Wow, just found this video, it's from 2017.
What a great CGI video! I had a friend who worked at Disney who showed me some things they were doing just like this. I was astounded.
@BOB WALKER posted:Aside from the high interest (which includes me) , there is always the intellectual property issue of "prior art". Having previously worked in patent licensing, I looked into this and was surprised to find that there are current active patents for voice control of trains. I also found that earlier relevant cited patents date back to 1994. Any future commercialization of this concept will ultimately have to deal with this situation.
Thanks for making me aware of this, as for "prior art " I'm guessing it's a pretty broad term. I assume it really means I just can't do things the way any one of these patents mentioned. Good thing I have never seen them and therefor can imagine whatever I come up with will have some degree of uniqueness as a result. I doubt they can patent the entire idea of making a model train move by using a voice command. Sounds a little broad. I will keep an eye open for this stuff. I am certainly no patent lawyer though. My passion is programming.
@Casey_Jones posted:
@BOB WALKER posted:What a great CGI video! I had a friend who worked at Disney who showed me some things they were doing just like this. I was astounded.
Exactly, neat concept/train simulator, I can tell that took a good bit of effort from someone.
@Ryaninspiron posted:Thanks for making me aware of this, as for "prior art " I'm guessing it's a pretty broad term. I assume it really means I just can't do things the way any one of these patents mentioned. Good thing I have never seen them and therefor can imagine whatever I come up with will have some degree of uniqueness as a result. I doubt they can patent the entire idea of making a model train move by using a voice command. Sounds a little broad. I will keep an eye open for this stuff. I am certainly no patent lawyer though. My passion is programming.
Prior art is actually a concept used in defending competing patents or defending against a patent claim.
For example, if two people filed patents for very similar ideas around the same time, the court will use prior art to establish who originated which parts of the idea first. This can be something as simple as dated engineering notes or computer records. In other cases it can be used to prevent a patent claim. For instance, if you had invented a process for making steel that was very strong and had been using it for many years and did not patent it, but then someone unaware of your process came along and tried to file a patent for it and the sue you, your “prior art” can be used to defend against their claim.
Unfortunately, there have been revisions to the patent award process as recently as 2011 in the US. At that time we switched from a “first to invent“ policy to a “first to file” one. This brought us more in-line with European law, but at the expense of small inventors and to the benefit of entrenched interests.
Add to this that anyone with a pulse and enough money can get a software patent today, making the software industry a bit of a mind field for the little guy. I’m on your side that there is nothing particularly novel about the idea and probably shouldn’t even get a patent for the idea as a whole, but be careful and do some research is probably the best advice.
this is all great info an interesting conversation, thank you.
What's the next big thing that "needs" to happen to our hobby?
Legos have gone to Bluetooth, Train and Layout Control via iPad and have AR
Slot cars have highly detailed cars (1:32 & 1:24 scales), wireless control, digital tracks systems (lane changing), iPad control for gamification ie set the weather conditions, tires, braking, speed, fuel, race schedules, and select to run actual real race tracks, pace cars, up to 6 drivers/cars on a track (1:32, 4 for 1:24), pit stops to refuel, change tires, etc. They introduced critical thinking and strategy. I imagine AR will be next, with the eventual removal of the slots in slot cars to allow for an even more realistic experience.
Point being, for Legos, it's not about the detail of the trains, it's about the interaction/experience to attract and retain people
Slot cars, in my opinion, they have hit the top for detail in the cars, ie how much better/realistic/detailed can they make cars? It's about the interaction, the gamification the products will have that will keep that hobby alive
Trains, specifically 3 rail, same question, how much more detailed can we get on the locos, freight, and passenger cars and still be affordable? I think we have really hit the mountain top. Any improvements will be incremental and will be the result of a natural progression of manufacturing improvement, ie nothing truly "innovative". I'm sure over time we will see some high-end features trickle down like swinging bells, steam coming out of whistles, etc. Those are nice, but not game-changers that would attract someone to the hobby.
I believe the next focus should be on interaction with the trains via an app where you set conditions on weather, fuel, load, route, cargo, curves, inclines, speed et, etc. have the ability to run your trains by railroading rules, must sound horn/whistle at..... must use lights, stop for X time at a signal, whatever. How well can you run your railroad, you can earn points and compete with other railroaders on your layout or from another state.
Am I suggesting this is for everyone? No. We still have folks that just wanna play with legos, run slot cars, and run trains around the Christmas tree and I see nothing wrong with that.
Just thinking, it's time for another wave of innovation to attract and retain the next generation to the hobby
When I first saw the thread title, I read it as "Smart Alec speaker" 
! Oh well.
@Casey_Jones posted:this is all great info an interesting conversation, thank you.
What's the next big thing that "needs" to happen to our hobby?...
...I believe the next focus should be on interaction with the trains via an app where you set conditions on weather, fuel, load, route, cargo, curves, inclines, speed et, etc. have the ability to run your trains by railroading rules, must sound horn/whistle at..... must use lights, stop for X time at a signal, whatever. How well can you run your railroad, you can earn points and compete with other railroaders on your layout or from another state.
Am I suggesting this is for everyone? No. We still have folks that just wanna play with legos, run slot cars, and run trains around the Christmas tree and I see nothing wrong with that.
Just thinking, it's time for another wave of innovation to attract and retain the next generation to the hobby
I agree with the interaction side. I'm a total noob at it but I think sensors and Arduino create a great environment for us to take on the creation of interaction where you're loading and unloading trains at stations. This is on my to-do list after I figure out how to turn LEDs on and off in the starter tutorial for Arduino haha but I think it could darn near be accomplished with NFC tags maybe. I feel like there's a lot of potential here.
Fortunately for us modelers, Intellectual property law does not preclude the use of what might be covered in a patent for personal/ hobby purposes as long as there is no attempt to commercialize.
@Ryaninspiron posted:Exactly, neat concept/train simulator, I can tell that took a good bit of effort from someone.
Ryan,
At first when I read about you doing this as people do not want to be alone I was thinking that you do not know people. 😜
I think you are really on to something here, having an operating session with the “yardmaster” could be a lot of fun. It would take the hobby to the next level. You have the potential here to get the younger generation interested as well as the older ones, keep up the good work!
@BOB WALKER posted:Fortunately for us modelers, Intellectual property law does not preclude the use of what might be covered in a patent for personal/ hobby purposes as long as there is no attempt to commercialize.
That is a common misconception. Patent law contains no exemption for personal or non-profit use; only a very limited non-statutory experimental use defense. Supposedly MTH wrote threatening letters to OGR members who posted about reverse-engineering DCS in the past, although I don't know if that's really true.
However, few if any patentees would bother filing infringement suits against hobby or noncommercial use.
In any case, just because there are patents out there that talk about voice control, does not mean that this system would infringe. One would have to carefully examine the claims in the particular patent in light of the prior art to determine what rights the patent actually confers.
@Guitarmike posted:Ryan,
At first when I read about you doing this as people do not want to be alone I was thinking that you do not know people. 😜
I think you are really on to something here, having an operating session with the “yardmaster” could be a lot of fun. It would take the hobby to the next level. You have the potential here to get the younger generation interested as well as the older ones, keep up the good work!
Different strokes for different folks right?
For those who love the silence they certainly don't need this, I did use the disclaimer of "generalization" in that post. Also notice I didn't specify talking to people or at people . I have been using the Alexa system to control my lights at the house to the point where saying a command to the speaker is more convenient than picking up a remote and hitting some buttons.
For those who love the silence they certainly don't need this, I did use the disclaimer of "generalization" in that post. Also notice I didn't specify talking to people or at people . I have been using the Alexa system to control my lights at the house to the point where saying a command to the speaker is more convenient than picking up a remote and hitting some buttons.For me at least, any extra level of immersiveness makes things a whole lot more fun.
Thanks.
@Casey_Jones posted:this is all great info an interesting conversation, thank you.
What's the next big thing that "needs" to happen to our hobby?
....
I believe the next focus should be on interaction with the trains via an app where you set conditions on weather, fuel, load, route, cargo, curves, inclines, speed et, etc. have the ability to run your trains by railroading rules, must sound horn/whistle at..... must use lights, stop for X time at a signal, whatever. How well can you run your railroad, you can earn points and compete with other railroaders on your layout or from another state.
Am I suggesting this is for everyone? No. We still have folks that just wanna play with legos, run slot cars, and run trains around the Christmas tree and I see nothing wrong with that.
Just thinking, it's time for another wave of innovation to attract and retain the next generation to the hobby
Thanks for adding that great perspective. I hadn't realized Legos and slot-cars have come that far along. Very interesting.
@PRRMP54 posted:When I first saw the thread title, I read it as "Smart Alec speaker"
Ha ha, Sometimes Alexa can be a smart alec so your not too far off. Sometimes you think your speaking English but she thinks otherwise.(based on the responses).
@BillYo414 posted:I agree with the interaction side. I'm a total noob at it but I think sensors and Arduino create a great environment for us to take on the creation of interaction where you're loading and unloading trains at stations. This is on my to-do list after I figure out how to turn LEDs on and off in the starter tutorial for Arduino haha but I think it could darn near be accomplished with NFC tags maybe. I feel like there's a lot of potential here.
Thanks, and it's true that Arduino's add a lot of possibility but on the note of NFC, you have an interesting set of issues. While the tags are cheaper, the readers on the other hand not so much, they also have a challenges for use on the railroad.
For one you probably cant put them under the track because the rails would interfere with the signal. Two, you cant tell direction(coming or going) with an NFC reader alone. Three, not sure on the scan time but I would be concerned about how fast you can be moving in order for the scanner to have time to check for and then read the tag.(I have doubts about full speed in that case).
For the first issue of placement, sure you can probably hide them in a building wall near the track but then you may not be close enough to read. The other issues will have to be tested to know for sure. NFC is certainly worth checking out, but practicality may be an issue.
@Ryaninspiron posted:Thanks, and it's true that Arduino's add a lot of possibility but on the note of NFC, you have an interesting set of issues. While the tags are cheaper, the readers on the other hand not so much, they also have a challenges for use on the railroad.
For one you probably cant put them under the track because the rails would interfere with the signal. Two, you cant tell direction(coming or going) with an NFC reader alone. Three, not sure on the scan time but I would be concerned about how fast you can be moving in order for the scanner to have time to check for and then read the tag.(I have doubts about full speed in that case).
For the first issue of placement, sure you can probably hide them in a building wall near the track but then you may not be close enough to read. The other issues will have to be tested to know for sure. NFC is certainly worth checking out, but practicality may be an issue.
I got into a discussion with my brother about this and he brought up what you brought up. He said that it looks like a great idea from a distance but the intricate logistics might stop me. I was thinking it would be handy in a boxcar and you could pull up alongside a building and it would read. That's great except there's other rolling stock.
Now I'm entertaining an infrared beam like what we already see on the tender and locomotives. We'll see. I do think having info on board and feeding that info back to JMRI or something is the future. I just don't know if the DIY tinkerer will do it first or a business will do it first. I hope that whoever does it is willing to keep it open source so third party development can contribute.
Regardless, awesome project my man!
RFID identification is pretty simple to implement; I've put tags in diesel shells, plastic tenders and rolling stock & read them with a reader hidden in a trackside building. But you need something else to get more precise position information about the train.
For the Arduino-based automated control system I built, an RFID tag identifies the locomotive when it first enters the layout, and the train is subsequently tracked with insulated rail sensors placed at the beginning and end of each track block.
@Professor Chaos posted:RFID identification is pretty simple to implement; I've put tags in diesel shells, plastic tenders and rolling stock & read them with a reader hidden in a trackside building. But you need something else to get more precise position information about the train.
For the Arduino-based automated control system I built, an RFID tag identifies the locomotive when it first enters the layout, and the train is subsequently tracked with insulated rail sensors placed at the beginning and end of each track block.
Does RFID have a longer range than NFC?
@Ryaninspiron posted:For one you probably cant put them under the track because the rails would interfere with the signal. Two, you cant tell direction(coming or going) with an NFC reader alone. Three, not sure on the scan time but I would be concerned about how fast you can be moving in order for the scanner to have time to check for and then read the tag.(I have doubts about full speed in that case).
For the first issue of placement, sure you can probably hide them in a building wall near the track but then you may not be close enough to read. The other issues will have to be tested to know for sure. NFC is certainly worth checking out, but practicality may be an issue.
The direction issue can be easily solved by placing two readers (or tags) in a row. If you read A then B, eastbound. B then A, westbound, etc.
@rplst8 posted:The direction issue can be easily solved by placing two readers (or tags) in a row. If you read A then B, eastbound. B then A, westbound, etc.
Gotta love a simple fix like that.
@Ryaninspiron posted:Different strokes for different folks right?For me at least, any extra level of immersiveness makes things a whole lot more fun.Thanks.
Ryan,
I apologize, I meant to say you do not know some of the people I know. 😎
That said I am very excited to see you pushing through with this, the potential upside is huge.
