Almost Ready To Begin Construction

And here are the rest of the photos showing each level plus example of building placement.

In difference to our mobile friends I opted to not insert images into the post.

RTR12,

I've got some news regarding Mianne benchwork. I did a quick design using Mianne specs for their 30" kits and what a difference vs the photo of the L-girder I posted yesterday. One of the things I was concerned about was using their 45° pieces at the front of the entrance and in the center, but I find that those should work okay for my purposes. I was also worried about the back section fitting if the room wasn't at least 10' wide. However, we just measured it and found the room is actually wider than I thought at 10' 8 1/2". That means a standard 10'x12' benchwork in the shape of a horseshoe will fit quite nicely and give me about a 4" overhang all around the layout. So it looks like I'll be sending them a photo of my layout size with the outline of the Level 1 tabletop to see what kind of price I'd be looking at.

DoubleDAZ posted:

RTR12, I'm pretty much done with the revision, just need to prep some photos for posting. It's not all that different from my last horseshoe design except for replacing some O36 with O45 on Level 1 and adding 2 bridges across the entrance. I also added a lot more scenery to simulate cliffs and I even added a lake in the middle, more on that when I post the photos. I tried a lot of different approaches, but nothing seemed to satisfy my goals the way the last horseshoe did, so I ended up just tweaking it a bit.

When it comes to Mianne, I hear you, but I can't quite come to grips with the cost yet. For my purposes, I'd be looking at something close to the Model 11-30 kit, minus 1of the center sections in the back, at a cost of around $1,000 or so before laying the plywood tops. I haven't taken an inventory of what I'll need in the way of 1x3, 2x3 and 2x4 lumber for the DIY benchwork, but I have the tools needed to cut and assemble following MATTHEWG's technique.

It probably wouldn't hurt to email them a copy of my design at some point just to get a quote and see how close they can come to accommodating my needs. Since I'm in an enclosed space that might not be square, I don't want the sides or back going all the way to the walls and I plan to have an overhang so I can use the jigsaw to "sculpt" around the entrance and center. However, since I also want to use 1/2" tops, Mianne might be the best solution even if it does cost more. The cheaper 1x3 and 2x3 lumber is not the most straight, warp-free, etc., and I haven't priced the better stuff. One question I have with Mianne is if the 24" spacing is too wide for 1/2" plywood with the weight of 2 more levels on top of it. I guess if I made sure supports for the upper levels were on or near the benchwork, I shouldn't have a problem.

As for clubs, there are 3 O-Scale that I know of. The nicest one by far is the one that operates to layout at Scottsdale's McCormick-Stillman Railroad Park. That layout is one of three 1250 sf layouts (O-HO-N) in the railroad building. It costs $100/yr to join, you have to be sponsored (which I guess isn't hard) and attend 6 meetings before being voted on (I guess to make sure you really want to join).  Then all members are required to work two 4-hr running sessions on Sat/Sun, currently once every 6-8 weeks.

I haven't been to the LHS for over a year and need to go, if nothing else to see what his prices are these days. I bought my current 4-6-0 locally, but I'm not sure where I'll buy in the future. They are helpful over there though, so I'd like to support them. There are a couple more stores that sell O-Gauge equipment, but I don't consider them LHSs.

 

I like the 3D drawings. It looks like you have about as much as possible in the space you have and the track plan looks interesting as well. Maybe Moonman will be back to comment, I think he's much more qualified to comment on layout plans than I am. I think it looks good though.

I am not sure what it would have cost me to build my own bench work? I thought about it a little, but the Mianne was so much easier, faster and more flexible I never bothered to even try to figure it out. I had changes planned from the start too, where you have a set space and plan. I got the 6'x16' Mianne kit to start and I think it was around $800 and another $60 or so shipping a year and a half or so ago. The 1/2" plywood was about $35 a sheet and Home Depot cut it up for me at no charge. Mianne is made of poplar and they use 1/4" hardboard panels for the center of the cross braces. As you say, most of the ordinary lumber these days is not very stable and will warp and twist even after it's assembled. To get good lumber you might have to go to poplar or something like that to avoid or keep to a minimum the warping and twisting? The good quality stuff is expensive, but I have no idea how it will compare with the Mianne kits. I think it would be worth it to get a quote from them. 

I don't think the 1/2" plywood on the Mianne standard spacing would be a problem for you, but that is something I would check with them on to be sure. My table is quite sturdy, but it's a little differently shaped and structured than what you are building. I would imagine they design their different plans to be similar in support capacity, but I suppose there could be some differences? I have laid on mine and it didn't flex or budge much at all, I weigh about 175#. I wouldn't hesitate to add another level or two to it and wouldn't worry too much about where the supports were. I don't think another layer or two of plywood, a few more boards and some trains and buildings would be that much additional weight. They can probably work you up a custom kit that will meet your needs. 

The other thing you are using that I am sold on is Atlas track and switches. I won't give another sales pitch, but I really like the stuff. I have also had good dealings with Atlas with both parts and questions and they have gone out of their way to help me each time. The track and bench work are the only things I am sure of as far as my layout goes and what it is going to get expanded to.

I saw a plan in a magazine recently showing a patch of scenery like you have the water in your 3D model. Thiers was more straight lined and nor a jagged or curved shoreline like yours appears to be. They cut a piece of plywood to fit the opening and hinged it on one side so it could drop down for access like a drop down access section. I couldn't tell how they raised and lowered it or what held it up on the opposite side of the hinge, but it looked like a good idea. Just thought I would mention it as it looked like something you might be able to do with your middle section where you were talking about the removable piece there?

You slipped that in on me, I started a reply earlier, then went upstairs for a minute and ended up watching TV for a while before coming back to finish up.

Good to see you are getting more space. One thing about the Mianne, the measurements are to the center of the legs. So the actual length and width will be almost an inch wider on each end, actually a bit more than 3/4", but I said an inch to be safe. May be slightly more than 1" if you have baseboard molding along the walls. Mianne's 10' would be about 10'-2" actual size, not including any trim in the room itself. Sounds like you will have overhang anyway so you should be good there. If you just used 10' for the bench work in your 10' 8-1/2" you would be fine with room to spare. I can give you measurements if you other measurements from mine if you want any.

Thanks RTR12, you're thoughts about the cost echo mine. I know I can do it cheaper by using cheaper wood, but if I compare the price to standard L-girder using popular and consider my time, I suspect Mianne comes close enough. I know from experience with my old Christmas layout how much cheap wood warps, etc., over time and I don't want a repeat of that. Added to that, I showed my wife a photo the what Mianne offers and she gave me the go ahead. She watches a lot of DIY shows and loves the hardware used to put this stuff together. They're even using this hardware on cabinets, etc., for high-end homes these days.

The next question will be what to use over the plywood to keep the noise down. I was going to use sound-deadening board from HD/Lowe's, but I just saw a post talking about using regular old ceiling tiles. What do you use between the plywood and your track?

That sounds good on the go ahead! I told the owner of my LHS about the Mianne. Told him how long it took to put together and be ready for trains. He didn't think he could come close the that doing it himself, figuring his time and material costs. I can't remember who it was, but someone here posted a Mianne layout that they had stained. It really looked nice, like furniture almost. I think it was the same one where they had made train shelves in the sides. Wish I could remember who it was. Yes, Not positive, but the hardware they use might be like IKEA uses too.

I found Homasote here in town at one lumber yard, it was $42 a sheet and they wanted $50 (I think it was) to deliver it. I don't have anything to haul it in. Then I looked at HomeDepot and Lowes, but I didn't really like the Quietbrace or whatever it is they have and still no way to haul it home. So I decided to just go with roadbed under the track and nothing on the table top but plywood. Later on if I want to make mountains or something, HD has the foam sheets in smaller sizes so I can use that if I want to.

I pretty much decided on using Flexxbed for road bed under the track. I tried some a while back and it was pretty quiet and not too difficult to use. Eric Siegel (ericstrains.com) has a tutorial on using it, he also uses Atlas track. I didn't have enough to do my whole layout as it is now and I was going to wait until I got my expansion figured out before ordering the rest. I don't know if it would be reusable if I changed things too much? One thing about the Flexxbed and not a big deal, but you have to call them with your order and then mail them a check. When they get the check, they make your order. No Paypal or Credit cards. You can just mail the whole order with your check, but they saved me a little money after talking to them when I called and also learned a few things. If you look into that, I would call them for sure.

Another thing I discovered after the Flexxbed was Ross road bed. It fits the Atlas track pretty well and looks nice. Forum member Putnam Division posted pictures and I asked him about it a year or two ago. I looked into it a little bit, but never ordered any to try out as I was kind of sold on the Flexxbed. After thinking about it again, maybe I will order some to see what it's like. I will look around tomorrow and see if I can find the link to his post.

Yeah, I was surprised, but I haven't told her yet how much the track, engines and cars are going to cost.

There are places that sell Homasote's 440 SoundBarrier locally, haven't checked on prices, but the DIY stores only stock Homex 300. I wonder how much I could get out of a sheet just for under the track. I could certainly cut continuous pieces for the over/under grades and piece together everywhere else. I suspect 2-3 sheets might do it, so it's something I need to consider. I think I need to take another trip over to the McCormick park and talk to those folks again to take a closer look at their roadbed.

I've seen Eric's ballast tutorial featuring Flexxbed, but I'd forgotten about it, that is what I had planned on using too. I guess I could test things without the Homasote and see how noisy it is. Since I already have some RealTrax O31, I'll be testing that too because I might use that for Level 3. It's tighter than the Atlas O36, but that shouldn't make much difference on Level 3 and might actually give me a little more space for scenery. I'm in the process of expanding the layout now since I found I've got 8 1/2" more width to work with. I want to see what that does to the overhang and I might as well add an alternate Level 3 using the RealTrax while I'm at it.

I like the Ross Bed too, though it is 2.5 times more expensive. I don't plan to ballast, but I might change mind at some point and it looks like Ross Bed might be hard to ballast since it fills the space between the ties.

Oh my, save all that for later and don't expose all those added costs at one time (it takes several days for the lumps to go down). These things need to be introduced very gently and in phases, many phases!

The Homasote is really good for holding screws and fastening things to. For scenery you can just stick stuff like trees in it and they will hold. At least that is what some of the stuff I have read about it has stated. That is one thing I really liked about Homasote and would certainly be good to have. The bad thing about cutting Homasote for roadbed (or anything else) is the mess. I have seen posts (or read articles?) about folks using Homabed (Homasote road bed), but I think it was pretty expensive as well and I may have seen that while reading about an HO layout? I don't know if it is made for O gauge?

The Flexxbed isn't inexpensive, but it works well. I did not realize the Ross bed was that much more? I guess I will just stick with the Flexxbed as I had planned. I was actually thinking about using the 1/4" instead of the 3/8", but I will probably end up mixing both sizes between mains and yards. The other neat thing about is that it's available in sheets, forget the size, but they were fairly good sized if I remember correctly.

Having different levels, you could maybe try something different on each one. I think any of these three selections would be good for sound and make a good roadbed for the track. The Atlas is actually pretty quiet by itself, right on the bare plywood. It you run the trains fairly slowly, it would probably be adequate with nothing under it. When you speed them up a bit it gets a little noisy though. The Flexxbed makes it extremely quiet either way though, at least to my old ears.

Another thought is just plain old cork road bed. I haven't tried it, but I bet with Atlas track it would be pretty quiet. It is not nearly as expensive and I think it also comes in sheets. My LHS likes using it. The owner used to build layouts, but now the train shop takes up all his time (he's a one man shop) and there is none left for layout building.

I can't seem to find the thread with the stained Mianne bench work? I looked around today for a while and came up empty. I am almost positive I saw it here on the forum though. It really did look nice. I'll poke around some more, maybe I will think of a better search phrase? That's bugging me now, the more I think about it, I think that may have been the one that had some neat train storage shelves built into the legs too?

The money is already in the bank, so it's more a matter of when I'll need things. I want to get the tabletop on first and do some sound testing with the RealTrax I currently have. I know it'll be louder than Atlas, but I should be able to see what impact different materials have.

When it comes to cost, what I saw said Ross Bed was $2.49 for a 10" straight whereas Flexxbed worked out closer to a $1.05, but had to be bought in bulk, so the end-price depends on how much you use. I think the sheets are designed for turnouts, but I didn't notice the size either.

I run my trains fairly slow, but I intend to run 4 trains at a time in an enclosed room, so I'd like to minimize noise if I can. I don't know how much noise is transferred through the screws, but putting screws into Homasote should be easier than plywood. Like you, I don't look forward to the mess that cutting it will make. I've never used a roadbed, so I don't know what cork is like to work with. From what I've seen in videos though, I think Flexxbed might be worth the cost.

I'm trying to figure out why someone would stain the Mianne. I intend to cover my layout with skirting.

The other advantage to Mianne is the built-in leveling capability, something I had forgotten about.

I played around with SCARM this afternoon and built a fairly crude 3D version of my latest horseshoe design. As you can see, I didn't fiddle with track spacing to keep the default terrain from covering the tracks below. I'm pretty confident I'll be able to make things fit by cutting straight and flex sections to length once I start laying track. The RR-Track and SCARM files are just a vehicle to see what things will look like as the layout progresses. Many of the individual curve sectional pieces connected to straights will be replaced with flextrack for a more sweeping look and allow tracks to be spaced properly. I hope I'm not putting too much faith in being able to do that with Atlas Flextrack. Anyway, here are the 3D photo and SCARM file.

Just thought I'd update this thread with the latest version of my layout. The basic premise hasn't changed much, but this version uses O31/O54 ScaleTrax instead of Atlas. ScaleTrax was my first choice and I'm going back to it unless it's not available when I get ready to order. The layout is still at 33" with the top level at 49", but that may change when I talk to the Mianne folks. I'm concerned about raising it too much because we want to be able to see Bedford Falls on the top level and my wife is only 5'2".

Anyway, I replaced the Atlas O36/O45 curves with ScaleTrax O31 curves in the front of the horseshoe, the middle over/under and the top level loops. That adds more space for our Bedford Falls collection. I kept the O54 for the back curves and some around the faux-lake. My goal is to replace all the track around the lake with FlexTrack though, so the track that's there is just for planning purposes and to be able to run the simulation in RR-Track. I also intend to use FlexTrack liberally for all the straight sections to minimize cuts and connections, and make it easier to line things up even though everything fits in RR-Track.

I also converted the top level loop-to-loop to a plain old dog bone. I did this so I could run 2 trains or longer trains up there at times and minimize potential problems with switches.

I'm still open to suggestions, but I think I'm pretty set on this basic design. I'd love to connect the 2 levels, but climbing from 33" to 49" was just too daunting given the space I have. I might still try to connect the 2 tracks on level 1 to add some variety, but I'm not sure I have the space.

DAZ,

How is it that I have not seen your topic until yesterday?  Oh well, better late than never to the party.  Are you designing a layout for my (soon-to-be-I-hope) room?  Mine is 12x12 with a sliding glass door in the middle of the one side.  Good for getting lumber, etc into the room.  The door to the rest of the basement is in an adjacent corner.  I have had similar thoughts of how to fill the room, and the horseshoe is what I think will work.  I thought of the big peninsula in the middle, but discarded that idea.  As I gather is the same for you, my thinking is always clouded with over 40 years of HO thinking, I only got into O gauge 3-4 years ago.

Anyway, on to yours.  I REALLY like the idea of the bridges over the opening.  I personally think it is perfect.  Oh, I need to say, I skimmed through all the posts on your development with the handy ideas of forum members.  I will read through it all at a later date.  I like higher bench work for getting underneath, but was concerned with making sure future grandchildren could see and run trains on the lowest level at least.  That is one thing I goofed with when our girls were little.  My bench work was 50 inches high.  Great for me viewing, but didn't work out for the girls.  The layout was built before they were born.

Having come from HO, I like the looks of ScaleTrax, Atlas, andGarGraves track.  Have you considered GarGraves, or have I missed something?  For a while it seemed Atlas was not able to fill orders, but I get the idea it is available again.  the ScaleTrax seems to not have much of a following, but I have seen some use it effectively.

I would like to see the levels connected too, but I think the grade would be too steep in such a small room.  I would be willing to sacrifice that, making sure I didn't build a headache into the layout.  My HO background tells me they must be connected, but since you are like me, and want to see several trains run at a time, the connecting grade is unnecessary. 

I do not know if I added anything to the discussion, other than to say I'm with you on this!

Mark, I appreciate you stopping by and commenting.  I also come from the HO and N world, though I never was able to finished a layout while in the Air Force. Most of my ideas come from being a visitor to garden railroads around Phoenix when they have their annual holiday open houses for charity. I view my layout from the perspective of a visitor who has to stay on the other side of the barriers. I like to watch trains run from a distance rather that walk along the benchwork following a train.  I tried a peninsula and it just didn't work for me and what I was interested in. My layout actually became a combination of horseshoe and around-the-room styles when I added the 2 bridges. My intent is to remain outside the layout and only go into the center when there's a problem. The "lake" will be removable, but stay in place most of the time.

The main reason for the layout is to be able to display our Bedford Falls collection fulltime vs just at Christmas. I have little interest in switching beyond moving trains from one set of tracks to another. The 2 bridges should give me the capability to run 2 trains in opposite directions and require some interaction on my part to avoid collisions as well as decide to take the inside route or remain on the outside oval. I will be able to run 3 trains unattended during the holidays or when there are visitors.

The reason for the lower height is because I can't stand for long periods and intend to work on crafts in another part of the room while trains are running. If it were just for kids to be able to see, I'd build some sort of fold-down ramps like the kneelers at church (Catholic ).

I've not considered GarGraves and I don't really know why other than I wanted solid rail to cut down on noise. I've always wanted ScaleTrax because of its appearance.  I nixed it though because I didn't want to use O31 curves and Atlas offered both solid rail and O45 curves that would fit. However, after going through the planning/discussion process and converting the layout from Atlas to ScaleTrax to FasTrack to RealTrax, I've simply reached the conclusion that 10x12 just isn't a large enough space for me to do what I really want, so I may as well bite the bullet and use O31.

All my gear will be MTH rated for O31 and I'm not nostalgic for any particular engines, etc. I realize GarGraves is popular, but too much popularity in general is based on cost and even some Made In USA patriotism. Now that I've decided O31 is okay though, I'll rework the design with GarGraves just to see. I guess the biggest deterrent is not having an LHS that stocks various track so I can see the differences for myself. FlexTrack is another big reason for ScaleTrax.

I've also seen a lot more discussion (and acceptance) of layouts with tighter turns. That could be because there aren't that many purists participating in the layout forum or it could just be a matter of practicality. I could come up with something with wider curves, but if I wouldn't be happy with it, what's the point, right? I will say one thing, I'm not big on deciding based on popularity.

I still haven't given up on connecting at least the 2 sets of track on the lower level, though it's not a big priority at the moment. I may change my mind once I get the benchwork/tabletop top installed and start playing around with some actual track.

Dave,

Yes, the Bedford Falls town will look great up there, and of course your wife needs a good view!  My wife is 5' 5", both daughters are 5' 4", as is our son-in-law, so I have to keep that in mind since I am 5' 11".  My current layout is in our daughter's former bedroom, as is all her furniture, and I have taken comfort in sitting on the bed watching the trains, where I always stood in the past.  Something to keep in mind as I rapidly approach the Big Six Oh.  

As you know, coming from an HO, and I built one layout in N I might add, track noise is a factor.  In all the discussions here, on other forums, FaceBook, and in person, this is the first I can recall anyone mentioning tubular track being inherent to noise as opposed to solid track!  It makes sense.  Makes me want to take another look at Atlas and ScaleTrack!  If I try to keep the engine sound down with the door shut, to help my wife's migraines, I can hardly hear the engine over the track noise with Fastrack on carpet, with no screws or nails pulling it into contact with the train board.  Not acceptable to me.  I only have two small ovals of Fastrack, so the experiment is worth the small loss.

well, I am certainly looking forward to seeing this layout come off paper, oh gave away I'm an old engineer, come off the screen pixels, and into real life.  Thanks.

Dave, I just read through this thread, and I think you have made a good choice with your latest layout. I wish I would have seen this thread sooner, before I began building my layout. Mine is only partially built, and its already seeming boring in my head. I also like your idea of having your bedford falls scenery out all year. I've been thinking of having an entire level for winter scenery as well. As far as sound goes, I originally had just OSB on my table top. I put down some temporary track, and wow was it loud. I then covered the top with homasote, tried again, and it made a huge difference in sound. I have no experience with other sound dampening boards, but homasote did the trick for me. It was only $26 a sheet at my local lumber yard and I could it with a utility knife.

Colt, I'm a bit concerned that this will get boring too, but I'm hoping that adding the bridges and having 3-6 trains running at the same time will help me avoid that. Now that I've reconciled myself to using O31, I'm actually considering adding a helix to one of the ends of the horseshoe to tie the over/under track to the top level. However, right now that would mean a 14" rise and I'm not sure how that would work, but it gives me something to play with in RR-Track and/or SCARM. I have no experience with a helix, so if nothing else maybe I'll learn something.

What track are you using? I haven't sourced Homasote here yet, but if I can get it for $26/sheet, I'd certainly consider it. My rise for the over/under is 7", so I should be able to add it without altering anything.

FWIW, I think our tile goes on sale today at Lowe's, so we might put in our order and get the ball rolling on the tile work that needs to be done before I can start construction.

Why a 7" rise?

Mark Boyce posted:

Dave,

Yes, the Bedford Falls town will look great up there, and of course your wife needs a good view!  My wife is 5' 5", both daughters are 5' 4", as is our son-in-law, so I have to keep that in mind since I am 5' 11".  My current layout is in our daughter's former bedroom, as is all her furniture, and I have taken comfort in sitting on the bed watching the trains, where I always stood in the past.  Something to keep in mind as I rapidly approach the Big Six Oh.  

As you know, coming from an HO, and I built one layout in N I might add, track noise is a factor.  In all the discussions here, on other forums, FaceBook, and in person, this is the first I can recall anyone mentioning tubular track being inherent to noise as opposed to solid track!  It makes sense.  Makes me want to take another look at Atlas and ScaleTrack!  If I try to keep the engine sound down with the door shut, to help my wife's migraines, I can hardly hear the engine over the track noise with Fastrack on carpet, with no screws or nails pulling it into contact with the train board.  Not acceptable to me.  I only have two small ovals of Fastrack, so the experiment is worth the small loss.

well, I am certainly looking forward to seeing this layout come off paper, oh gave away I'm an old engineer, come off the screen pixels, and into real life.  Thanks.

Mike, I wish I had more to compare regarding noise. All I know is I was not happy with RealTrax on foam and saw how quiet the Atlas track was on Homasote on plastic "wood" on the Scottsdale layout. Of course, that layout shares a wide open space with 2 other layouts that also have 1250 sf to work with, so I don't know how quiet it would be in my 10x21 bedroom.

I can't afford the plastic wood, but I can afford the 1/2" plywood and Homasote, if I can source it locally for a decent price. I'm not looking at that many sheets and the layout is going to be about half as big as I was originally planning.

When it comes to noise, I think solid rail gives one more options regarding roadbed choices. Some are happy with it right on plywood. I think I'd have to at least have to add cork or rubber roadbed and I'm sure adding Homasote really does the trick. I get the appeal of RealTrax and FasTrack with the roadbed, but I didn't expect the noise when I bought my set. The price of the set basically made the track free vs buying the engine and cars separately, so I don't consider it a loss and I can probably sell what I have.

A helix would add some interest to your layout. I have very little experience with all this, so take it for what its worth. I tried making an incline in the past using lionel's graduated tressel set. I spaced them according to spec. Some of the tressels were on O27 curves. I learned the hard way that my engines could barely power themselves up the straight incline, and would bind up in the curves to almost a halt. Add any rolling stock and forget it. Grant it, I only have extremely cheap and used locomotives but I would still keep this in the back of your mind. I would hate to see you build all this up and learn the hard way as I did.

I am using Menards brand O72 tubular curves and straights for my outer loop. I'm going to pick this up today so I can't speak for its quality. The rest of what I have is all lionel O27 with some O27 42" curves and O27 switches. I'm on a tight budget, so this is about as good as it gets for me for now. My S gauge will be all standard old american flyer track. If I do HO, it will be ez track, which has been problematic for me in the past, but again, its what I have.

Also, homasote.com has a "where to buy" button that may help you locate some, should you go that route.

Colt, I forgot to add that I don't intend to make Bedford Falls a year-round winter scene even though some of the buildings are decidedly winter. That's my fallback, but I first want to see if I can come up with a way to add "snow" and then remove it. I'm sure there's some fake snow I can sprinkle on and vacuum off, but I haven't looked that far ahead. I just know that we're tired of pulling the collection out each year and then packing it away again. I know it's not scale, but I don't care about that. For us, it's good enough to display all year and use as the basis for a layout. I haven't been happy with the white batting I've used and I don't know how I'd easily remove it every year, but then I'm concerned about using fake snow that can really make a mess. I guess I'll cross that bridge when I get to it, it's still a bit down the road because I'm going to live with the bottom level for awhile before I add the larger Bedford Falls level. Bedford Falls itself will just be a series of removable shelves, so I can add them without adding the track and the rest of that level.

aubv posted:

Why a 7" rise?

To be honest, I don't know. I just used 7" in RR-Track for planning purposes, partly because I'm not sure if I'm going to use 1/2" or 3/4" plywood plus 1/2" Homasote for roadbed and I wanted to make sure my over/under would work no matter what I decide. I was going to cookie-cut the rise, but now I think I'll use the prefab grade from Woodland Scenics covered with rubber roadbed which will be thinner.

I realize that all I need to account for in the end is the height of my tallest smokestack and the height of the undercarriage of the bridge I decide to use for the over/under. I  wanted to make sure things would fit as I was designing. I think my tallest smokestack will be on the 4-4-0 I want for the top level, but I want the over/under to work with it too. Tunnel portals are 6 1/2" high inside, so I figured 7" gave me plenty of leeway. Anything less just gives me a smaller grade and works to my advantage. The final height will be whatever the prefab grade material is. I think those are in 2" increments, so the final will probably be around 6". I guess the absolute minimum height from top of track to bottom of overhead is 4 1/4" and 5 3/4" is recommended in order to be able to run double-stacks, etc., though I won't have anything that tall.

I also used 7" for the separation for the top level above that because I have no idea what the reach is going to be like for the hidden siding and track along the back wall. I figure 14" will give me access to those tracks, but I'm willing to lower it once I see how things look after the bottom level is done. The top level will be removable modules for access. Landscaping will also be on removable platforms, like the middle of each loop. I'm certainly open to suggestions.

Colt, I have no experience with this either beyond fiddling with O scale as a kid and in the 70's with HO and N scale, but only tot he track stage. I expect to learn a lot as I go and that's partly why I'm going with a tabletop layout and will probably get the benchwork from Mianne.

Based on what Carl said, I don't think I'm going to be able to make a helix work. He set me some examples,  but I just got home from Lowe's, so I haven't had a change to look at them yet. FWIW, our tile isn't one of those on sale, but it's cheaper than when we bought the first batch and he said he'd see what he could do once the measurements are done. I also get a military discount, so it looks like it's a go. We have a trip coming up, so the install may not be until mid-February.

I'm also on a budget, though maybe not as tight as yours since Ill be buying 4 new engines and rolling stock over time. My goal is to have 3 engines by next Christmas, I only have the MTH  2012 Christmas 4-6-0 passenger train set right now, but eventually want to buy 2 diesels, a 4-4-0 General and another steamer, probably a Mikado, all MTH RailKing. Looking at the General sets, I might need to buy that soon if I want the golden Spike version. I'll be in Georgia in April or high school and college baseball with the grandsons, so I may have to take a trip to Legacy Station in Atlanta.

DoubleDAZ posted:

aubv posted:

Why a 7" rise?

To be honest, I don't know. I just used 7" in RR-Track for planning purposes, partly because I'm not sure if I'm going to use 1/2" or 3/4" plywood plus 1/2" Homasote for roadbed and I wanted to make sure my over/under would work no matter what I decide. I was going to cookie-cut the rise, but now I think I'll use the prefab grade from Woodland Scenics covered with rubber roadbed which will be thinner.

I realize that all I need to account for in the end is the height of my tallest smokestack and the height of the undercarriage of the bridge I decide to use for the over/under. I  wanted to make sure things would fit as I was designing. I think my tallest smokestack will be on the 4-4-0 I want for the top level, but I want the over/under to work with it too. Tunnel portals are 6 1/2" high inside, so I figured 7" gave me plenty of leeway. Anything less just gives me a smaller grade and works to my advantage. The final height will be whatever the prefab grade material is. I think those are in 2" increments, so the final will probably be around 6". I guess the absolute minimum height from top of track to bottom of overhead is 4 1/4" and 5 3/4" is recommended in order to be able to run double-stacks, etc., though I won't have anything that tall.

I also used 7" for the separation for the top level above that because I have no idea what the reach is going to be like for the hidden siding and track along the back wall. I figure 14" will give me access to those tracks, but I'm willing to lower it once I see how things look after the bottom level is done. The top level will be removable modules for access. Landscaping will also be on removable platforms, like the middle of each loop. I'm certainly open to suggestions.

Doubledaz,

I doubt you will be running maxi-stacks on the layout, so....

I use 6-1/4" sub road bed to sub road bed, I know this isn't CW but, frankly the majority of rolling stock and engines will easily clear this dimension. There are a number of advantages to this dimension and needs a little explanation.

There is a product call pre-primed finger jointed pine.  In particular, 5/4" x 6". The actual dimensions are ~1-1/8" x 5-1/2", this makes a perfect vertical structure to then lay 3/4" plywood over it, to then become the sub road bed base for the next level. Even with cork road bed and track, the top of the rail to the bottom of the plywood is over 5".  This will easily support the next level above it. The clearance on a Lionel bascule bridge or lift bridge is less than that.  It is easily painted black prior to installing and worth doing.

There is  one k-line caboose that has a brass whistle that did cause a problem but....the advantages far out way, the few pieces of rolling stock, that might be relegated to the upper level.

There are a number of advantages, on a layout like yours.

Tunnel openings can be reduce in height, visually this is much more appealing.(see above) Thay are built  as indicated.

Scenery slopes in tight areas are reduced.

Grades are reduced.

While I haven't look closely(as in RR-track) at your layout, you may have an issue with bridge abutments.

As to Bedford Falls,

This is entirely modular, you could easily have a winter version and summer version and simply move the buildings from one to the other.  

aubv, I can guarantee I won't be running maxi-stacks.

I really appreciate the info you provided, and pardon my ignorance, but let me make sure I understand what you're saying. I'm easily confused without photos.

FWIW, I intend to use 1/2' plywood, not 3/4". Right now I'm planning to cover that with 1/2" Homasote making "my" sub-roadbed 1" thick. I further intend to add foam roadbed for further sound-deadening. However, before I purchase the Homasote, I'm going to run some tests without it and am hoping ScaleTrax will be quiet enough with just the foam on plywood. I want to run 4 trains in the 10x12 space in the 10x21 bedroom, so I need to consider that too. How is your noise level? Is that GarGraves on cork on plywood? I still need to redo my design for GarGraves, but I really like ScaleTrax.

Anyway, you're saying I need to measure 6 1/4" from the bottom of one level to the bottom of the next level. Laying the finger-jointed pine on the 3/4" plywood makes the 6 1/4" height and makes tunnels 5 1/2" tall. Some how I got the impression the engines were taller, but I see that the tallest engine I want (the 4-4-0 General or American) is 4 1/4" tall, so it should easily clear 5 1/2". Now, if I go with just the 1/2" plywood, I can lower my height to 6" and if I go with plywood and Homasote, I need to raise it to 6 1/2". Correct? Also, do you cut your portals or make your own to size? All the portals I saw are 6 1/2" tall on the inside.

When it comes to the overpass, I assume I measure to the underside of the overpass track support.

I don't understand why I'll have a problem with bridge abutments??? Honestly, I haven't given much thought to those supports and exactly how I'm going to do them. I assume you're talking about the upper bridge.

Thanks again for the info. I'm sure I'll have some questions along the way.

The ID can be changed very easily, depend on what you want. There is another way to do this but this works very well and is really easy.

The concern regarding the abutments is the proximity to the track.  Abutments need to be functional and look good, the bridge needs to sit on the abutment. 

Forgot to add this picture - 6-1/4 inches in height.

What do you use to make the drawings of the track, plywood and homasote, like you posted above?

rtr12 posted:

What do you use to make the drawings of the track, plywood and homasote, like you posted above?

Can be done in RR-Track or Corel.

Can be done in SCARM too, though I didn't take time to make it neater.

aubv, that's what I thought you meant. I have not researched bridges to see what lengths are available, etc., but I'll figure something out that will satisfy me. Both bridges have to be lift-out or lift-up. Initially they'll probably just be I-beam spans. I may even make the "mountain" come out to the edge and then jut out in an arch sort of way with tunnels for the 2 tracks underneath.

The squared off portal in your first post looks like the entrance is only 5 1/2" tall. I get that curved portals need to be higher for the sides to clear. I love the wall and that is the kind of look I'll be going for with the over/under line.

It looks so easy (and nice) when you all post these things...guess I need paractice, a LOT of practice.

First time reading the post. You are in for a lot of fun (work) enjoy every minute.

Brent

DoubleDAZ posted:

aubv, that's what I thought you meant. I have not researched bridges to see what lengths are available, etc., but I'll figure something out that will satisfy me. Both bridges have to be lift-out or lift-up....

The squared off portal in your first post looks like the entrance is only 5 1/2" tall. I get that curved portals need to be higher for the sides to clear. I love the wall and that is the kind of look I'll be going for with the over/under line.

I think you have an MTH bridge in the diagram. They are 30" long. However, MTH makes a ten inch extension. The rear bridge has an extension, cut in half, adding 5" to both sides.

In addition, both bridges have been modified with a box aluminum beam(black portion) that the bridges are attached. These are removable with a simple wiring harness. No tools needed.

If you look closely inside the tunnel opening with the B keystone, you can see the bottom of the plywood upper level. Inside on the left, beyond the embossed paper tunnel liner you can see the 5/4"x6" board painted black. The opening is just over 5-1/2"(height of 5/4" x6).

rtr12 posted:

It looks so easy (and nice) when you all post these things...guess I need paractice, a LOT of practice.

It's just a bunch of rectangles. Those are in the Objects library. You'll see the figure and then click on the upper part for an unfilled object and the bottom part for a filled one.  Couldn't find a straight line other than a thin rectangle, but I didn't really look. Once you get things looking the way you want, you can select them all and "Group" them so you can move them around and copy/paste them as one object.

BReece posted:

First time reading the post. You are in for a lot of fun (work) enjoy every minute.

My wife told me to order Mianne benchwork, so that will cut down on the work. They are also unconnected, so that also cuts down on work. I've never gotten past the track laying stage, so it'll be a learning experience and should be fun.

Thanks for the tips, Dave. Was that in RR-Track or SCARM? Or both? Guess I need to fiddle around some more in those things. Anymore it seems like I can't fiddle long enough to get going...either losing interest of getting bored too quickly I guess?

Also, your mention of Mianne prompted me to once again search for that stained example of it. This time success! I know you don't see the need, I didn't either until saw this post a while back. I think it looks really nice, especially in a finished room. I am just in an unfinished basement so it doesn't matter much here. Mianne bench work - Finished Take a look! He has one of those lift gates too! The train shelves are a nice touch, I may try to copy those here, not sure about the stain as mine are already up and trains running. I do want to make some changes though...

rtr12 posted:

Thanks for the tips, Dave. Was that in RR-Track or SCARM? Or both? Guess I need to fiddle around some more in those things. Anymore it seems like I can't fiddle long enough to get going...either losing interest of getting bored too quickly I guess?

That was SCARM, but it's the same basic process in RR-Track. It could also be done as a polygon, but that wouldn't allow you to vary the depth of each component. BTW, if you ever need help entering something like that, I'll be glad to help or even do it for you. And it can also be done vertically so it can be rendered in 3D and look like an actual tunnel entrance.  The only thing that can't be done in 3D are curved portals, at least not easily. One tip to make things like this look less like stacked boxes with all those lines is to change the border color of the object to the same color as the fill.

rtr12 posted:

Also, your mention of Mianne prompted me to once again search for that stained example of it. This time success! I know you don't see the need, I didn't either until saw this post a while back. I think it looks really nice, especially in a finished room. I am just in an unfinished basement so it doesn't matter much here. Mianne bench work - Finished Take a look! He has one of those lift gates too! The train shelves are a nice touch, I may try to copy those here, not sure about the stain as mine are already up and trains running. I do want to make some changes though... 

Darn, you just had to find the link, didn't you. That sure looks nice and I remember seeing it now, but now I need to think about it. What I might do is stain just the front and still skirt the inside. I do like the display cases, but I'll never buy that much equipment. Still, it never hurts to plan ahead.

aubv posted:

I think you have an MTH bridge in the diagram. They are 30" long. However, MTH makes a ten inch extension. The rear bridge has an extension, cut in half, adding 5" to both sides.

In addition, both bridges have been modified with a box aluminum beam(black portion) that the bridges are attached. These are removable with a simple wiring harness. No tools needed.

If you look closely inside the tunnel opening with the B keystone, you can see the bottom of the plywood upper level. Inside on the left, beyond the embossed paper tunnel liner you can see the 5/4"x6" board painted black. The opening is just over 5-1/2"(height of 5/4" x6).

Yes, those are MTH bridges. They just happened to be in the RR-Track library and give the look I envisioned. They'll also fit, so that's what I'll probably buy. Yours look great BTW. I'll probably use a lift-out too, though I need to figure how best to support the upper one on the pylons. I haven't thought about roadbed for that section yet, but I'd kind of like to be able to see through the track, so maybe some aluminum bars with railings to span the entire length. That's a ways off though, so I've got time to look for ideas. It also looks like I'll be able to reduce the height from 14" to 12", or less if I don't add the Homasote. I'm also thinking of supporting the top loops and crossover on pylons leaving just the tracks in front of the village on a shelf. That reminds me, I need to get the largest Bedford Falls building out and take some measurements while all the holiday stuff is still out.

I did see the plywood on the pine the first time I saw the photo. That's how I knew you were measuring from bottom to bottom. I prefer to think of it as 5 1/2" from top to bottom and not have to worry about how thick the sub-roadbed is. Anyway, I also intend to use flat tunnel portals, so I don't have to make room for arches.

DoubleDAZ posted:

aubv posted:

I think you have an MTH bridge in the diagram. They are 30" long. However, MTH makes a ten inch extension. The rear bridge has an extension, cut in half, adding 5" to both sides.

In addition, both bridges have been modified with a box aluminum beam(black portion) that the bridges are attached. These are removable with a simple wiring harness. No tools needed.

If you look closely inside the tunnel opening with the B keystone, you can see the bottom of the plywood upper level. Inside on the left, beyond the embossed paper tunnel liner you can see the 5/4"x6" board painted black. The opening is just over 5-1/2"(height of 5/4" x6).

.... I'm also thinking of supporting the top loops and crossover on pylons leaving just the tracks in front of the village on a shelf. ..

I did see the plywood on the pine the first time I saw the photo. That's how I knew you were measuring from bottom to bottom. I prefer to think of it as 5 1/2" from top to bottom and not have to worry about how thick the sub-roadbed is. Anyway, I also intend to use flat tunnel portals, so I don't have to make room for arches.

Be careful how you go about supporting and securing Plywood. 

I can't stress enough, you need to measure sub road bed to sub road bed. Anything else, in my case, leads to confusion, especially if you plan a grade. 

Have  you thought about any negative elevation detail?

aubv posted:

Be careful how you go about supporting and securing Plywood. 

I can't stress enough, you need to measure sub road bed to sub road bed. Anything else, in my case, leads to confusion, especially if you plan a grade. 

Have  you thought about any negative elevation detail?

I get it now why you prefer sub to sub. If I should inadvertently use 5 1/2” that really would mess up the grade calculations. Another point taken.