Acela Pantograph issues

My Acela was running fine until this morning.  When I started it up, it went through the normal pantograph dance except one pantograph no longer moves.  The motor makes no sound.  I've opened up the non-powered unit and could visibly see one motor move.  I checked the wiring and nothing seems out of the ordinary to my eyes.  what I would like to do to isolate the issue is disconnect the dead motor from the PCB and put power to it directly. If it comes to life then I guess the Board is the issue.  However, I'm uncertain as to the DC voltage I should apply. I don't want to fry it but also want to be sure I put enough to it.  I was thinking 9 volts as I read that in some other thread.  Oh, one other question to anyone (ALEXM are you there? :-) ) that's removed the motor assembly, which and how many screws should be removed. I don't want to remove one and have some spring pop out and disappear to that place where socks in the dryer go.  Thanks.  

per Alex M's post

https://ogrforum.com/...-at-the-lionel-acela

Hi john 

yes there is , use DC power 3 to 4 volts. Unplug the wires from the motor , and put power to the two pins on the motor and it will move up or down.

page 2 part way down

Thanks!

I have not had your exact problem with mine but at one stage the pantographs simply stopped functioning and I think only a high voltage jolt from the transformer revived them. This happened totally by accident and is not my recommended repair/testing method! In any case they worked again as Marty Fitz has described and the problem has not recurred. BTW, it follows that the answers to your original questions 2 and 3 are “no” as that is not the right operating sequence. I think that the right one is described in the owner’s manual but I don’t have it on hand to check.

However, I am aware that the motor units for each of the pantographs are problematic and when I looked into sourcing spares in case any one needed to be replaced, I found that Lionel had issued a new version, I think revision B, in place of the original equipment. I think that this has some mechanical design changes. But don’t take my word for it - see what Lionel says although I suspect that if they are able/willing to effect repairs you’ll have to ship the engines in. One the other hand, there was a recent thread in which Alex M. doing repairs on the Acela and frankly he’s more reliable about repairs than Lionel itself.

Thanks for the help.  I just discovered one of my 9v batteries is now a 4v battery so I'm going to put 4v to the motor I've unplugged from the PCB.  In any case I'll check the Lionel parts list and take from there.  Seems to me it's either the motor, the PCB or those little switches inside the motor shell that you can see working in AlexM's great video above.

If you're 9V battery is reading 4V, it's dead!  It likely won't have enough oomph to move the motor, even if it's good.  Use 4-5 VDC to test, but you need a source that can supply enough current.  It shouldn't be more than around 100ma max.

Well, oomph is important!    So, a 6 VDC, 500ma wall wart would be too muchoomph?

Thanks John. 

Update: I removed the pantograph motor that was not responding.  I then put 9v DC to the motor and it started right up.  I then connected the powered unit and non powered unit on my layout, powered the track and once I aligned the tether, all the motors responded appropriately.  I'm thinking some advice GunrunnerJohn gave me about motors in smoke units...sometimes they hit a dead spot and once you manually nudge them, they start working again. That's what I'm thinking here.  Of course, I sent one of those little screws that hold the motor to the shell into the next dimension, at least I hope so and it's not waiting to fall out of 'somewhere' on the 4th pass around the loop and short everything out...   I'm going to look for a replacement screw....

Very good news that normal service is restored!

I suppose one other cause might be the lubrication on the gears/screws that the motor runs the pantographs on. Over time the original lubrication might have coagulated (for want of a better word). From the Alex M. video linked above, they look similar to the Acela door mechanisms, which are a real bore to try to maintain. As my set had lived in a box for some years, I put light oil on the door gears to get them running. This was no easy task; I have never had the nerve to take one of the cars apart although I have had both engines open.

Hancok2, thanks for the advice.  I did open the motor up and the grease on the gears was good.  However, after buttoning up the shell, I started the engines up and all was well.  I put it through a few startup, shutdown, and direction reversals and all was well.  A few loops around the layout and...yep, the pantograph motor stopped working again.  Ahem....the thought of taking the pantographs off and putting them on again makes me  nauseous....  I've decided to just replace the motor assembly and pantograph board.  Lionel should be shipping the parts soon.  I can't wait to get them....  I love this hobby, I really do....I keep reminding myself.  

Morning Ed:

Before you do anything else try this.

Reboot the lead engine. Prog/Run switch to Prog.

Eng # (set) Eng # Aux1 7 6 Return switch to Run

The best times i had with my Acela was the day I bought it and the day I sold it. I will never own another one. 

Dave

choochoopaul posted:

Morning Ed:

Before you do anything else try this.

Reboot the lead engine. Prog/Run switch to Prog.

Eng # (set) Eng # Aux1 7 6 Return switch to Run

 

OK, will do. Thanks. 

I'll be interested to know if the above works.  I seem to remember trying the reset when mine acted up.

Choochoopaul, unfortunately, no joy. Thanks. I ordered a new pantograph PCB and motor unit.  Hopefully that’ll do it. Although I am now hearing low level static in the non powered unit. Sheesh. I love this hobby!

david1 posted:

The best times i had with my Acela was the day I bought it and the day I sold it. I will never own another one. 

Dave

Yeah, it's a real enthusiasm-killer, this model. I knew it had issues when I got one but then some people reported, and showed videos of, sets running as they were meant to. 

In my experience most of the problems (but not all) were in the IR signal transmission. Going over to wired connections sounds like a good idea. 

I have worked on several of these units and found that the motors need to be cleaned . I used spray contact cleaner on the armatures and brushes. They build up crud on the brush wells.  Try it, it works for me. There is no adjustment on  the limit switches and the  motors operate on low voltage.

I’ll try it. Although the grief in getting the pantographs back in is annoying. 

Hancock52 posted:

david1 posted:

The best times i had with my Acela was the day I bought it and the day I sold it. I will never own another one. 

Dave

Yeah, it's a real enthusiasm-killer, this model. I knew it had issues when I got one but then some people reported, and showed videos of, sets running as they were meant to. 

In my experience most of the problems (but not all) were in the IR signal transmission. Going over to wired connections sounds like a good idea. 

Yes the IR is hinkie at times.  I’ve had good luck with all but one car. The signal gets through because the powered and non powered talk to each other and operate OK. But one car’s ground lights start blinking almost immediately and will go out at reset but then bingo, start blinking. Good news is doors work so I ignore it. 

Hancock52 posted:

I'll be interested to know if the above works.  I seem to remember trying the reset when mine acted up.

No, it didn’t work. :-(

Success!  The new pantograph PCB (Rev.B) arrived today and after installing it, the pantographs now work as they should.  Fankly, hte most difficult pat of assembly is re-seating the pantographs.  I had the darndest time getting that control arm dimple back into place. I struggled with it and finally decided to loosen the control arm pin screws so one was probably no more than one turn to coming out.  Only then would those dudes seat properly.  By accident, when I removed the pantographs I loosened one of the control arm pins too far and it, the little spring and the pin itself fell out. Fortunately i found everything readily and I learned that spring doesn't fly out...it merely spilled out along with the rod.  

I do have a question for the experts here.  Should I have bought a second pantograph control board?  I'm thinking I should just in case the pantograph PCB in the powered unit fails some time in the future and Lionel runs out of them?  Thanks again to all for the good advice.

I'm most definitely not an expert but I do have an opinion/experience on this very question. When I sourced my spare boards,  I got a pair for exactly the reason you mention. With such frequent and indeed strange issues concerning the Acela, I decided to hedge my bets over these particular parts.

I have a feeling (based on some research I did six years back) that Lionel might have got in a quantity of the Revision B boards because of the frequent issues over pantograph operation with the original PCBs. Indeed I just looked at my replacement parts receipt (from 2012) and I see that I got two PCBs and two motor and gearbox assemblies.  I think that there was some change in the latter as well as the PCB but after this length of time I can't recall what it was.

Anyway I'd go for the extra one. I'm sure Lionel will be grateful for the extra sale.

Thanks. I will.