AF #760 crossing flasher

I'm confused by your two statements:

You have a 3-rail layout, and you state that the Dallee directions only show it for a 3-rail system. I don't see the conflict. The Dallee board will, I assume, take an input and provide two alternating outputs.

Have you traced the wiring to determine if the lamps are in parallel? Is there a flasher unit inside the signal? Have you used a meter to see how it's wired?

If I'm not mistaken, the two lamps are wired in parallel, and there is no flasher inside. To get them to flash alternately, you would need to rewire the lamps and bring out a third lead. There are two binding posts on the base, and any documentation I have read, doing a quick Google search, (yielding 137,000 hits for this item) does not actually describe the operation in detail.  You could use the two existing binding posts for the two lamps, and solder a return lead to the base, or you could drill and add a third binding post. Your choice.

Due to the nature of the construction of the 760, making it to alternate lights is impractical. Would take massive amounts of rework. You can use a Lionel 1045 contactor to flash the 2 lamps simultaneously as AF did.

Arthur P. Bloom posted:

I'm confused by your two statements:

You have a 3-rail layout, and you state that the Dallee circuit only shows it for a 3-rail system. I don't see the conflict. 

If I'm not mistaken, the two lamps are wired in parallel. To get them to flash alternately, you would need to rewire the lamps and bring out a third lead. There are two binding posts on the base, and any documentation I have read, doing a quick Google search, (yielding 137,000 hits for this item) does not actually describe the operation in detail.

Have you traced the wiring to determine if the lamps are in parallel? Is there a flasher unit inside the signal? You can bring out the lamp wires individually, power them from a circuit board that provides alternating pulses (There are many available or you could build your own) and trigger the circuit board with an insulated rail.

There is no flasher unit in the base.  A couple of years ago I rewired the bulbs to be insulated from each other by following how the #154 appeared to be wired.  So, I have a wire for each bulb and a ground/common soldered to the base (underneath).  Lights work individually when simply tested.  Also, I made a posting mistake re the flasher board:  it is a Depotronics "multiflasher jr" made in 1996.  My plan is to do a temperary hook up test today.  This is for my Christmas layout.  The test will be cumbersome to say the least because the transformer is on the opposite side of the layout from where the # 760 will be placed.  Hope this clears up things a bit.  My first attempt was to remove the base from a #154 so it would fit on the base of a #45 and to add a second bulb holder on the back to provide bi-directional signaling.  After two days of fiddling I discovered that I was not going to succeed, so in the trash it went.  I will not  try that again.  I do not want to place a scale flasher on the #45.  The 10ft man would a bit large next to a scale flasher.

Chuck Sartor posted:

Due to the nature of the construction of the 760, making it to alternate lights is impractical. Would take massive amounts of rework. You can use a Lionel 1045 contactor to flash the 2 lamps simultaneously as AF did.

I am using Fastrack.  Don't think the 1045 will work with it. I want to use my existing 30" isolated outside rail track section to operate the # 760 flasher.  See my previous post re retiring the 760.  If I did it right it should work like the 154.  Of course, that is a big IF.

Don't they make short sections of that  track??  Such as 1 1/2" long, you could use a couple of them to make the lites work...

Marty

He has already rewired the signal for independent lamps, so I don't see that it would be "impractical" and require "massive" amounts of work. It it just a 6" long piece of wire.

So the answer is: just install it as you would a 154. Use the Dallee circuit (or any other equivalent, such as the ones for a few bucks on Ebay) to provide the alternating outputs for the two lamps. trigger it with an insulated rail section, or an IR device, or...

I installed as if it was a 154.  Just finished the track test - no go.  Lights do not come on at all.  Checked and rechecked the wiring hook up diagram for the flasher board.  The Depotronics board looks in new condition as it has never been used, but I guess it is possible it is defective.  I have a second  one I can try.  I took them out of the original package today.   Could years of no use deteriorate components?  No signs of corrosion.

I will assume you have tried it bare naked on bench without the signal, ie just two bulbs/LEDs hooked to board outputs with correct input voltage?  If no go, insert a meter to read board current draw, If next to zero reading then probably board is defective.  If high current with no load then might be a bad partially shorted component(s).

Just some ideas.

Do you have a meter? Using the continuity scale (ohms) test between the common terminal and each of the two lamp terminals. You should get continuity. Test the lamps out of their sockets with a couple of test leads. Do they light up?

Power the circuit board, as instructed in the paperwork.  Put the meter on AC or DC depending upon what the board provides, and check for power at the outputs. 

Arthur P. Bloom posted:

Do you have a meter? Using the continuity scale (ohms) test between the common terminal and each of the two lamp terminals. You should get continuity. Test the lamps out of their sockets with a couple of test leads. Do they light up?

Power the circuit board, as instructed in the paperwork.  Put the meter on AC or DC depending upon what the board provides, and check for power at the outputs. 

 

I tested the bulbs before screwing into the unit - they worked.  Also, they work when tested with the bulbs in place.  Got continuity per your test suggestion.  I just finished hooking up the other flasher board and got no change, thus, I would not think it likely that both boards are defective.  Have enclosed pic of board and hook up diagram.  Note that only 1-6 spade connections are used for the 154.  I think this board is all AC, as have not seen the word DC anywhere.  You can see a bulb on the board; I assume that would only light when the flasher is operating, no?  I am not sure just how to meter the board's outputs - where to place the probes.

I assume this the same board(s) from this 3 year old thread where you confirmed the fuse is functional?

https://ogrforum.com/t...79#23956019197818879

I can't tell from the photo exactly how the output circuit is configured which makes it difficult to know what to measure.  But, if you have steady hands and have a meter that can measure DC voltage, you can try the following:

- Apply AC power to spades 1 (AC com) and 2 (AC in)

- Connect spade 3 (Insulated Rail In) to spade 1 as if triggering the module

- Measure the DC voltages as indicated.  The black meter lead touches what looks like a metal tab on the component shown (this is a voltage regulator).  The red lead touches the single specified pin on the IC chip...again you need steady-hands.

The steady voltage SHOULD be something like 5V, 9V, 12V, or whatever.  I don't know exactly which but you might be able to read the lettering on the voltage regulator - something like 7805, 7809, 7812, etc..

The toggling voltage should make the meter reading bounce around at whatever the flashing rate should be.

Stan, thanks for the suggestions, but I'm afraid my 74 yr old hands and fingers will most likely cause me to fry the board.  Given that I have two identical boards I think it reasonable to assume both are not defective.  To make sure my #760 AF flasher was correctly modified as posted earlier, I bought a post-war Lionel # 154 flasher.  Bulbs tested in their sockets and worked.  But as before, no go.  I have a suspicion that the problem lies not with the board, but somewhere close by.  FWIW, here is some background not posted earlier: 1) I am using a small set size transformer to power the board; 2) the insulated track section has a # 45 Gate Man hooked up - it works; 3) the flasher bulbs are AC ready LEDs.

BILL HUDSON posted:

; 3) the flasher bulbs are AC ready LEDs.

These replacement bulbs are just an LED with a diode in series with one LED lead, to block reverse AC voltage from damaging the LED element.  There fore, I speculate that the flasher board probably outputs DC voltage but its polarity is such that the series diode is blocking (reverse biased) that flasher voltage. preventing LED lighting.

I assume you have tried incandescent bulbs in AF signal to see if bulbs light?  If not try any 12-14V bulb in socket.

How about this simple test.  Apply power to spades 1 and 2.  Trigger the board by connecting spade 3 to spade 1.  Does the black relay at the bottom of the photo click on and off as you make-break the connection?  You should be able to hear the click in a modestly quiet room.   I realize you are not using this portion of the board but it would be more information than we have now!

Stan, the black relay DID click.  Changed bulbs from LED to incandescent but still did not work.  By the way, spade positions 5 & 6 are to the bulbs.  Does the bulb sequence matter?  For the # 154 the diagram shows wire #2 connected to spade 5 and #3 to spade 6.  I have been assuming it did not matter, but connected per instructions anyway.  With the # 760 it would be a 50-50 chance of reversing the order.

rrman posted:

BILL HUDSON posted:

; 3) the flasher bulbs are AC ready LEDs.

These replacement bulbs are just an LED with a diode in series with one LED lead, to block reverse AC voltage from damaging the LED element.  There fore, I speculate that the flasher board probably outputs DC voltage but its polarity is such that the series diode is blocking (reverse biased) that flasher voltage. preventing LED lighting.

I assume you have tried incandescent bulbs in AF signal to see if bulbs light?  If not try any 12-14V bulb in socket.

Yes, I did change to incandescent bulbs (and tested them) but, again, they do not flash.

I have a suggestion if you are willing.  Ship both boards and signal to me and I will see whats going on and repair as needed, no charge except postage.  I have equipment, tools and parts to fix it.  I am in eastern Iowa if that matters.

Now you have me intrigued and interested!

Bill, tried sending email but it bounced.

That the relay clicked is a good sign!  That tells me the board is not completely dead.

Here's what I'd do next.

Apply power to board by spade 1 and 2 as before.  Trigger the board on spade 3 as before.  Confirm the relay clicks.

With the board triggered, take a known-good incandescent bulb (NOT the LED bulb) and connect it right at the board (with as little wiring as possible) between spade 4 and 5.  In fact you may even be able to press a bare bulb directly to spads 4 and 5 with no wiring/socket but whatever works for you.  Then attach a known-good incandescent bulb between spade 4 and 6. 

If both cases are dark, then I'd take rrman up on his offer.

rrman posted:

Bill, tried sending email but it bounced.

Don't know why it bounced.  I am receiving post replies from the forum.  Thank you so much for the generous offer.   I ordered a modern era flasher control (circuitron) that I want to try first which, of course, will require the use of the 154 and 760 flashers.  I expected the Postal Service to deliver today, but the package remained at an intermediary stop for 22 hrs.  So, will have to wait until tomorrow.

BILL HUDSON posted:

rrman posted:

Bill, tried sending email but it bounced.

Don't know why it bounced.  I am receiving post replies from the forum.  Thank you so much for the generous offer.   I ordered a modern era flasher control (circuitron) that I want to try first which, of course, will require the use of the 154 and 760 flashers.  I expected the Postal Service to deliver today, but the package remained at an intermediary stop for 22 hrs.  So, will have to wait until tomorrow.

Well I copied and pasted the email in your OGR personal.  Anyway, I would still be curious to examine those boards just to see what failed, if that was agreeable to you.

Once a EE, always an EE!!

BILL HUDSON posted:

rrman posted:

Bill, tried sending email but it bounced.

Don't know why it bounced.  I am receiving post replies from the forum.  Thank you so much for the generous offer.   I ordered a modern era flasher control (circuitron) that I want to try first which, of course, will require the use of the 154 and 760 flashers.  I expected the Postal Service to deliver today, but the package remained at an intermediary stop for 22 hrs.  So, will have to wait until tomorrow.

I see your address is now comcast.  I looked at what was sent, it showed Verizion, slightly different

rrman posted:

BILL HUDSON posted:

rrman posted:

Bill, tried sending email but it bounced.

Don't know why it bounced.  I am receiving post replies from the forum.  Thank you so much for the generous offer.   I ordered a modern era flasher control (circuitron) that I want to try first which, of course, will require the use of the 154 and 760 flashers.  I expected the Postal Service to deliver today, but the package remained at an intermediary stop for 22 hrs.  So, will have to wait until tomorrow.

I see your address is now comcast.  I looked at what was sent, it showed Verizion, slightly different

Apparently, I made the change for logging in to the forum, but forgot to change it in the personal info section.  Postal Service did deliver yesterday but too late (for me��) to hook up for trial.  Hope to do that today after running some errands.  Will still be glad to send you the boards and a crossing flasher for analysis.

Did the bulbs light up when a wire was attached to the terminal post on the flasher???

Marty

Trouble in River City - hooked up the new Circuitron FL-2 flasher board and got exactly the same result as I did with the Depotronic board, that is no sign of life.  I am convinced that the problem is not with the boards, but I just can't figure it out.  According to the Circuitron directions, hooking up using an insulated track section requires DC power source, so bought (from same vendor) a 12 volt DC plug into the wall unit.  The DC power source came without directions.  It has a red and black wire which I assume the red is positive.  The wire going to the non-insulated outside rail is connected to the black wire from the DC power source via a Posi-Tap connector.  Also, done as much continuity checking I can on the spade connectors.  I connected the two wires going to the outside rails temporarily with conductive foil tape.  I have tested the bulbs outside of the #154 unit and when installed.  They work.  FYI, attached is the hook up graphic and a photo of the actual flasher board.  To mention it again, the #45 Gateman is connected to the same insulated track section and it still works.

Maybe you can use a full wave bridge rectifier. to make the DC for the board and then test it...

Marty

BILL HUDSON posted:

Trouble in River City - hooked up the new Circuitron FL-2 flasher board and got exactly the same result as I did with the Depotronic board, that is no sign of life.  I am convinced that the problem is not with the boards, but I just can't figure it out.  According to the Circuitron directions, hooking up using an insulated track section requires DC power source, so bought (from same vendor) a 12 volt DC plug into the wall unit.  The DC power source came without directions.  It has a red and black wire which I assume the red is positive.  The wire going to the non-insulated outside rail is connected to the black wire from the DC power source via a Posi-Tap connector.  Also, done as much continuity checking I can on the spade connectors.  I connected the two wires going to the outside rails temporarily with conductive foil tape.  I have tested the bulbs outside of the #154 unit and when installed.  They work.  FYI, attached is the hook up graphic and a photo of the actual flasher board.  To mention it again, the #45 Gateman is connected to the same insulated track section and it still works.

Bill,

Is the gateman using the SAME gateman insulated track section as the flasher board 'C' trigger terminal???  I am guesing you did not bench try this setup first before incorporating on layout?

If you are using the insulated track to trigger the gateman AND the flasher board simultaneously, you have most likely burned out the Circuitron board.  Reason is that the gateman runs on AC and you are passing the high AC voltage to run the gateman solenoid, but looking at the Circuittron print, the AC will also go into the flasher board 'C'  input contact and burn out the IC chip.  Even though you have a separate DC supply, there is a "sneak path" to the flasher 'C' terminal created via the common insulated rail.  I suspect this maybe why your Deptronic boards may have failed, if they were wired similarly ie gateman and Deptronic spade terminal 3 (ins R) commoned together.

Just a thought. Awaiting your reply.

A simple way to get your 760 Flasher to blink alternately is to rewire it so the wiring is identical to the Lionel 154. Then you can actuate the rewired 760 on your 3 rail layout  with a Lionel contactor, or other way without a fancy board, just like you would with a Lionel 154.

We illustrated how that can be done in Run 290. the the March/April issue of O Gauge Railroading. It is in the Collector's Gallery article that starts on page 73 and carries a description of the AF 760 along with two color pictures of the rewired AF flasher on page 74. I think this would be helpful to you.

You know, it would not hurt if some of our Forum members read the magazine once in a while. You might be surprised at how much information you can pick up that way. Just sayin'.

Ed Boyle Partner, OGR

Yes Ed I would agree, But I think most of us want a more realistic flashing rather than the toy train fast blinky-blink, unless of course we are trying to show how it was done back then.  Back in the day, the double blade contactor was the best you could do without involving some motor driven contacts to flash lamps "slowly".

Of course i read the article and how the 760 was rewired to separate out the bulbs.  But I think we are trying to help a forum member get his project going because he wants more protypcal flashing than the blinky-blink.  I think the electrical challenged appreciate the help of more knowledable OGRers, just like the forum has helped me with scenery and train items and clarification of DCS problems.  Unfortunately, we are not all jack of all trades people, knowing everything about everything. Thats why we faithfully read OGR 

Ed, thanks for the post.  I had rewired the 760 earlier so that each bulb was insulated from each other and each had a separate wire. I did have a 154 to use as a guide.  The 760 "appears" to be wired correctly as each bulb lights individually when tested.  I don't think the contactor plate will work on Fastrack.  I wanted to add a highway flasher to operate along side the gateman for visual interest (action).  The 760 fits nicely on the # 45 base with the original static post removed.  This is my Christmas layout that must be almost completely dissassembled for storage, including track.  The layout is on  4" thick closed cell foam board cut into 3 2.5' sections.  When assembled it is 5.5' X 7.5'.  I am not concerned about scale as nearly everything on the layout is not to scale.  The 45 gateman and a pre-war tinplate station, for example.

RRMAN,  you are the first responder to say that these boards cannot be used on the same insulated track section with another assessory.  Twice in earlier posts I said I had the #45 using the insulated section.  Also, the directions for both the 20yr old Depotronics board and the new Circuitron provide no cautionary statements re other assessory connections.  According to the Depotronics directions the board can power two highway flashers or two highway gates or one of each.  At this point it appears beyond my capability to make this work.  It's time to put this layout away and work with my permanent one.

There is no reason that two accessories cannot be used on the same insulated track section.  As I have advised repeatedly, using DC is the smart choice when wiring signals. Either create a DC bus that can be used all over the layout, or (less advisable) use a small full-wave rectifier at a particular accessory.

The common return method from an insulated track section can be used to trigger a simple item like the gateman, WITHOUT wiring it through a circuit board. There is no reason to do so, and, apparently, a good reason NOT to do so, judging from the admittedly disjointed and meager explanations in this thread. 

A single wire activates the alternating lamp circuit board. Another single wire activates the gateman. Simple. Using DC and one 10 cent diode in each trigger lead will isolate and protect both accessories from inadvertent sneak paths.

There are lots of other ways to create an alternating lamp supply.  A simple automotive flasher unit, driving a relay with one set of transfer contacts, is a mechanical, rather than an electronic, method that will cost less than ten bucks, and fail in about 50 years, if left running continuously.

A motorized interrupter, such as a Western Electric (phone company) 232 KTU is another. I use one to create several different flashing cadences on my layout, all of which are bussed around the system. It has been running for 20 years.

Don't give up and throw in the towel. There are several of us here who walk you through this situation, using the old fashioned way: a telephone call...rather than have you getting all frustrated by reading and trying to interpret well-intentioned but convoluted written advice.  I am not convinced that there is a sneak path, or that there is some other witchcraft going on that is destroying the circuit boards.  This is simple electricity.  And it should work.

RR MAN

Good and thoughtful post. Your discussion trying to help Bill Hudson with this situation is just the kind of thing that makes our Forum so valuable to all of us.

As a toy train guy it never occurred to me that using a board could make the blink rate on the 760 slower and more realistic. Thanks for the insight.

Ed Boyle Partner, O Gauge Railroading

Ed Boyle posted:

RR MAN

Good and thoughtful post. Your discussion trying to help Bill Hudson with this situation is just the kind of thing that makes our Forum so valuable to all of us.

As a toy train guy it never occurred to me that using a board could make the blink rate on the 760 slower and more realistic. Thanks for the insight.

Ed Boyle Partner, O Gauge Railroading

 

 

 

Your welcome.

Instead of DC / diode activation, I overlooked the easier, and more obvious, method: One AC relay, activated by the insulated rail. The relay needs to have DPST contacts. One set of contacts sends AC for the gateman, one set of contacts sends either AC or DC (your choice) for the alternating flasher circuit (regardless of which one you use.)

Arthur P. Bloom posted:

Instead of DC / diode activation, I overlooked the easier, and more obvious, method: One AC relay, activated by the insulated rail. The relay needs to have DPST contacts. One set of contacts sends AC for the gateman, one set of contacts sends either AC or DC (your choice) for the alternating flasher circuit (regardless of which one you use.)

Well, Bill's Deptronic board would have been perfect, as the gateman could have been run from the boards relay 'C' and 'NO' terminals, while his modified AF signal would flash the lamps.  But the board is out of commission, unless Bill wants me to repair one or both for cost of postage.

Understood. I just try to provide easier, and less complicated, solutions where they exist.  I'm an old relay kind of guy, you see.  I have torn my minimal hair out over cutesy-pie electronic boards created by experts, who avoided thinking about real-life scenarios, like spikes, sneak paths, EMF interference, etc.

Carry on, and I hope you can help the OP come to a satisfying solution.

Arthur P. Bloom posted:

Understood. I just try to provide easier, and less complicated, solutions where they exist.  I'm an old relay kind of guy, you see.  I have torn my minimal hair out over cutesy-pie electronic boards created by experts, who avoided thinking about real-life scenarios, like spikes, sneak paths, EMF interference, etc.

Carry on, and I hope you can help the OP come to a satisfying solution.

As a 8+ Y.O. kid (yeah, nerd before term was popular), I designed relay logic stuff, even figuring out a primitive telephone system using the phone dial to step a stepper switch that rang other phones (course took 6 or 7 wires to each phone to make relays work ).  However paid off later as I came in cold to telephone job maintaining step by step office equipment and could debug and fix that "old obsolete junk relay stuff".   Job security until I saved enough money to go back and get my engineering degree.  Still have great affection for relay logic and have fun reading old RR signal plans, and "how they did it" without computers (of course those circuits were computers in a sense with the logic to set signals and turnouts as well as designed to be 99.44% failsafe.

rrman posted:

Arthur P. Bloom posted:

Instead of DC / diode activation, I overlooked the easier, and more obvious, method: One AC relay, activated by the insulated rail. The relay needs to have DPST contacts. One set of contacts sends AC for the gateman, one set of contacts sends either AC or DC (your choice) for the alternating flasher circuit (regardless of which one you use.)

Well, Bill's Deptronic board would have been perfect, as the gateman could have been run from the boards relay 'C' and 'NO' terminals, while his modified AF signal would flash the lamps.  But the board is out of commission, unless Bill wants me to repair one or both for cost of postage.

I will take you up on the offer.  May be a week or two getting to it.  Will email you soon.