with the World's Greatest Hobby SHOWS (and others, such as Trainfest in Milwaukee or even the Big E. They are two very different types of events with different target audiences. It's great that the WGH SHOWS do so well. They introduce large numbers of the general population to the diverse world of model railroading through exposure to layouts and product ranging from Z to G. The York MEET, as has been explained many times before on this forum, was and still is an Eastern Division TCA gathering for members, and it has a decided "toy train" emphasis with the intent of primarily being a marketplace for buying, selling and trading trains (mostly Std. Gauge, O, and S, with a smattering of other scales and gauges). In more recent times, York has also provided the opportunity for manufacturers and suppliers to meet face-to-face with what is arguably their most important customer base. It is preaching to the choir, to be sure, but it's a choir that most industry folks would really like to have singing in tune with the products they provide.
Jim Berger posted:
BMT-Express posted:
Ask yourself why a WGH show for 2 days gets a higher attendance than the York meet with multiple buildings.
two completely different meet/shows ....i dont see how you could compare these...
Thank you, Alan, it was the point I was trying to make.....I guess some folks don't get it....
Jim Berger posted:Allan Miller posted:BMT-Express posted:Yep - you can't compare. WGH makes money and brings excited new adults and children into the hobby. And posts 20,000+ attendance numbers. TCA would love those numbers. Wonder what they are doing wrong?!
You truly cannot fairly compare the York Train MEET with the World's Greatest Hobby SHOWS (and others, such as Trainfest in Milwaukee or even the Big E. They are two very different types of events with different target audiences. It's great that the WGH SHOWS do so well. They introduce large numbers of the general population to the diverse world of model railroading through exposure to layouts and product ranging from Z to G. The York MEET, as has been explained many times before on this forum, was and still is an Eastern Division TCA gathering for members, and it has a decided "toy train" emphasis with the intent of primarily being a marketplace for buying, selling and trading trains (mostly Std. Gauge, O, and S, with a smattering of other scales and gauges). In more recent times, York has also provided the opportunity for manufacturers and suppliers to meet face-to-face with what is arguably their most important customer base. It is preaching to the choir, to be sure, but it's a choir that most industry folks would really like to have singing in tune with the products they provide.
Jim Berger posted:
BMT-Express posted:
Ask yourself why a WGH show for 2 days gets a higher attendance than the York meet with multiple buildings.
two completely different meet/shows ....i dont see how you could compare these...
Thank you, Alan, it was the point I was trying to make.....I guess some folks don't get it....
Will the last hall captain please turn out the lights.
gunrunnerjohn posted:Traindiesel posted:I think the York Meet should be open on Sunday too.
That's because you aren't a vendor! A number of vendors have left because the meet was extended to three days, and more would leave it it was four days! Great for the attendees, not so good for the vendors. However, if you chase all the vendors away, it won't be so great for the attendees.
You tend to get a better "feel" for a train show when you are there, for the entire run, as a dealer or a modular group member. After many Greenberg shows, my impression of Sunday is: young families with kids taking advantage of a day out. I remember seeing very few carrying large packages (train sets?), and purchases seem to be inexpensive train related toys. This is all fine, but if York turned into another Greenberg, I'll save the TCA yearly dues, ticket price, and the 2-hour drive. BTW, although we have 6 Greenberg shows each year within a 2-hour drive of my house, I have not been to one for 4 years.
I used to watch Joe Grzyboski set up at WGH, with a wall of trains. By Sunday you could see the table where they'd been.
I don't think he was giving them away.
24,000 people PAYING - 13,000 and dwindling - When you can get a seat at Coombs Tavern you know the decline is picking up speed.
Suum cuique
BMT-Express posted:Yep - you can't compare. WGH makes money and brings excited new adults and children into the hobby....
...and York has become a social gathering of old friends who are not interested attracting anyone new to their private “meet.”
It’s called a death spiral.
York Meet needs more members like the Muffins. I don't hear them complaining too much, except perhaps about how busy they are.
This is all so familiar. I've been reading this forum since 2000 and it's the same song and dance all the time. Vendors are heard at every York Meet twice a year saying "sales are terrible, I'm not doing these shows anymore!" Same for Greenberg Shows, Allentown Meets and other shows around the country, even at Worlds Greatest Hobby Shows. This hobby is going into the tank, we should just throw all our trains into the dumpster and set them on fire!
Yet, the vendors still come because they can't resist putting their stock in front of thousands of people. Yes a few do not return, but nobody remembers them after a while. When someone gets excited about buying a new train, nobody says "but I wish I bought it at xyz shop."
It's comforting to still see everything is rolling along like always for the last 18 years. The crowds haven't diminished significantly enough that there aren't a few nefarious hobbyists who scoop up trains I'm thinking about before I get back to buy it!
It’s called a death spiral.
Not a death spiral.
Just a trend back towards the show's roots.
For folks in the dealer halls, and those only there to buy new stuff, maybe its a bad thing.
For folks into the social aspects, and buying / selling trains with fellow members, maybe not so much.
Did RMT show up?
Did the OGR display move to another hall? I only do the orange hall.
Tom Tee posted:Did the OGR display move to another hall? I only do the orange hall.
They were next to Mr. Muffin, which they announced before the meet. No DVDs for sale, just the building fronts, I think, so the display was very small.
RICH, I don't understand why you are always so negative about York. 
david1 posted:These are from a few vendors and a couple of the major mfgs.
There were several major figures in the train business that stated they may not return next April unless major issues are resolved. Those issues will be discussed when they get back to work next week.
Several vendors are also not very happy with crowds that were there Thursday or Friday
This was not hearsay, but from the horses mouth.
Dave
Let me tell you what I heard:
1) Dad, it's raining - how come I have to take the purchases to the car?
2) Dad, can I have some money to buy trains?
3) Dad, my feet hurt can you drive me to the other halls?
4) Dad, can I have a beer at dinner?
Those my "son" and I spoke to at the meet will understand this post. My apologies to those who don't understand the context. My warped humor at play.
-Greg
Traindiesel posted:TCA and the Eastern Division already have a Facebook presence. That’s where everyone gets their news and information, right?
But sadly the Eastern Div posted little or nothing of upcoming April meet after the Oct '17 meet via their social media pages (Facebook, Twitter, Instagram) nor it appears to groups outside their in-house following. Were local (Harrisburg, York, Lancaster, Philadelphia, Baltimore) TV stations contacted to do a free info piece of what people and families can see at this meet and what the TCA stands for in the hobby and community?
I've been going to York since 1998. Due to my schedule I attended only on Saturdays except April 2017 and April 2018 and one Oct meet about 12yrs ago. Over the past 5 years the pace and energy of Saturday has greatly diminished. Parking was spaciously available in the 1st or 2nd row in front of Orange hall. Saturday aisle walkabouts were more relaxed, but also it was more evident of the fewer dealers and manufacturers present with each meet. As others said in many threads/posts, the number of table holders that would pack up (almost fully by 11am) was annoying and frustrating since it appeared that there were no repercussions to those offenders by hall captains or E.Div officials.
OGR Webmaster posted:BMT-Express posted:Yep - you can't compare. WGH makes money and brings excited new adults and children into the hobby.......and York has become a social gathering of old friends who are not interested attracting anyone new to their private “meet.”
It’s called a death spiral.
I'm definitely an Orange Hall and Purple Hall guy. I buy all my stuff in these two halls. It is my hope that 20 years from now I will be doing the same. But, if 20 years from now only the Blue and Silver Hall remain, I think I would be content having a social gathering of old friends amongst all those old and forgotten trains, for a couple of days of the year. BigRail
C W Burfle posted:It’s called a death spiral.
Not a death spiral.
Just a trend back towards the show's roots.
For folks in the dealer halls, and those only there to buy new stuff, maybe its a bad thing.
For folks into the social aspects, and buying / selling trains with fellow members, maybe not so much.
The return to its roots might be the best long term or inevitable solution. The E.Div/York meet rode the wave of toy train resurgence and in doing so may have flaunted some swagger. As time moves, people, interests and companies change. A retrench back to its roots will still provide Eastern Division members their opportunity to continue to meet to trade and sell trains - likely without all the bells and whistles (pros/cons) of the dealers, manufacturers/importers and related hobby suppliers. There still would remain the issue of cost of the venue. In 2017 an E.Division official told me that the York Fairgrounds were not always flexible with the terms of the leasing agreement.
What the World's Greatest Hobby Show does is attract young families who are looking for something to do with their kids to get out of the house. They walk around, ooo and ahhh at all the trains as they push their strollers around (and we know how some of you hate that!). What good is it to draw 20,000 people who are not buying anything, and may never buy anything. Those vendors must feel like they're in a zoo cage.
So if vendors pull out of the York Meet, they'll go sit in their shops and still not see anyone walk into their store. All while 10,000 to 12,000 buyers are attending York.
Return to the TCA roots? Oh hell NO! Without the big vendors like Charles Ro, Nickolos Smith, etc. and the mfgs. to show us what may be coming in the future. why have the show at all?
I have been going to York since the early 1980's and have enjoyed it every time. I go to buy the more modern trains and to see freinds but take it back to the old days I will then just go outside and watch grass grow. My days of attending York will have come to a end.
Dave
don't forget its beats going to work for thur and fri
any idea how many tables there this year
Talk about gloom and doom—-York in a death spiral——The death of TMCC upgrades. Life will go on, so I suggest we all try to make the best of it. One has to be flexible, adjustable to survive in this world today. The sun will rise tomorrow.
I spend most of my train budget at York. In April I have more money to spend (income tax return) then October. Once a year would be a long wait for my train fix. Thursday start time is good for me since the morning is my drive time. It is also less crowded so I don't feel rushed when purchasing something. I have not been disappointed with any York show I have attended. Yes, I think it needs to be advertised better, but no changes for me. We are lucky to have shows like this for our hobby. Thanks Eastern Division.
My take on York as a vendor. I had a great York this meet. There was a decent crowd in the orange hall, but not like it used to be in years past. I had a pretty steady steam of customers both Thursday and Friday and the time went by fast. Saturday on the other hand was empty with an occasional person walking down the center of the isle looking for a bargain. If EDTCA did away with Saturday all together and opened up Thursday at 10, I think most attendees and vendors would be happy.
Just my .02
Dennis LaGrua posted:If we wish to talk about a successful York meet these things need to happen:
All dealers need to sell enough product to pay for their trip and turn a decent profit
The ED needs a sufficient amount of dealers, TCA member and public admissions to pay for the fairgounds rental, security, sanitation, buses etc.
Point is that its all hooked together.
You forgot one other aspect of a successful meet...vendors being polite not talking on the phone, complaining and having decent prices. I go to shows to meet vendors, see thier product, learn, and buy. If prices are high or there is no customer service, I won't waste my time or money at a booth.
I have never been to York, but hope to attend one day, but reading all the threads about vendors and the lack of enthusiasm of vendors and customers...I may not want to go and just "think" I want to go...sometimes the thought is better than reality.
David1, Return to the TCA roots, HELL YES!
I drive 8 hours to attend the Spring York Meet. My Fall schedule is packed so I'm unable to attend then. I really like the lighter attendance of the Spring meet... There is more room to walk about and better deals. Sooooo, if you guys don't want to come, then don't. More deals for me!
