A few things I heard at York

I need to bring the wife who is a shrink to York.  She can get a table  and offer a 5 minute therapy to customers and dealers, she will make a killing.

Then I can go grab the moola and buy all the trains I want.

Dealers complaints.

I want it for nothing or somewhat close, is that your best price?  you got a bigger bag? I did not make a penny! 

Customer complaints;  They want full MSRP.   Oh! there is that car I wanted, you look at the price...Holy ^$%^&* that's a lot of #%*#@ money !

eddie g posted:

Allan, where were you hiding Thursday & Friday, maybe behind Jim Barrett. I looked for you several times, never found you.

Not hiding anywhere. Spent both days--all day Thursday and until 5 p.m. or so on Friday--in the Orange Hall, mostly meeting with dealers, manufacturers, authors, and potential authors. Since we had a relatively small booth area in a high-traffic area, and no extra chairs available, I generally met with folks out in the lobby/concession area of the hall when I wasn't walking the aisles. I had a thoroughly enjoyable time, as usual, as did my wife (who I think actually enjoys York more than I do). Left for Baltimore early on Saturday to take my stepdaughter to lunch before heading back to Ohio.

Keystone posted

The return to its roots might be the best long term or inevitable solution.  The E.Div/York meet rode the wave of toy train resurgence and in doing so may have flaunted some swagger.  As time moves, people, interests and companies change.  A retrench back to its roots will still provide Eastern Division members their opportunity to continue to meet to trade and sell trains - likely without all the bells and whistles (pros/cons) of the dealers, manufacturers/importers and related hobby suppliers.  There still would remain the issue of cost of the venue.  In 2017 an E.Division official told me that the York Fairgrounds were not always flexible with the terms of the leasing agreement.

That's pretty much the "evolution" I expect to see with this meet...at least over an extended period. And, frankly, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Collectors in the hobby--most any hobby for that matter--are the folks who keep the hobby alive and visible for future generations.

I'm not going to worry about it. I have trains aplenty and am building a new layout. I have wonderful friends who share the hobby, some of whom are local and some who are scattered around the country and world. Some are collectors and some (an increasing number) are operators. I tend to fall into that latter category these days, but truly enjoy both approaches to the hobby.

I don't spend time worrying about a future that, by virtue of my association with the magazine I can and do try to influence to some degree, but which I most definitely cannot control. A hobby--my hobby and any hobby--is for relaxation, escape from the everyday world (an increasingly important aspect), and just plain fun. That way of seeing it has served me well over most of a long lifetime. 

SIRT posted:

Did RMT show up? 

Nope...zilch, nada, nothing.

OGR Webmaster posted:

BMT-Express posted:

Yep - you can't compare.  WGH makes money and brings excited new adults and children into the hobby....

...and York has become a social gathering of old friends who are not interested attracting anyone new to their private “meet.”

It’s called a death spiral.

Rich, I usually agree with you but this is one time where I don't. Yes, the York Meet is shrinking and it may even be in a spiral downward (I doubt it will totally die) but I disagree it is because members want to keep it private. Remember back in the day when you needed two members to sign for a person so that person could become a member of the TCA? I personally witnessed people signing for people they just met. If there were some sort of conspiracy between members to keep it private then nobody told me about it. 

I think there isn't one reason why the Meet is shrinking but a bunch of factors that have been discussed here many times. Not much I can do about it but support the Meet by attending until it shrinks so much that it isn't worth the 2.75 hour drive to get there but even then I don't plan to drop my membership. 

big dog posted:

don't forget its beats going to work for thur and fri

any idea how many tables there this year

183 in the Orange Hall. Pretty darn good. Only down from 194 at the October Show, which is more heavily attended.

artyoung posted:

CALM DOWN, PEOPLE !

Jeez, remember we're going there to buy TOYS and to have fun.

 

Ditto!  There are plenty of nice dealers with good prices to make every York a blast!

Bob

If hearing stuff at the TCA museum counts, there were a couple of gents in the library discussing convention bids.  They said that there were no bids for conventions beyond 2020, which isn't very far into the future.  They attributed this to lack of interest.  Don't know the gents, and have no idea regarding the validity of what they said, but if true I don't think it's a good sign for TCA.

Okay, allow me to add my personal thoughts to the discussion.

First, the hobby is not "dying." The hobby is changing/evolving, which is somewhat inevitable and to be expected. The demographics have changed and those of us in the hobby as well as those supporting the hobby with product and services have to change with it. The O gauge world has been blessed with a phenominal amount of product starting roughly with the last decade of the previous century, and with exponential growth in the number of people who were eager to support this segment of the hobby. In alrge part, that population consisted of individuals, like myself, who had grown up with toy trains, passed through much of our adult lifetime doing the things the "real world" required of us, and who finally reached a point, financially and time-wise, where we could pursue a leisure activity and, in terms of model railroading, acquire the things we had, or wished we could have had, in our earlier years.

At the same time, the "real world" around us has been changing. Those of us who grew up with trains--real and model--are getting older. Not only that, but we also have had some 30 years now to acquire the trains we want--or feel we "need"--to support our modeling interests, and many of us are pretty much reaching something of a saturation point in terms of product. I know I am, and I am dealing with that "problem" by focusing on more specialized interests...particular road names, era to model, type of modeling and operation, etc. Even that has not really cut down on the number of new product I buy, but it has helped to reduce the overall inventory because I now tend to sell things in order to purchase new things (a practice  my wife tends to support and enforce).

The hobby retail segment has changed dramatically, thanks to the influence (for better or worse) of the Internet and also due to the fact that many of the folks who have been serving both the industry and the retail end of things are reaching, or are now past, retirement age and therefore closing up shop. There are, without doubt, far fewer hobby shops around today than there were just a mere decade ago, and that is not likely to change. The business model for making and selling model railroading product is very different today than it was back before the turn of the century. BUT, that does not mean the hobby is dying...that simply is not going to happen. It is just evolving and adjusting. It may be that there will be fewer overall participants in the future, but those participants will be just as avid and dedicated as what we are today, and new participants will be added on a regular and continuing basis.

The York Meet will continue to evolve. My guess is it will eventually return to its roots as a collector-oriented activity and event, and that is perfectly okay because collectors are the foundation of this segment of the hobby. Truth be told, they are the ones who will assure that the toy train hobby is perpetuated to future generations, be it in large numbers or small. There is, in my view, nothing wrong with seeing a Train COLLECTORS Association event go back to its roots so long as there are sufficient volunteers and participants willing to keep it going.

Now my personal interest these days is more in model railroading and its operating potential rather than toy train collecting. I used to be an avid collector--still am to a certain extent, I guess, because I have a ton of trains in various scales--but in recent years, thanks largely to advances in the technology of the hobby, I am far more interested in doing something with the trains I have. I have also discovered the fun of enjoying this operations-oriented activity with others who share that same interest. The technology--Legacy, DCS, DCC--combined with a treasure trove of wonderful new product and equally wonderful new friendships, has opened-up a whole new world of fun for me. 

As for the magazine and this forum that exists thanks to the magazine: We are doing quite well, thank you very much. If there are signs of us "dying", I have yet to detect them. Yes, we did go to 84 pages this year, upon MY recommendation. In the consumer magazine world, advertising foots the major portion of the publishing bill, while subscriptions support that effort. With manufacturers tightening their belts in recent years in terms of advertising dollars spent, and the number of retailers declining in our hobby and elsewhere, it simply made good sense to adjust things so we are more in line with a decent business model for a publication of our type. Most importantly, we still have the support of that always-most-valuable community of hobbyists and contributors who make the magazine (and this forum) what it is. So long as folks are willing to take the time to document and share their hobby experiences, I think it's safe to say that we will be around to spread the word both within and outside of our O gauge world. Be it in print or digital form--or both--there always is an insatiable appetite for information in any hobby. I'm hoping to be able to help provide that info for a while longer simply because I enjoy doing it and am able to do it. I'm at the age now where I don't really need a job, but I'm lucky enough to be doing a job that I thoroughly enjoy. It doesn't get much better than that...except, perhaps, for the fact that I now have my hobby-related laboratory (train room) in the basement below my home office.

Allan, thank you for maintaining a thick skin, taking the time to write a thoughtful post without hurling insults, and not closing the thread. 

At the end of the day, it IS just about toys.  However, they are very expensive toys, and they elicit a lot of memories and emotion - that's why trains remain important to so many of us.

Allan's comment would have made a great final post in this thread.

Well.....I have been watching this thread from the sidelines and there are many thoughtful posts (a few not so much)...but as the person with a direct connection to the advertising/marketing end of this business and now the publishing end as well....I can tell you that over the last 5 years the hobby has changed quite a bit from the perspective of what I have to deal with day to day.  There are far fewer advertising and subscriber dollars to help support our hobby's publications.  We have had to evolve along with the trends in marketing thus the reason why you have seen the changes in both the magazine as well as the forum.  The bottom line here is if you want a future that includes all things you enjoy about the hobby, you have to support it in positive ways....both financially and in the way you approach it.  To be honest, none of us in this business can be here without both the readership and the advertisers!  So....after reading all of the responses above and agreeing with many of them,  I have to say that much of what Allan Miller said summarizes the state we are in at this point in time.  We need to embrace the treads as best we can if we want the future to shine brightly on our beloved hobby.  I can assure you that OGR is going full steam ahead into that future and you will soon be seeing more changes here as the "O-Gauge Railroading Magazine Express" travels into what we believe will long future for our hobby.  We sincerely hope that as many of you as possible come aboard and enjoy what we at OGR consider the best hobby in the world...!

Thanks for your support!

Alan

Allan Miller posted:

Okay, allow me to add my personal thoughts to the discussion.

You have a way with words Allan, very well stated.  I also commend you for your thick skin, it isn't always easy to keep your cool in the face of an onslaught of insults.

Alan Miller, Editor-In-Chief, OGR,  your above comments above could not have been stated any better.  I agree 100% with you.  

RadioRon posted:

Farmer_Bill posted:

York Meet needs more members like the Muffins.  I don't hear them complaining too much, except perhaps about how busy they are.  

Unfortunately, they were among those who raised my ire by starting to pack up their stuff at 1p, or thereabouts on Saturday.   THAT we don't need more of.

Thanks, Farmer Bill. Sorry to disappoint you, Ron. Nine out of ten dealers don’t display engines outside of their boxes, and with over a hundred to box before our ten hour drive home, we do start boxing them earlier than 3pm. They’re still there on the table, just in their purple boxes. 

 I can only guess that anyone who complains about people packing up early, doesn't understand what's going on behind the scenes and what life's like doing this type of event. I had to pack tractor trailers worth of equipment at the end of every rock show. I too heard from attendees complaining about me rushing to pack everything immediately at the end of the show. They clearly had no idea of what went on and only got vocal because it interfered with their after show drinking and public showmanship. They also complained because I was stuck right there in front of them.

 I like when someone says they purchased a ticket and that gives them exclusive rights to act like they do. The other day a person grabbed a "live" baseball off of the field that was "in play". He was kicked out and I'm sure there was complaints. Just because you buy a ticket doesn't give you the rights you believe you should have. Drinking and driving after a football game also comes to mind first hand as an example!

 The public does not write the rules of an event. I personally am grateful for that. They usually have the worse ideas of what should be allowed, based on what they want at any given moment. They should be thankful that the event even allowed them in. Instead, they want the event tailored to their behavior. Usually the worse examples of human interaction that should never take place.

 Now the part about the show declining in today's market, it has to. People can sit at their computer, in their pajamas and order something that arrives right at their door. How can a brick and mortar store compete? How can a show evolve when the customers are actually spoiled by this?

I'm a newbie about 1 year in and building a layout. I appreciate the magazine to which I subscribe and this forum. I picked up a set of OGR back issues and indexed the articles I thought would be useful given my specific interests and my spiral-bound index has been amazingly useful, as have many of the threads on this forum. It would be impossible to estimate how much money OGR and the OGR forum has saved me--but it's a big number.  I am also a long time ham radio hobbyist and operator (N3RHT) and we sometimes see that debbie-downer negativism in ham radio. The ham bands suffer from guys who are disgruntled and get on the air with it. But just like here, they are a small part and minor distraction for thos of us who are busy having fun! Allan, Rich, Jim et al--keep it up. It's going great!

Don Merz

I totally agree with Alan and Allan and thank them for producing their outstanding magazine and sponsoring this forum.  (How did OGR get two people at the helm with almost identical names?)

 I subscribe to OGR not only because I like the magazine's content but because I know it helps keep the forum going.  Without the magazine this forum would not exist.  I prefer the print copy because I can read it wherever I am.  I have purchased every OGR video.  They are also outstanding (thanks Rich).   

I see the 3 rail hobby growing and evolving into a more operational oriented hobby.  Long time collectors who didn't even run trains are buying command control trains and building layouts.  I think that this trend will continue for as long as I can be active in the hobby.  Like many people on this forum, I am in my 70s with the time, money and most importantly, the health, to be active in this hobby.

 I want to thank the entire OGR crew for helping make this happen and keeping the hobby alive and well.

NH Joe

Alan, well said.

Jack

Gentlemen,

   What I have noticed here in the Pittsburgh, Pa area is that most of us OGR people are also big Classic Car Owners, it is definitely a generational participation.  Lots of people attend both events, when they are at different days and times.  One of the other OGR members has pointed this out, I totally agree with him.  Having both of these events on the same week end is a looser for both events.

Unfortunately in my particular case both York shows fall in my most busy time to the year. Training Gun Dogs & Teaching gunning for Grouse hunting, along with Teaching Fly Fishing, I am unable to attend York, the cost on my businesses would be to great.  

Even after I fully retire picking between the two would be tough.

PCRR/Dave

I go for all of Thursday and 1/2 of Friday, not ever going to attend if its on a weekend. 

Mark,

I tend to agree with you, many of the vendors are rude, ignore you even when you have a leg question. Second, in many cases the prices being asked are insane. Vendors, all of them, need to understand the market dynamics are changing, less people want older stuff, business model changes. I will wait patiently to ask a question  about an item but when someone walks away or ignores me - then I simply walk away an tell my friends to ignore that table. Courtesy appears to be in many cases non existent. 

As far as I am concerned, attending on Thursday and 1/2 of Friday - I can we find everything I need in 8 hrs. I have a budget and thats it. No more off the cuff buying. Second, I like to see not only what the major manufacturers are planning but I look for items that make my layout better.

In many cases, once I go through the halls, I go look at the layouts to get ideas and socialize. 

My suggestion, not looking to get hammered here, if you don't feel the show is worth the money, social activities, seminars then don't go. 

I don't think its any one but the LCCA, TCA, and the major manufacturers to build the hobby. 

I have never been to York.  I live near Las Vegas, Nevada and it is really difficult to take three days off work, fly out to PA, and figuring out how to get my prizes back home.  But, thanks to many of you on the OGR Forum I can dream about it and live vicariously through you.  Someday I will make the trek.  A big shout out to everyone at OGR and their Sponsors that make all this possible, your efforts are appreciated.

Chris Sheldon

Allan and Alan....thank you for your thoughts.....

The hobby is changing for me.....when my subscriptions of paper OGR and CTT run out in 2019, I go completely digital.

We have to change with the changing times.....the "good old days" will be what we make them in the future.

Peter

FireOne posted:

I have never been to York.  I live near Las Vegas, Nevada and it is really difficult to take three days off work, fly out to PA, and figuring out how to get my prizes back home.  But, thanks to many of you on the OGR Forum I can dream about it and live vicariously through you.  Someday I will make the trek.  A big shout out to everyone at OGR and their Sponsors that make all this possible, your efforts are appreciated.

Chris Sheldon

UPS is there, on the grounds of York, Blue / Silver hall, they are there to pack & ship for you.

UPS is there but; they have a 100% markup on the actual shipping cost.  Learned that lesson the hard way a few years back.  Better to take your stuff offsite and find another UPS store in the area.

Curt

Greg Houser posted:

david1 posted:

These are from a few vendors and a couple of the major mfgs.

There were several major figures in the train business that stated they may not return next April unless major issues are resolved. Those issues will be discussed when they get back to work next week. 

Several vendors are also not very happy with crowds that were there Thursday or Friday 

This was not hearsay, but from the horses mouth. 

Dave

Let me tell you what I heard:

1) Dad, it's raining - how come I have to take the purchases to the car?

2) Dad, can I have some money to buy trains?

3) Dad, my feet hurt can you drive me to the other halls?

4) Dad, can I have a beer at dinner?

Those my "son" and I spoke to at the meet will understand this post.  My apologies to those who don't understand the context.  My warped humor at play. 

-Greg

 

Missed this earlier. LOVE IT !!! 😁😁😁😁😁

Gerry

Allan said, "At the same time, the "real world" around us has been changing. Those of us who grew up with trains--real and model--are getting older. Not only that, but we also have had some 30 years now to acquire the trains we want--or feel we "need"--to support our modeling interests, and many of us are pretty much reaching something of a saturation point in terms of product."

Allan, what you say makes perfect sense -- for rational people. However, there are many, many people who irrationally just keep adding to their collection. I am one of them. I'm nowhere near as bad as some of my friends. It creates a real conflict between the rational me and the impulsive me. And the irrational me frequently wins. Perhaps the picture is not as bleak as anticipated.

Gerry

Putnam Division posted:

Allan and Alan....thank you for your thoughts.....

The hobby is changing for me.....when my subscriptions of paper OGR and CTT run out in 2019, I go completely digital.

We have to change with the changing times.....the "good old days" will be what we make them in the future.

Peter

Peter, last tuition payment. Time for an expanded ranch house with a huge train room to take up that extra time when you retire. And soak up some of that extra cash.

And yes, the digital edition of OGR. I like it much better than paper.

Gerry

I didn’t get a chance to walk around much having a sales table in the Silver Hall. I did walk through the Orange Hall Friday afternoon around 2PM and was surprised by how many empty tables there were.

One dealer who always had a big corner booth was not even there. I’ve not seen anything like that before.

One of our friends from the TMCCDemo group dropped out of the TCA when they decided to let the public in Friday. He only went to the dealer halls anyway so it made sense for him.

I wonder just how small of a minority I am in ..... that still enjoys a magazine in my hands that I bought from the hobby shop? Even the Walthers catalog, I know it's online, but I still prefer sitting in a chair with it.

I have digital subscriptions to two newspapers, though ..... as the news of the day is so fluid.

EBT Jim posted:

I wonder just how small of a minority I am in ..... that still enjoys a magazine in my hands that I bought from the hobby shop? Even the Walthers catalog, I know it's online, but I still prefer sitting in a chair with it.

I have digital subscriptions to two newspapers, though ..... as the news of the day is so fluid.

I totally agree.  Although I understand the need and want for digital magazines, I prefer my magazines either coming in the mail or buying them locally.  For me, I think digitally they lose their charm and readability.

roll_the_dice posted:

Dennis LaGrua posted:

If we wish to talk about a successful York meet these things need to happen:

All dealers need to sell enough product to pay for their trip and turn a decent profit

The ED needs a sufficient amount of dealers, TCA member and public admissions to pay for the fairgounds rental, security, sanitation, buses etc.

Point is that its all hooked together.

 

 

You forgot one other aspect of a successful meet...vendors being polite not talking on the phone, complaining and having decent prices.  I go to shows to meet vendors, see thier product, learn, and buy.  If prices are high or there is no customer service, I won't waste my time or money at a booth.

I was at CAMRC and I heard a vendor talking to a customer about service. He was saying that he tried his best to be fair because screwing over a customer even one time in the name of profit, when that customer could potentially be repeat business - for years - if he treated them fairly ... wasn't in anybody's best interest.  I feel like people forget that sometimes. Based on those comments, if he had been selling O gauge items, I would have purchased from him ... but alas, he was an HO dealer.

FireOne posted:

I have never been to York.  I live near Las Vegas, Nevada and it is really difficult to take three days off work, fly out to PA, and figuring out how to get my prizes back home.  But, thanks to many of you on the OGR Forum I can dream about it and live vicariously through you.  Someday I will make the trek.  A big shout out to everyone at OGR and their Sponsors that make all this possible, your efforts are appreciated.

Chris Sheldon

Any train shows in Vegas?

Deuce posted:

I was at CAMRC and I heard a vendor talking to a customer about service. He was saying that he tried his best to be fair because screwing over a customer even one time in the name of profit, when that customer could potentially be repeat business - for years - if he treated them fairly ... wasn't in anybody's best interest.  I feel like people forget that sometimes. Based on those comments, if he had been selling O gauge items, I would have purchased from him ... but alas, he was an HO dealer.

I agree.  I have owned several businesses over the last 20+ years and if I can't treat a customer the way I wish to be treated I have no business being in business.  Bad publicity goes farther than good any day...so if you treat someone poorly or give bad customer service that customer will tell 10+ people, if you give them great customer service, they may tell 1 or 2...but I would rather be in the minority here. 

I am a firm believer that businesses have forgotten how to have good customer service.  I blame equally the consumer and business.  I blame the consumer for going and getting information from a brick and mortar store and then buying online to save a few dollars and the business for being bitter about online shops.  The business if possible needs to be competitive to a point with online pricing, but the consumer does need to understand that having a store front and employees costs more than having a warehouse and no store front or having items drop shipped from the vendor.  I also blame the (most) online stores, not for having good pricing, for giving little to no customer service so we, as consumers, don't expect it anymore.

I have toyed with the idea of starting a hobby shop in my area, since we don't have one anymore, but realize I could only survive if I had an online presence also.  I doubt I do, but would love to one day.  I love this hobby and hope it grows and we bring new people young and old into the hobby as well as keep the ones in it already.

Sorry for the rant...customer service is a pet peeve of mine having been in the field on and off for the better part of my adult life.

WaynePA posted:

One of our friends from the TMCCDemo group dropped out of the TCA when they decided to let the public in Friday. He only went to the dealer halls anyway so it made sense for him.

I think that your friend is short sighted.  One reason that York exists in any form is that the Eastern Division of TCA sponsors it.  If there is no TCA there is no Eastern Division.  No one knows if a small group of hobbyists would band together to continue York if TCA did not exist.  

Hobbyists and perhaps all of us need to understand that we need to support organizations that make the things we enjoy in life possible.  If we are not volunteers, the least we can do is support the organizations financially.  A $50 TCA membership certainly will not break the bank of anyone who is purchasing expensive hobby equipment and materials.  If it does break their bank, they should not be in the hobby.

NH Joe

MartyE posted:

Somebody said above it's everyone's responsibility to promote the hobby. The EDTCA does a fine job but we are a shrinking hobby. I really don't see apps and computer control preventing that. It trickles down to all aspects of the hobby. I do my part where and how I can to promote but trains have a hard time competing with video games, endless after school activities, and disconnected parents.

 

Yet Lionel said 2017 was their best year ever, which was good news. I know it's complicated, and the hobby has certain stresses going on, but "Lionel's best year ever" and "shrinking hobby" don't go together. 

New Haven Joe posted:

Hobbyists and perhaps all of us need to understand that we need to support organizations that make the things we enjoy in life possible.  If we are not volunteers, the least we can do is support the organizations financially.  A $50 TCA membership certainly will not break the bank of anyone who is purchasing expensive hobby equipment and materials.  If it does break their bank, they should not be in the hobby.

Great financial advice!  Let's see:  my rolling stock purchases per year average about $50.  Well:  should I buy a piece of rolling stock every year, or send my $50 off to the TCA?  Hmmmmm.  Now, I get it!  I need to get OUT of the hobby altogether because I cannot afford to lavishly support the manufacturers AND contribute to an organization which gives me little benefit. 

You've found a fantastic way to build the hobby there, Joe:  tell people to leave it.

To quote one of my father's former COs:  "Nuts."

I did overhear one person say he was fed up with the York show.   After 3 years of trying to straighten out the York train people/show, he was giving up.  I give him 6 months to rethink that and come back.

Regardless, it's still the only show of it's kind and the best at it.