UPDATED 7-8-19 TWO NEW VIDEOS !!! A LOOK INSIDE THE LIONEL SUPER BASS B UNIT

Alex, very much looking forward to your take on the A units. Lots of people here frustrated with losing the engine ID on power up. I appear to be the only one with a different problem. Both of my A units experience frequent stalls when starting up at low speed. Lights flicker, then unit stops and either resets to cab light on and smoke unit on, or I get the dreaded single blinking cab light. Since only one stalls at a time, the other one tries to pull his stricken brother along! However, if they get past initial start-up without stalling then they can run all day, even at low speed, without stalling. Checked everything on layout and other Legacy engines continue to run trouble-free. 

Alex, is the enclosure an open box or are there passageways in there?

Also does one pair of wires from the board under the volume pot go directly to the speaker? If so, I am guessing that is a power amplifier to up the volume.

Pete

Wow that sound is amazing.  Although MTH has made advances in their sound quality over the past few years, IMHO Lionel is still the gold standard when it comes to locomotive sound.

Here’s a screen shot from the video of the inside of the baffle.  No passageways there.

Yep, the sound is a WOW! 

Alex, can you show everyone how the antenna is stuck to the roof of the shell? 

Beautiful sound Alex!!

Norton posted:

Alex, is the enclosure an open box or are there passageways in there?

Also does one pair of wires from the board under the volume pot go directly to the speaker? If so, I am guessing that is a power amplifier to up the volume.

Pete

Pete 

No passageways , just an open box. I’ll trace the wires tomorrow and get back To you. 

Alex 

Norton posted:

Alex, is the enclosure an open box or are there passageways in there?

Also does one pair of wires from the board under the volume pot go directly to the speaker? If so, I am guessing that is a power amplifier to up the volume.

Pete

Hi Pete,

Speaker wires go directly to the sound board

Alex

Thanks Alex. I wonder what that other board is then. I have a theory on the enclosure. Maybe Rudy will chime in here. Its true there is an ideal enclosure volume for each driver and rarely is there room for an enclosure big enough as there is here but I am wondering if this was also designed to resonate at the lower frequencies. 

Normally when you design the enclosure you don't want the panels to vibrate and color the sound but maybe in this case thats what they wanted to do. Two large panels made of thin material are likey to vibrate. 

Alex, if you haven't put that engine back together again maybe you could touch the sides as you blow the horn or start up the prime mover? If you grip it tight and the volume decreases you will know maybe that was the intent of that enclosure design.

Pete

JamesRx posted:

Alex, very much looking forward to your take on the A units. Lots of people here frustrated with losing the engine ID on power up. I appear to be the only one with a different problem. Both of my A units experience frequent stalls when starting up at low speed. Lights flicker, then unit stops and either resets to cab light on and smoke unit on, or I get the dreaded single blinking cab light. Since only one stalls at a time, the other one tries to pull his stricken brother along! However, if they get past initial start-up without stalling then they can run all day, even at low speed, without stalling. Checked everything on layout and other Legacy engines continue to run trouble-free. 

Hi James 

mine didn’t have that issue, but I do have the issue with both A units losing their engine IDs. As for yours I would send them back to be looked at. 

Alex 

Alex, that baffle sure does make a big difference!  Thank you for sharing that with us!

Mark Boyce posted:

Alex, that baffle sure does make a big difference!  Thank you for sharing that with us!

It really does!

I had the AC6000 Super Bass from many years ago, and it didn't have that baffle. I think Alex's unit sounds better.

Alex M posted:

JamesRx posted:

Alex, very much looking forward to your take on the A units. Lots of people here frustrated with losing the engine ID on power up. I appear to be the only one with a different problem. Both of my A units experience frequent stalls when starting up at low speed. Lights flicker, then unit stops and either resets to cab light on and smoke unit on, or I get the dreaded single blinking cab light. Since only one stalls at a time, the other one tries to pull his stricken brother along! However, if they get past initial start-up without stalling then they can run all day, even at low speed, without stalling. Checked everything on layout and other Legacy engines continue to run trouble-free. 

Hi James 

mine didn’t have that issue, but I do have the issue with both A units losing their engine IDs. As for yours I would send them back to be looked at. 

Alex 

Thanks Alex! Will do.

James

Norton posted:

Thanks Alex. I wonder what that other board is then. I have a theory on the enclosure. Maybe Rudy will chime in here. Its true there is an ideal enclosure volume for each driver and rarely is there room for an enclosure big enough as there is here but I am wondering if this was also designed to resonate at the lower frequencies. 

Normally when you design the enclosure you don't want the panels to vibrate and color the sound but maybe in this case thats what they wanted to do. Two large panels made of thin material are likey to vibrate. 

Alex, if you haven't put that engine back together again maybe you could touch the sides as you blow the horn or start up the prime mover? If you grip it tight and the volume decreases you will know maybe that was the intent of that enclosure design.

Pete

I bet grabbing it would decrease mid to low end somewhat. I doubt they went that far in design as to count on "passive radiation". If there is a positive aspect ,it was likely a happy byproduct in the high-midrange and above due to the small size of the enclosure panels.

Theywould have trouble with passive low range frequency reproduction imo. You need big air movement measured in volume/amount for lows. The small single divers and tinny nature of our materials tell me the more solid that enclosure the better. 

 I think a 2 way speaker system will be the next big improvement with the shrinking amp boards hopefully giving the designers enough room for a tweeter to remove some demands from the bass drivers.

 There are easier ways of designing bass enclosures (passages & port sizing can do TONS moving air correctly, Bose showed you that .E.g.,  You don't even see much if any passively radiated sound parts in hi-fi speaker enclosures made for improved phone/device sounds.  Enclosure size, then passages, & porting works wonders on mids and lows.  Passive radiation is usually a low cost fine tune method and then still needs deep movement of the powered speakers to be effective.

  Getting into larger car and home systems, actual passive radiators are a bit more common, but still rare for the most part. 

  They usually resemble a flat speaker vs a cone and are made of a dense material not subject to rattle by high frequency, but still reactive to mass air movement of lows from another driver ... like a flat sand filled pouch suspended by foam... I.e. you make a bigger speaker via surface area of two speakers without a second magnet driving #2, and#2 is dampened from making highs. Any more explanation dives pretty deep but the end result can be a less "buzzy" wider range speaker with one heck of a kick when somebody uses a hard stick/strike on a bass drum, especially a pedal bass drum with a solid hammer on it. Deep lows, usually 100% electronically created vs analog electrically boosted.. and deep kettle drums suffer slightly but low mids& mid lows separate..pop.

 They are also usually used with sealed enclosures, though I've set up two of my own systems with ports that improved things over two drivers in phase or opposed, sealed or ported, in mix and match system improvements (flatter & about 3db better on an over 80db kick, 6db over 90db, better mids and high end lows via the driven speaker choice. (better bass guitar delivery and sharp kicks). 

(I designed some vehicle audio for fun and friends, and more for use as outdoor open air systems... not waking neighbors or disturbing other folks at intersections 😇  at least not too often😨. Usually  just to drown out the idiot next to me who wasn't being as thoughtful 😈  Like running a sleeper cross ram wedge motor but seldom using it's full potential until weekends at the track 😁 (98db constant with bass peaks at 108db; not quite top end quality or competition range but at half their costs. The world record was 116db back then. Good enough for a park full of frisbee players. I hated a bunch of cars playing different songs and you couldn't hear any well 😉)

Here’s two more videos 

Thanks Alex!

Hi Alex: Very cool demonstration.....

The Lionel Catalog shows that this locomotive will work with:

Bluetooth® Control - Operate with Universal Remote or LionChief® App
LEGACY® and Bluetooth® control in both locomotives.

I do not have Legacy on my layout. Do you have a way to test this Super Base with the Lionel Universal Remote & Lionel Bluetooth App. & show this test with one of your videos?

Take care: Gary

Alex, I originally ordered only the AA set, but your videos convinced me to add on the Super Bass B! I’m expecting it tomorrow, but reading the manual tonight has me confused. There are switches to turn off crew talk or signals on the B unit, but why would anyone want to do that! What I would assume one would want to do is turn off the sounds on the A to avoid out-of-sync duplication of sounds, but the only way to do that is to turn down the master volume switch. So what is the proper way to configure this set to get the most out of the Super Bass B unit?

Gary and James 

I’ll get back to you guys with some answers as soon as I can 

Thanks , Alex 

Alex M posted:

Gary and James 

I’ll get back to you guys with some answers as soon as I can 

Thanks , Alex 

Thanks Alex! No rush. We always appreciate your expertise.

James

well done Alex

Just received the B unit and put it on the track....wow!  I think at full volume the sounds might even approach the decibel level of an actual train! LOL!

Thanks again, Alex.  I had no intention of getting the B unit until I saw your great videos. 

Looks like I was overthinking the whole duplicate sound issue. All I did was  enable all sounds on the B unit and turn the master volume switch on the lead A unit all the way down. That got rid of any out of sync duplication of sounds and let all the sounds go through the superior system of the B unit.

Believe it or not, in the attached video I have the sound turned all the way down so as not to wake the neighbors!

JamesRx posted:

Alex, I originally ordered only the AA set, but your videos convinced me to add on the Super Bass B! I’m expecting it tomorrow, but reading the manual tonight has me confused. There are switches to turn off crew talk or signals on the B unit, but why would anyone want to do that! What I would assume one would want to do is turn off the sounds on the A to avoid out-of-sync duplication of sounds, but the only way to do that is to turn down the master volume switch. So what is the proper way to configure this set to get the most out of the Super Bass B unit?

James you need to setup the AA and B as a Train in the legacy remote. Then remove the crew talk from the B unit, but keep the engine sounds / horn on the B unit. This is how I have mine setup and it will sound pretty awesome. Each unit needs to have its own unique ID when you create the train. If you need further help with this let me know.

* I like having the engine sounds and horn on both the B and A for the great rumble and echo effect. They stay in sync pretty well, the only thing that doesn't is the bell, but I actually like that too  

BNSF-Matt posted:

JamesRx posted:

Alex, I originally ordered only the AA set, but your videos convinced me to add on the Super Bass B! I’m expecting it tomorrow, but reading the manual tonight has me confused. There are switches to turn off crew talk or signals on the B unit, but why would anyone want to do that! What I would assume one would want to do is turn off the sounds on the A to avoid out-of-sync duplication of sounds, but the only way to do that is to turn down the master volume switch. So what is the proper way to configure this set to get the most out of the Super Bass B unit?

James you need to setup the AA and B as a Train in the legacy remote. Then remove the crew talk from the B unit, but keep the engine sounds / horn on the B unit. This is how I have mine setup and it will sound pretty awesome. Each unit needs to have its own unique ID when you create the train. If you need further help with this let me know.

* I like having the engine sounds and horn on both the B and A for the great rumble and echo effect. They stay in sync pretty well, the only thing that doesn't is the bell, but I actually like that too  

Wow that sounds much better than my solution! The Only hitch might be that I'm running them as engine one so I don't run into the dreaded forgetting ID issue. But what I will do is just turn the crew talk switch off on the B unit leaving me with engine sounds and Horn on both A and B. Great idea!

 

  Getting into larger car and home systems, actual passive radiators are a bit more common, but still rare for the most part. 

  

Maybe rare to 3R, but you should research Tang Band speaker modules. Many of us 2R O scalers use them. They are compact modules with an active driver and passive radiator built in. Some of them produce usable frequency response below 60Hz. Even their smallest model that I have used in HO and S will reach down to 100Hz. 

JamesRx posted:

Just received the B unit and put it on the track....wow!  I think at full volume the sounds might even approach the decibel level of an actual train! LOL!

Thanks again, Alex.  I had no intention of getting the B unit until I saw your great videos. 

Looks like I was overthinking the whole duplicate sound issue. All I did was  enable all sounds on the B unit and turn the master volume switch on the lead A unit all the way down. That got rid of any out of sync duplication of sounds and let all the sounds go through the superior system of the B unit.

Believe it or not, in the attached video I have the sound turned all the way down so as not to wake the neighbors!

Hi James 

glad it all worked out!! 

Enjoy, Alex

trainroomgary posted:

Hi Alex: Very cool demonstration.....

The Lionel Catalog shows that this locomotive will work with:

Bluetooth® Control - Operate with Universal Remote or LionChief® App
LEGACY® and Bluetooth® control in both locomotives.

I do not have Legacy on my layout. Do you have a way to test this Super Base with the Lionel Universal Remote & Lionel Bluetooth App. & show this test with one of your videos?

Take care: Gary

Hi Gary 

unfortunately I do not have a  universal remote and at the moment both A and B units are not put back together yet. Maybe someone else can chime in and perform this test. 

Thanks, Alex 

Love the start-up sounds on the B unit....

So has anyone run theirs via the Bluetooth?

Very informative. The super bass units are more capable then I believed. Thanks everyone for doing this.

Thanks so much for posting all the videos and details. I had considered picking up a Super Base unit.

Of interest I had picked up the various LionChief FT B units that were sold with no sound; clearance at $99 each. I was using them at past trains shows with LionChief controllers on the fence for the kids to control trains. The B units were each pushing a Chuggington or Thomas and friends kids trains. So no sound but they could just control speed. I also have an ABA FT Santa Fe set with the Sound in the one A unit. I decided to take apart a B unit and look at the LionChief board! It has the same board as the A unit!!!  so for the FT B WP unit I plugged into the Speaker output ran a jumper wire to an old 2 Rail Atlas 1970's F9 that I repainted to a matching WP paint color. I gutted the motor and gears and installed a speaker into one end of a cardboard shipping tube as long as would fit, and sealed the other end mostly.  The sound is far louder and deeper more bass then the SF Factory A unit! 

I had also painted up a SP E8 B unit to match an A unit Weaver body with Williams power. I installed a LionChief PC board with Amrtak FT sounds was cheap to buy to control this. I was able to install a larger cardboard tube in the B unit and it has even deeper bass sounds. Pics; https://ogrforum.com/...s-to-expand-my-fleet

No doubt the Super Base units have been specifically designed with sound engineering to get the great sounds. With I would guess the circuit boards and baffles and sound enclosures to work best. So if you are able to add one to a train great!  But if you have other engines and are able to move the engine speaker and create a larger speaker enclosure in a following dummy engine or box car etc. perhaps you can much improve the sounds and bass on your train. 

Jonnyspeed mentioned the Tang Band speaker systems for 2 rail trains do you have any examples videos of the sound? or  suggested references on line? 

Incidentally back in the 1990's at a Great American Train show I had a small O scale display at one end of a large hall. I think it was Soundtrax was set up at the other of the hall occasionally to show their great train sounds and bass they would really crank up the sound for a few seconds showing off their diesel sounds it was really loud all over the huge hall. I had taken a Weaver sound system from that era engine diesel sounds and horn bell. I had taken this sound driver out of the O gauge engine and mounted it to run 2 small speaker boxes I had built with I think it was 5 inch speakers from Radio Shack. I had it with a  horn button on the table for kids to make sounds and it was loud enough to hear at a large show.  When Soundtrax cranked their sounds I was reply; able to crank up my small Weaver sound system and it was fairly loud and echoed back across the hall almost as loud! 

In the 1990's the original Lionel Sound system for a Royal Hudson had been recorded from the real Royal Hudson. I took the sound unit and mounted the speaker into a 3 foot long cardboard mailing tube. I have used this for over 20 years at train shows where the kids can blow the whistle and the sound is loud great at loud train shows; deep bass sound with the volume turned down. At the Polar Express event each year we mount the speaker tube over the engineers seat in the cab of the real Royal Hudson when the kids climb up and pull the whistle cord the attendant pushes the Lionel whistle button and the kids think they are blowing a real whistle train whistle the sound is loud and has great bass. 

From my experience any sound system can be significantly improved if you can create a good speaker enclosure as Lionel has done with the Super Bass engines. (similar to your home stereo speaker enclosures!  

A decent speaker and a proper baffle are major steps in improving the sound from any sound system, that certainly applies to model trains as well.

Wow, after listening to the sounds of a Super Bass B unit,  I wish I had purchased one.  Does anyone know where or who has a UP Alco PB Super Bass unit??