Adding MTH to the layout

Easy answers to your questions.

#1 Unlike Lionel Bluetooth, no you cannot run an engine from any MTH app without some sort of TIU (Track Interface Unit). The DCS system is a digital signal that is on the power of the track into the engine. That's why a TIU or other DCS capable device is physically connected to the track and often between the power source and the track. Also, Bluetooth is not the end all be all solution for train control and has it's own limitations and problems. Just saying, there is no shortcut here. All that said, an MTH engine is still conventional compatible meaning traditional voltage control of the track and DC offsets for Bell and Whistle/Horn can activate even some of the advanced functioned via bell and whistle sequences. Again, no MTH engine was made with direct app control without some form of a track interface unit.

#2 About track signal, again this is a higher frequency digital signal riding within the AC track power. Any signal is subject to Transmission Line losses. The idea being any high frequency signal where the wire is longer than the wavelength of the signal then sees these advanced rules that define losses. It gets complicated so I don't want to overload you with all the details, but by not making a complete circle loop, the idea is that this signal looping in both directions around the track doesn't interfere with itself as the 2 waves meet. I am not the best advocate for blocks. Our local club table is about 75' by 8' and was bus wired long before DCS was added. My home table is only 10' x 14' and again, bus wired, no blocks. We have perfect 10s all the way around all 4 loops. As far as doing blocks, only insulate the center rail is sufficient. In general, for TMCC and other reasons, you ideally want all of your outside rails common between block sections and everything else if we are honest.

Why this is different from Lionel TMCC and Legacy radio signal is just that, Lionel uses a radio frequency transmitted at a relatively low 455KHz that uses the outside rails as one side of the antenna and the house or other local AC wiring in the building ground as the other half of the transmitting antenna. Each engine or device that is TMCC then must have a matching antenna and be close enough to the track to pick up this radio signal.

@Vernon Barry posted:

Why this is different from Lionel TMCC and Legacy radio signal is just that, Lionel uses a radio frequency transmitted at a relatively low 455KHz that uses the outside rails as one side of the antenna and the house or other local AC wiring in the building ground as the other half of the transmitting antenna. Each engine or device that is TMCC then must have a matching antenna and be close enough to the track to pick up this radio signal.

One correction.  The TMCC antenna does NOT pickup a signal from the track.  The antenna actually receives it's signal from the "earth ground" which is the 3rd wire of the outlet, the round ground pin.  This allows the building ground wiring to radiate the TMCC signal.  The track connection to the command base is basically the other side of the signal.

Another key point is there are multiple track interface DCS products. Think of them as tiers within DCS features.

Example, the lowest tier is the infrared remote based DCS Remote Commander Infrared 50-1033. This only controls one engine at a time with a default address.

Next is the DCS Wifi Explorer 50-1035 This is kind of a limited one channel TIU and Wifi unit. It has more features and functions than the 50-1033, but is limited to storing 3 engines, and you don't get to see all the buttons or tabs in the app.

Then you have the current and no longer manufactured TIU and Wifi Module that would give you wireless and remote control options with a full blown 4 channel TIU.

Next, is the upcoming Wireless integrated TIU. MTH 50-1039 WTIU WiFi/TIU

My point is, I do like MTH trains and have well over 100 engines. I think they represent a value and detail level that is worth your interest. I know there is concern that the limited and high cost of current TIUs and DCS controls is a problem, however, hopefully as we get back into the swing of things, that can ease. Again, MTH engines can be operated conventionally or you can find one of the lower tiered DCS control systems and use that until the new TIUs ship. I know that may not be the ideal answer but again, I don't think investing in MTH trains is some form of dead end or not supported.

@Vernon Barry. Thank you for the replies.   That was a ton of extremely helpful information.

This will have to be a consideration for the future, permanent layout. Don’t know that I want to start investing more money in another operating system just yet. If I was able to set a new locomotive on the track and fire up an app, that would’ve been awesome. But, I think it’s a little more than what I want to do at the moment.

The information about the signal and frequencies was great.  Really helps to understand the science behind the hobby.

on that note @gunrunnerjohn I’ve read explanations about the TMCC signal a number of times but the way you phrased it really made it click. Thank you for that.

My 15x19 feet L-shaped layout is wired for BOTH control systems: Lionel's TMCC and MTH's DCS, but not both simultaneously. I select the system I want to use during an operating session through a "knife switch" - simple, but it works for me. I installed the cheapest form of DCS (a DCS Remote Commander Infrared 50-1033). Adequate and affordable, although not a "complete package" of all available DCS features.  Because I have only two MTH locos, I didn't want to buy the pricey MTH top of the line system just for them. Further, the basic commands of the 50-1033 are sufficient for me (and my two great-grandsons).

Of course, others may require/expect the full array of DCS features; The full-blown DCS system with a TIU is for them.

Carry on, valiantly ...

Mike M.    LCCA 12394

@VJandP posted:

@Vernon Barry. Thank you for the replies.   That was a ton of extremely helpful information.

This will have to be a consideration for the future, permanent layout. Don’t know that I want to start investing more money in another operating system just yet. If I was able to set a new locomotive on the track and fire up an app, that would’ve been awesome. But, I think it’s a little more than what I want to do at the moment.

The information about the signal and frequencies was great.  Really helps to understand the science behind the hobby.

on that note @gunrunnerjohn I’ve read explanations about the TMCC signal a number of times but the way you phrased it really made it click. Thank you for that.

Not sure what kind of transformer you have or if you're aware of it, but virtually all MTH locomotives can be operated via conventional control so, if you have a "throttle" style transformer and see an MTH engine you want, you can buy it and run it conventionally with some, but not all, of the MTH command features and be able to enjoy the locomotive while you wait until you have the funds or inclination to go with a full system.

Something that seldom gets mentioned when questions like this are raised is; why not convert every thing to a single operating system? I have a small - compared to what most of you claim to have - railroad with only 15 or so locos. Early on decided I wanted only one operating system and was about to go to DCC. Then TMCC appeared on the scene, and rather than waiting another two years for DCS I opted for TMCC. With the products from now long gone Digital Dynamics and TAS and ultimately ERR all of my locos  have TMCC Cruise and Railsounds. But ironically, none of them are Lionel anymore, but are either Weaver, K-Line, MTH, or Williams. The total cost was not overwhelming as I was able to either buy the engines w/o operating systems or sell the components they had come with to defray the cost of the ERR conversions. I'm not saying this approach is for everyone but is just another way to approach the problem.

Now to a pet peeve or mild rant. Please toy trains are not an "investment" in the dollar and cents context that is usually used on this forum. They are merely a purchase of non-essential things made with (hopefully) discretionary income.

@Vernon Barry posted:

Another key point is there are multiple track interface DCS products. Think of them as tiers within DCS features.

Example, the lowest tier is the infrared remote based DCS Remote Commander Infrared 50-1033. This only controls one engine at a time with a default address.

Next is the DCS Wifi Explorer 50-1035 This is kind of a limited one channel TIU and Wifi unit. It has more features and functions than the 50-1033, but is limited to storing 3 engines, and you don't get to see all the buttons or tabs in the app.

Then you have the current and no longer manufactured TIU and Wifi Module that would give you wireless and remote control options with a full blown 4 channel TIU.

Next, is the upcoming Wireless integrated TIU. MTH 50-1039 WTIU WiFi/TIU

My point is, I do like MTH trains and have well over 100 engines. I think they represent a value and detail level that is worth your interest. I know there is concern that the limited and high cost of current TIUs and DCS controls is a problem, however, hopefully as we get back into the swing of things, that can ease. Again, MTH engines can be operated conventionally or you can find one of the lower tiered DCS control systems and use that until the new TIUs ship. I know that may not be the ideal answer but again, I don't think investing in MTH trains is some form of dead end or not supported.

Vernon: Is DCS a proprietary product of MTH? If so, do you think this product will survive the breakup of MTH? What 3R track offerings (including switches, accessories) work best with DCS? Does it matter?

@VJandP posted:

@Vernon Barry. Thank you for the replies.   That was a ton of extremely helpful information.

This will have to be a consideration for the future, permanent layout. Don’t know that I want to start investing more money in another operating system just yet. If I was able to set a new locomotive on the track and fire up an app, that would’ve been awesome. But, I think it’s a little more than what I want to do at the moment.

The information about the signal and frequencies was great.  Really helps to understand the science behind the hobby.

on that note @gunrunnerjohn I’ve read explanations about the TMCC signal a number of times but the way you phrased it really made it click. Thank you for that.

Don't forget your original question -  Although you cannot do it with MTH.  Any Lionel modern engine that has Bluetooth, will allow you to simply use the engine and the App and nothing else, no hardware needed.  So Lionel does have that one advantage.  And even though it may not have every Legacy feature in the app , it has all the important ones (speed, bell, whistle, crewtalk, direction, couplers, volume, etc.)  The Lionchief Plus 2.0 line has some nice stuff as fairly reasonable prices (well reasonable for Lionel, lets put it that way, ha-ha).

@Sean's Train Depot posted:

Don't forget your original question -  Although you cannot do it with MTH.  Any Lionel modern engine that has Bluetooth, will allow you to simply use the engine and the App and nothing else, no hardware needed.  So Lionel does have that one advantage.  And even though it may not have every Legacy feature in the app , it has all the important ones (speed, bell, whistle, crewtalk, direction, couplers, volume, etc.)  The Lionchief Plus 2.0 line has some nice stuff as fairly reasonable prices (well reasonable for Lionel, lets put it that way, ha-ha).

@Sean’s Train Depot     Thanks for the suggestion.   I do have a CAB1L and have used the BT app with Lionel engines.   I actually have a couple of older iPhones that I loaded the app on.  I set up a control panel of sorts with each engine having its own phone.   Great for blowing the horn on 4 engines at a time. 😝 I have plenty of options for adding Lionel engines.

I was asking about MTH because I don’t have any MTH locomotives.  I was wondering if there was an “easy” way to get started. But overall, it sounds like it will be more money than I want to spend right now.   Probably not a bad thing because I could see myself bleeding money to start collecting MTH locomotive haha …

@Richie C.  Thanks for the suggestion about conventional control. I do have a ZW-L. I suppose if I see something I really, really want I could go that route.

@modeltrainsparts posted:

Now to a pet peeve or mild rant. Please toy trains are not an "investment". They are merely a purchase of non-essential things made with (hopefully) discretionary income.

I can agree in one aspect, but I have to disagree strongly in many, many, many ways.

Toy trains are an investment, and a good one at that (as with most hobbies), in providing demonstrated outcomes such as these, presented in no particular order of importance:

1. Relaxation; to lower blood pressure and improve health
2. Improvement and maintenance of hand-eye coordination
3. Increase in patience, and managing the lack thereof beforehand
4. Building and reinforcing common sense
5. Invention and related innovation
6. Developing photography skills
7. Practicing improvement in energy efficiency
8. An outlet for creativity
9. Developing and maintaining logical thinking and troubleshooting skills
10. Improved mechanical skills
11. Instituting and fostering teamwork
12. Continued learning of history
13. Keeping the mind busy in order to forestall dementia
14. Entertainment
15. Improved electrical and wiring skills
16. Achieving diversity goals
17. Helping to enjoy retirement
18. Encouraging minimization of waste
19. Establishing and improving electronics skills
20. Practicing sustainability
21. Setting a foundation for a small business
22. Helping teach S.T.E.M. to the little ones
23. Teaching, employing and fostering Yankee Ingenuity
24. Establishment of camaraderie and friendship in a common interest
25. Supporting small local businesses (although this is fading)
26. Finding things that unite rather than divide
27. Improved software skills
28. Removing artificial barriers between people
29. Creative recycling of used materials
30. Providing interesting topics, thoughts and ideas for spirited and/or educational discussion (as on this forum)
31. Developing carpentry skills
32. Encouraging thrift
33. Developing metalworking skills
34. Creating opportunities for teaching, coaching and mentoring the next generation
35. Learning to K.I.S.S.
36. Bringing together young and old
37. Preparing for the future by learning from the past

                and many, many more ...

There's only one thing I've purposely left off this list, and it is "Getting rich".  On this we can agree.

Mike

@dscrockett posted:

Vernon: Is DCS a proprietary product of MTH? If so, do you think this product will survive the breakup of MTH? What 3R track offerings (including switches, accessories) work best with DCS? Does it matter?

Yes, DCS is still owned by MTH as a division. It already survived the breakup. They are licensing that technology to Atlas and potentially others. They have posted that they are alive and kicking and have plans for future products. I was trying to find the recent link to a discussion where a representative from MTH DCS gave us a detailed update describing the development projects. Anybody help remember that discussion or link? It was just a few posts within a DCS related topic. Example was a new Z4000 transformer with the remote control receiver function built in or WIFI?

Any track works. MTH has the AIU (accessory Interface Unit) a bank of relays that can be assigned to control accessories and switches. So in some way agnostic, no it does not matter.

Also, I should point out this important update So-you-thought-mth-went-out-of-business

and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ct--Q9BNWvs

Also, finally found that discussion and link on new developments.

https://ogrforum.com/...2#158674373596644632

@MTH RD posted:

And, a lot of misinformation as well.  Rumors of our death have been greatly exaggerated. 

Hi everyone.  MTH R&D here.  Jon Grasson, formerly with MTH, who posted earlier in this thread told me about this discussion.  I've been a little busy but, wanted to take this opportunity to reply to the OP and maybe clear up some things.

MTH R&D is alive and well in MI.  We're a little thinner on staffing given it's only a couple of us now.  I'm learning to really appreciate all the support we’ve had over all of these years.  So, please be patient as things are moving a little slower these days.  In addition, we had to wind down the previous version of MTH and that transition distracted some of us for a while.  Then there is this little thing called Covid.

In direct response to the OP regarding the app(s), they were recently fully updated for compatibility with current versions of both iOS and Android.  This review and update process was our first step in moving forward.  Stated plainly, we brought the apps up to speed with current mobile operating systems.  We will be releasing them within the next month or so.  We are in the testing and debugging phase at this point.

Looking forward, we, Mike Wolf and I, are indeed going forward with continued development and production of digital model train controls and supporting products.  As you are all likely aware, we've announced the WTIU or, Wi-Fi TIU.  This is a complete hardware redesign of the original TIU with integrated Wi-Fi.   

This redesign was necessary to bring the hardware up to date.  Many components were at or reaching obsolescence.  The hardware redesign is complete and we are testing and working on firmware.  With the firmware comes many new features.  Not the least of which are emulation of the Luci web interface for Wi-Fi configuration (custom network name, password, etc.) and firmware updates to the WTIU and WIU.  Also, you’ll be able to stream audio directly from whatever music service you have directly to the engines.  Further, file loading to the engines directly from our website.  So, updating sound files or engine firmware can be done directly from the app.

Other more practical features include variable DC track power, DCC pass through (think DCS Commander), Device Sync so all devices reflect the current state of operation, and a whole lot more.  But, first things first.  We want to get the new hardware and updated app that supports the new WTIU out first.

As you may have heard, we’re in a supply chain crisis.  Although, there are those in government that deny this, I can attest.  We are having difficulty getting parts to build engine boards.  Some components of the new WTIU are not available until late this fall.  We could have delivered this new product sooner but, it’s tough to make bread without flour.  We are doing everything we can to help ourselves but, there are a few small companies like Apple, Samsung, GM, Ford, etc., that seem to get priority over us.  The nerve.

In terms of other development, we have, at last count, about 18 new product ideas in the queue.  It seems obvious to add voice control.  This is a relatively simple one from where we are so, book it Danno.  A few that are not quite as easy are a new WZ4K.  Yes, you read that right, a Wi-Fi Z4K. How about an updated Wi-Fi DCS remote for those of you that prefer the dedicated tactile hand-held?  It will be compatible with the existing WIU, the new WTIU, and the WZ4K (way down the line).  There are more but, that’s enough for now.  Of course, these are substantial development efforts and are down the road a spell but, these are the kinds of things that are in the hopper.

There are a lot of other points in the thread that I could address but, alas, every minute I spend here is a minute I’m not spending getting these products developed and built.  So, please keep that in mind when you experience the deafening silence to new questions or posts.  I would really like to be readily available but, I just cannot be so, forgive me.  But, the fact is, we’re here and investing dollars.  On that note, I will respond to one poster who mused that MTH hasn’t invested enough in DCS and technology.  I think I can say with certainty that MTH has invested more in technology over the past 20 years than any other model train manufacturer.  I just think there is a general underestimation of what it takes to get this stuff done.  Our MIT engineers are expensive and in high demand.

Again, please be patient with us.  We’ll try to provide updates a little more often.

@modeltrainsparts posted:

Something that seldom gets mentioned when questions like this are raised is; why not convert every thing to a single operating system? I have a small - compared to what most of you claim to have - railroad with only 15 or so locos. Early on decided I wanted only one operating system and was about to go to DCC. Then TMCC appeared on the scene, and rather than waiting another two years for DCS I opted for TMCC. With the products from now long gone Digital Dynamics and TAS and ultimately ERR all of my locos  have TMCC Cruise and Railsounds. But ironically, none of them are Lionel anymore, but are either Weaver, K-Line, MTH, or Williams. The total cost was not overwhelming as I was able to either buy the engines w/o operating systems or sell the components they had come with to defray the cost of the ERR conversions. I'm not saying this approach is for everyone but is just another way to approach the problem.

Now to a pet peeve or mild rant. Please toy trains are not an "investment". They are merely a purchase of non-essential things made with (hopefully) discretionary income.

I think the main reason people have multiple operating systems is that a particular model or road name may not be available from the manufacturer of the system of your choice and, if you want to have and run it, you need to have that OS.

The two main systems, TMCC/Legacy and DCS, are compatible with each other on the same layout and, IMHO, buying an additional system is less complicated and less expensive than converting everything to one system.