What supports the plywood where there is no bench work?
aubv posted:What supports the plywood where there is no bench work?
If you are talking about the overhang, I don't know yet. Here's what my initial benchwork was going to look like back on 12/6 before I thought about Mianne. I'm not opposed to going back to it, especially since you mentioned negative elevations, and I wouldn't mine lowering my over/under 3" so the "over" would only be 3: above grade and the top level could be lowered then too. I just noticed that I need to do something too to support the bridge module I just dreamed up. So, I might have to forget about Mianne and use tried & true benchwork. I'm open to a discussion and welcome your thoughts.
I also haven't thought about DCS wiring yet and what I'll need to support up to 2 trains per track.
Lot of thinking going on here. A lot of good questions too. I like it. Will Mianne do the lift up sections near the door as well?
Dave......love the discussion.....looking forward to seeing your progress.
Peter
Couple of observations.
Having fixed any number of layouts due to unsupported plywood, junk wood, lack of fasteners, excessive cantelivers, etc. -Bench work is the foundation for a good layout. You will never have a good layout without a good foundation. I'm guessing you wouldn't cobble together a foundation for a house and considering you will most likely measure in years the use of the layout, make the bench work right and you will never look back.
A plywood edge makes a terrible fascia. A fascia of 4-6" works well.
A layout that has a toe kick of no less tha 4", is a much more comfortable layout to work on, observe and can actually be much more visually appealing. Even when skirted, it will not feel like a giant block.
Example of what can be accomplished with a negative elevation element built into the bench work.(same layout in both picture)
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WDW (David) posted:Lot of thinking going on here. A lot of good questions too. I like it. Will Mianne do the lift up sections near the door as well?
If you're asking about their lift-up section, no, I won't be using that, too expensive for my needs. In fact, after talking with aubv this week, I'm having second thoughts about Mianne. I've assumed I won't need to support the 4"-6" overhangs because all that will be on them is track, nothing heavy. However, I now need to consider my lift-out sections and how I'll support those if the benchwork doesn't come all the way to the ends. I was going to support the upper level too with some simple uprights with 1x "arms" and anchor the back to the shelf that will hold Bedford Falls. Now it sounds like I may need to frame that too. I need to review auvb's latest post and see what I think will be the best approach. That's the whole point to posting this thread, to get feedback and ideas so I won't make too many mistakes. 
Putnam Division posted:Dave......love the discussion.....looking forward to seeing your progress.
Peter
You know, when I first posted this, there were very few comments/suggestions. After some discussions in other threads, more folks have come here to check it out and I'm getting the kind of feedback I need to make some key decisions, like benchwork. I appreciate all the comments and support, and hope I don't disappoint, but the bar is set very high here and I'm probably not up to the task when it comes to landscaping, absolutely no experience there.
I think you will be fine with that little amount of overhang. Doesn't look like more than 6" or so from here? If you use Mianne, ask them for a dozen or so extra clips and matching screws to fasten the top down. That way you can add a few here and there for extra support. They are meant to fasten to the legs, but you can also add them to the solid wood ends of the cross bracing.
I have been thinking about adding some overhang to my table. My grandson likes to run cars and trucks around the outer parts of the layout while the trains are running. He told me I didn't leave enough room on the outside for cars? Who am I to argue with a 10 year old? He does have some pretty good ideas.
I would have to get more plywood and do some re-arranging of the existing plywood, but I think it is easily do-able here. I was thinking of about a 6" border all the way around the layout, over lapping back to the leg supports of the Mianne table. I think that is sort of similar to what you have shown in your latest track plan showing the bench work. (Of course, I wouldn't try sitting on it. )
And, for your DCS wiring, get Barry's book and follow it as best as you can. Your DCS system will work very well if you follow the book and do a few things up front. Blocks are good and IMO, the MTH terminal blocks are worth every penny. So is the #14 & #16 wire sold by OGR at their store here.
aubv, I get it. My problem is translating something like that into a multi-level design for a 10x12 space enclosed on 3 sides. I like what you have there, it's beautiful, even without anything covering it. However, I've read so much on this forum touting L-girder as the holy grail of benchwork that my head spins. Then I see benchwork like yours and ask myself, "why that isn't given the same respect?". I'd much prefer to have 1x4 surrounding the entire layout right up to the edges, I don't really like the unsupported overhang either, though I'm not sure they wouldn't work with just track on them.
My simple 6x8 Christmas layout had a grid much like yours, but was supported by four 2x4 legs at the corners. In hindsight I should have placed the legs inside at least 1' rather than on the corners. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I see in your photo is a "fence" surrounding the layout. I see 3 rather large sections of grid-work. The section to the right straddles the full length of the fence. The other 2 sections are only anchored to the top of the fence on 2 sides leaving 1 corner of each to be supported by a single leg.
I put together what I think I see, so you'll have to let me know where I've got it wrong. I didn't played with negative elevations yet and I didn't pay close attention the spacing. I would square things off so both halves of the layout are mirror images, but I don't know if things should be on 16", 18", 20" or 24" centers or just kid of space them equally. I see I need another long one the right side and 2 more shorter ones on the left, but I hope I have the basic idea.
EDIT: The difference in thickness for the rails, lite and darker green, is just so I can differentiate them when selecting them for editing without having to put them on separate layers in RR-Track. I believe they're both 2x4s.
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Dave,
Your fence observation of AUBV's layout makes sense to me. I think your latest drawing has the essence of what he shared. I'll be glad to read his reply to see how far off I am in my observation skills. 
AUBV,
Thank you for the photos of your benchwork and below track level scenery. It does show one can build below track level on an open grid type benchwork. 
Personally, I have tried both open grid and L-girder in the past, I can work with either, but for myself, either can be made to work fine.
rtr12 posted:I think you will be fine with that little amount of overhang. Doesn't look like more than 6" or so from here? If you use Mianne, ask them for a dozen or so extra clips and matching screws to fasten the top down. That way you can add a few here and there for extra support. They are meant to fasten to the legs, but you can also add them to the solid wood ends of the cross bracing.
I have been thinking about adding some overhang to my table. My grandson likes to run cars and trucks around the outer parts of the layout while the trains are running. He told me I didn't leave enough room on the outside for cars? Who am I to argue with a 10 year old? He does have some pretty good ideas
I would have to get more plywood and do some re-arranging of the existing plywood, but I think it is easily do-able here. I was thinking of about a 6" border all the way around the layout, over lapping back to the leg supports of the Mianne table. I think that is sort of similar to what you have shown in your latest track plan showing the bench work. (Of course, I wouldn't try sitting on it.
And, for your DCS wiring, get Barry's book and follow it as best as you can. Your DCS system will work very well if you follow the book and do a few things up front. Blocks are good and IMO, the MTH terminal blocks are worth every penny. So is the #14 & #16 wire sold by OGR at their store here.
RTR12, I think I'd be okay with the overhang too, but like I said, I need to decide how to support my bridge slide-out, though I guess I could make the base large enough to reach the benchwork. Even so, I like the workbench design I posted a little earlier. I always thought this style had to use interlocked bracing, but I'd just arrange the braces so I'd have easy access to the screws for modifications. This style allows a lot more customization, especially for varying elevations, like the over/under. I'd like the curves to be on the main level and then have the under part go down 3" so that the upper would only have to rise 3" to make the 6" clearance. I could even have each side of the horseshoe at different levels.
And like you, I tend to put track close to the edge, but that's because I'm always space-challenged. What you need are swing-up shelves for your grandson to play on. When down, they would be the fascia.
I have Barry's book, just haven't gotten around to reading it yet. I should probably do that while I've got time. At the very least I'll need to control power when trains are on the bridge connecting tracks.
rtr12 posted:.....and IMO, the MTH terminal blocks are worth every penny. So is the #14 & #16 wire sold by OGR at their store here.
In my opinion, there are better barrier strips than the MTH. These(see below) are far more flexible and on this layout you could easily use 10 or more.
2 for main power(3?)
1 sub power(?) AIU's/SC-2's
4 accessory power
4 LED power
Only have time for this reply, will continue later.
Mark, I prefer grid-style myself, mostly because that's all I'm familiar with. I knew about varying elevations by staggering the grid sections, I just thought my layout was too small. Once I got on the Mianne kick, I kind of limited my thinking to tabletop and forgot about changing elevations for landscaping. I know Mianne can accommodate elevation changes, but they are still more oriented toward tabletop layouts. And the overhang issue has always been a concern. I'm sure they could customize lengths to accommodate my design, but that would probably add to the cost. If my benchwork design is basically valid, I think I can build that for a lot less than what Mianne would cost me and as shown, it can also look good.
Dave,
The Mianne benchwork is very nice! Easy to assemble and looks great. It is just way over my personal budget.
The swing up shelves is a good idea for his or anyone's grandson is a great idea. I don't think it would be too hard to do.
I have never used the MTH terminal strips, but have used the type AUBV showed for 40 years at work. Not putting down the MTH ones, just saying the black ones are very good.
Mark, I'm conflicted about Mianne. I didn't even really consider it until my wife saw it and suggested I get it, even after I told her the price, yet she gives me grief about the 4 engines I want to eventually buy.
I also think it is over the amount I want to spend. I'm not really that concerned about appearance because all but the front will be covered, at least below the fascia. I do like the added control I get by building my own. I just squared everything off for planning purposes, and I do like the idea of landscaping in the corners, but it can be rounded off and covered with a wraparound fascia. I don't have to tie the entrance to the center as a lake, it can just be a dam with bridges with the lake left to the imagination. The back doesn't have to continue the river theme, it can be a desert wash or even a deep canyon.
I've seen photos of the black strips and the ones from MTH. The MTH are geared toward their banana connectors and seem a bit pricey, but I really haven't looked into them yet. My eyes gloss over when I see the wiring for some of the layouts here.
I guess I still have some design work to think about.
DoubleDAZ posted:I've seen photos of the black strips and the ones from MTH. The MTH are geared toward their banana connectors and seem a bit pricey, but I really haven't looked into them yet. My eyes gloss over when I see the wiring for some of the layouts here.
I guess I still have some design work to think about.
My eyes gloss over when I see the wiring for some layouts here as well, and I have worked in Electronics for 40 years now. I started my first job in July 1976 right after graduating from college, but electricity has always been a job to me, and nothing I want to do when I get home from work. I like to follow the KISS principle when it comes to anything electrical.
Even after 40 years, the second 'S' which stands for 'Stupid' fits me like to a Tee!
Yes, I really wasn't thinking about the bridge on your layout. Pretty sure it could be accomadeted somehow though. Mianne will do some customizing for the regular price of your layout kit. They are pretty easy to work with on that type of stuff and offer good suggestions as well. I know you don't want to go in that deep, but I would love to have one of those lift gates they have (even though they are a little pricey for me too). 
I like the idea of the fold up/down shelf, but not having thought of that up front, the Mianne legs are a problem there. They split the sheets of plywood, or I should say the legs are measured center to center so I have a frame that is about 6'-2 to 2-1/2" wide. The other thing I goofed up was mounting the switch buttons on the top of the layout at the edge. Moving those to the fascia would probably satisfy my grandson. That would give him some vehicle room, probably about 3" or so as it sits now. I have been thinking about this too. I have learned that a big rectangle is not the ideal setup for a layout (kind of knew that going in though), but the plan all along was to expand and change it...just haven't gotten there yet.
If you have Barry's book, you're halfway there on the wiring. If you plan to have both Legacy/TMCC and DCS, wire for DCS. It is possibly a little more demanding, but not difficult at all and the book explains it well. Probably the one thing that improved my permanent layout (compared to all my temporary one prior) were adding blocks to each isolated loop. What a difference that made here. I really can't say that I have had any DCS related problems since then. I always thought my little temporary loops were too small to make a difference, but that wasn't the case. Also, as I said earlier, the OGR wire works great for DCS wiring and it is good wire too.
While AUBV's terminal strips may be cheaper and fine for some, I don't personally care for that type of terminal strip. I use the Euro style strips for wiring other than track power. They have a wire clamp built in and require no crimp connectors. It's the crimps that I really don't care for (I can't tell from the picture if the above strip need them ofr not?). Personally, I prefer the MTH terminal strips for track power and/or other things that require multiple power drops from a single source. Track power is the only place I have used them on my layout so far.
You don't have to use banana plugs with the MTH strips, those are actually my least favorite part about them, at least it was until I finally found some good banana plugs that would stay connected. I was just about ready to abandon the banana plugs for some type of solder connection before finding the ones I have now. I am not 100% sold on these, I question the banana plug's contact (or lack of contact) with the jack? The ones I found are doing ok for now.
I suppose this stuff is a lot like track or trains or other things, we develop our own preferences over the years, these are just mine. I don't want to say that one is better than the other, that is unless I am using it myself. 
Did someone say deep canyon?
Back to Bench work questions, a few more pictures might help.
The black "fence" in the prior picture is a series of knee walls. This is built using a bottom plate, up rights and a top plate. You can see more detail in these pictures.
These are not open grid layouts(for a number of reasons)
And where it is today, (still in process)
Having built open grid, L-bracket, glass(yes, glass suspended with Horse stirrups no less), among others. I find a "flat" table with negative elevations and grades to upper levels or fixed upper levels, the best way for me to build layouts. I wouldn't rule out open grid but think for most layouts it is a hinderance. This is only my opinion. I freely admit, I have lots of ideas and not all of them are good.
Regarding kids and grands kids, the table with the black knee walls has a lower external negative elevation, that has accessories and a small dock side switcher that runs a large loop. This is an ideal way for kids to enjoy accessories, etc. Not only because it is a lower elevation but also means they are not reaching across main lines, with active consists running. Corners of layouts are also good for this.
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RTR12, I'm sure Mianne would work with me, it's just a matter of cutting their stuff to the right lengths, etc. I know I've seen elevation changes, though they might be at a specific depth and I'd have to use risers to get the depth I'd want. No decision made yet. I think I've mentioned before that the layout over in Scottsdale has a custom metal lift gate very similar in style to the Mianne gate. It is a sweet thing indeed.
With regard to the grandson, hindsight is always a great thing. And about the time you fix him up, he'll outgrow the cars. I haven't even thought about mounting switch buttons or even the transformer.
I'm going all DCS with MTH engines, so I don't expect any problems if I follow the wiring guidelines in the book. I plan on converting all the lights in the Bedford Falls buildings to LED, but I don't know when I'll get to that. I don't intend to have any powered accessories, so it's just the trains, buildings and switches. I don't have any loops, so all I should need in the way of blocks are the bridges and the hidden siding, though I'll probably block the tracks between the bridge switches that go around the lake and past Bedford Falls up top. I really haven't given that much thought yet and will certainly ask questions.
I'm not a fan of crimped connectors either, have had too many come loose, so that's a good point. Are you talking about the strips were you insert the bare wire and then tighten the screw down?
I know you don't have to use banana connectors, just that the MTH block has the connectors for them if you want to use them. I haven't decided yet how I'm going to power the track, so deciding on strips will come in due time. I am a little concerned about soldering power drops to ScaleTrax, so I'll need to pay attention to the Black Diamond videos.
And I understand you are just offering ideas and I'm open to all those I can get. I think having 3 independent sets of tracks will make wiring easier that is they were all connected, so I'm not expecting it to cause any complications.
Mark, I have very little experience with electronics beyond hooking up my entertainment equipment, so I'll need help I'm sure. My motto will be to ask questions and take it slow.
DoubleDAZ posted:RTR12, I'm sure Mianne would work with me, it's just a matter of cutting their stuff to the right lengths, etc. I know I've seen elevation changes, though they might be at a specific depth and I'd have to use risers to get the depth I'd want. No decision made yet. I think I've mentioned before that the layout over in Scottsdale has a custom metal lift gate very similar in style to the Mianne gate. It is a sweet thing indeed.
With regard to the grandson, hindsight is always a great thing. And about the time you fix him up, he'll outgrow the cars.
I'm going all DCS with MTH engines, so I don't expect any problems if I follow the wiring guidelines in the book. I plan on converting all the lights in the Bedford Falls buildings to LED, but I don't know when I'll get to that. I don't intend to have any powered accessories, so it's just the trains, buildings and switches. I don't have any loops, so all I should need in the way of blocks are the bridges and the hidden siding, though I'll probably block the tracks between the bridge switches that go around the lake and past Bedford Falls up top. I really haven't given that much thought yet and will certainly ask questions.
I'm not a fan of crimped connectors either, have had too many come loose, so that's a good point. Are you talking about the strips were you insert the bare wire and then tighten the screw down?
I know you don't have to use banana connectors, just that the MTH block has the connectors for them if you want to use them. I haven't decided yet how I'm going to power the track, so deciding on strips will come in due time. I am a little concerned about soldering power drops to ScaleTrax, so I'll need to pay attention to the Black Diamond videos.
And I understand you are just offering ideas and I'm open to all those I can get. I think having 3 independent sets of tracks will make wiring easier that is they were all connected, so I'm not expecting it to cause any complications.
What about street lights in town?
The barriers strips do not require solderless wire connectors but offer far more flexibility. By way of example, one of those barriers strips, cutting/using the jumper, can provide local DC LED power from one source, AC power @ 12 volts and AC @ 16 volts. As to solderless wire connectors, the right tool(ratcheting crimping tool) and decent solderless connectors, will handle a wide range of different gauge wires and are far easier to accomplish good connections, than attempting to insert a wire into a hole upside down under a layout, that only offers a common, in something like this
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AUBV, how did I know you'd have a canyon shot to share? Your photos have been invaluable and I truly thank you for posting them and joining this thread. I just happy to have a photograph very much like your canyon that I took near Zion National Park several years ago and I've wanted to incorporate into a layout some day. Today might be the day.
I see I goofed a bit and need to rotate the base and rail for the knee wall.
When I said "open" grid, I didn't mean that they weren't, I simply meant that they were a grid within a frame as opposed to L-girder where this is no frame around the girders. Your pictures do provide a lot more detail and I like how you did that shelf. I made my Christmas layout out of covered grids of differing sizes similar to those in the photos. I'm convinced I need to do more with elevations. I'd love to have the main oval on one level, have the track going around the center dip to a lower level, have the canyon beneath that, etc. I need to do some testing to see what kind of grade I'd have from the turnout to the back of the lake to see if I could dip 3"-4" along the inside of the horseshoe.
I'm also going to see if I can redesign the inner oval to more closely match the main oval on the ends if I can rework the over/under part like I've mentioned. You've given me tons to think about, but I'm still concerned that my space is too small.
I also agree with you about using a series of flat tables at differing elevations. So many folks here prefer the open L-girder system and that has always been a deterrent for me. I get the use of risers and the openness for access, but I am much more comfortable working with tabletops.
And now it's time to take a break, make some popcorn and watch Lone Survivor before it gets too late. See you all tomorrow.
Excellent thread full of great info
Yeah, street lights. Trouble is I don't know what I'm going to have room for up there. Right now, it's not much more than a row of buildings fronted by dual train tracks. Of course, if I completely separate it from the level below, I can adjust the depth more, but at the moment, I'm trying not to cover up the over/under section of the inner track on the bottom level. That's why I'm so interested in the elevation changes, to get more separation so I can expand the shelf for the village. It's also why the main level right now is at a height of 34" and the top at 49".
The goal is to have the buildings fronted by a sidewalk and street, but the priority is the track. Once the room tiling is done, I'm going to use tape to outline the layout on the floor and put buildings in place to see how what I have in RR-Track works. Even with the 3D view, I'm not good at visualizing space requirements and I don't feel like creating scale objects in RR-Track to see what fits. I'd rather just wait until I can get some tape down to see what I've got. I know the bottom level will work, it's the top level that is questionable. I may need to go back to the loop-to-loop with only 1 track passing through the village to get enough room. If I do that though, I can only run 1 train, so I may as well just make is a simple oval with the bridge as a focal point along with the village. Dang, I just thought of the role the bridge plays in the movie. I honestly did not add it for that reason, I just thought it looked cool.
As for the strips, I need to get into the wiring before I can see what will work best for me. I have absolutely no experience whatsoever with strips, so it will be a learning experience. You certainly make a good case for those black ones, but I'll need to learn more about what's involved. I agree that a good crimping tool would certainly work better than the pliers I've used for crimping in the past and I do like the fact that they can be used for more than a strip offering only a common and trying to stick a wire in upside down. I'm already worried about wiring because my equilibrium laying on my back is not the best.
The upshot is I hope you'll be around when I have questions.
DoubleDAZ posted:The upshot is I hope you'll be around when I have questions.
I turn into a quahog at midnight.
Ok, I had to look that up. "Clam up", very funny.
BTW, are the uprights in the knee wall and the crossmembers in the grids 16" on center? In the photos, it looks like most are 16", but some look wider. I erroneously made mine 12" on my Christmas layout 3 years ago because it was covered with foam, no plywood. And while that worked out okay, I felt I could have stuck with 16", even with just the foam. Given that Mianne uses 24" and recommends 1/2" plywood, I'm thinking I can just space them equally within each section as long as I don't exceed 24" and cover the plywood joints.
While I understand the 16" standard for building houses, train layout dimensions have always confused me. If you look at my design, you can see that the sections with the bump-outs are 54"x72" and the ends of the bump-outs don't match up nicely with 16" centers, one is at 18" and the other at 54". So, do I change the layout so they match up or do I deal with crossmembers close together? In this case, they'd be at 16-18-32-48-54-64-72. Or could I space them at 18-36-54-72 and just make sure I account for any plywood joints?
To further muddy the waters, I've enclosed a rendering showing the sections (in Red) that I might lower 4", though tracks would only get lowered 3". If I do this, I'd reverse the over/under tracks. If I lower the main track to the right of the lake by 3", it will result in a 3.5% grade from there to the red line back toward the bridge. I would then lower the section under that and the over/under part to make room for the wash/river/canyon/whatever. I would also give up the faux lake cover with snaps for the center (which I might do anyway).
Am I nuts?
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Zion NP -Walters wiggles, YIKES!
Thought these might give you some additional ideas.
Things to note, location of negative elevation runs across table under the lift bridges, second level plywood base.
Second level plywood base with scenery in process. The negative elevation is to the right.
negative elevation opposite the lift bridges, the mountain is to the right.
I build a table to the track plan. This includes figuring out where a negative elevation belongs based on need like bridges. Scenery is then adapted. If you think about real world RR's they lay track and contour the the land, build structures, etc based on need. Model trains like flat surfaces and there are enough problems trying to make trains run using this MFG's track, another operating system let alone different engine MFG's
Layouts are very fluid and lots of changes happen during the process. Provided the basic foundation is built well, a lot can be changed. I don't have to worry about this going there and that going here. No matter how much I look at a plan and think about ideas, I always see things during the process that I just never see on paper.
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Mark Boyce posted:My eyes gloss over when I see the wiring for some layouts here as well, and I have worked in Electronics for 40 years now. I started my first job in July 1976 right after graduating from college, but electricity has always been a job to me, and nothing I want to do when I get home from work.
Even after 40 years, the second 'S' which stands for 'Stupid' fits me like to a Tee!
Amen, brother! Like you I too was in electronics 40+ years, paid well but am burnt out. Would rather buy designed electrical stuff off shelf for layout and get back to running trains and scenery, rather than drudgery of design/build/debug/modify cycle. My wiring is OK everything labeled but "it ain't like the pros here".
Oh, and to original poster, I like your layout design. Sorry to have butted in here with my electronic non-sequitur.
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Gotta love a photo like that RRMAN. And there's no such thing as butting in. I enjoy all comments and learn something from almost all of them. And if I get a chuckle, all the better.
DoubleDAZ posted:Ok, I had to look that up. "Clam up", very funny.
BTW, are the uprights in the knee wall and the crossmembers in the grids 16" on center? In the photos, it looks like most are 16", but some look wider. I erroneously made mine 12" on my Christmas layout 3 years ago because it was covered with foam, no plywood. And while that worked out okay, I felt I could have stuck with 16", even with just the foam. Given that Mianne uses 24" and recommends 1/2" plywood, I'm thinking I can just space them equally within each section as long as I don't exceed 24" and cover the plywood joints.
While I understand the 16" standard for building houses, train layout dimensions have always confused me. If you look at my design, you can see that the sections with the bump-outs are 54"x72" and the ends of the bump-outs don't match up nicely with 16" centers, one is at 18" and the other at 54". So, do I change the layout so they match up or do I deal with crossmembers close together? In this case, they'd be at 16-18-32-48-54-64-72. Or could I space them at 18-36-54-72 and just make sure I account for any plywood joints?
To further muddy the waters, I've enclosed a rendering showing the sections (in Red) that I might lower 4", though tracks would only get lowered 3". If I do this, I'd reverse the over/under tracks. If I lower the main track to the right of the lake by 3", it will result in a 3.5% grade from there to the red line back toward the bridge. I would then lower the section under that and the over/under part to make room for the wash/river/canyon/whatever. I would also give up the faux lake cover with snaps for the center (which I might do anyway).
Am I nuts?
Yes, 16" centers but as you noted, the front left has an access opening. This portion of the table has 3@24"(actual opening). (Black knee wall picture)
2x3" can be used, if you can buy decent untwisted ones.
The support for the plywood, that run across and rest on the top plate of the knee wall,are joists, I build 16"oc. There are always places where that number will increase or decreased depending on the layout. They are attached to a rim joist that becomes the fascia, be it painted or mahogany, etc as shown in the photo that accompanied, my innocent question about negative elevations.
If you decide to use this method, the knee walls in your plan(top, bottom and right should be pushed to the walls.
I have to look at your plan much more closely to answer, some of your other questions.
aubv posted:
Yikes is right. We haven't actually been to the park yet, just drove around the area one day while visiting the North Rim and driving past on our way to Bryce. We were going back this year, but decided to take an August road trip to Nova Scotia and Maine instead. Maybe next year on the way to/from Washington and Montana when we plan to take a cruise to Alaska.
My goal is a good foundation and I think I'm finally getting there. Like I said, I prefer working with covered grids like yours and you've certainly pointed me in a direction I've wanted to go, I just couldn't see it. I don't have much trouble designing the track runs, but I have a lot of problems envisioning elevations and scenery on a small scale like mine. While I want to display the BF stuff, my priority is building a nice bottom level that makes some sense. The top BF level doesn't have to tie in with rest, but it'd be nice if it could to some degree. Right now I simply can't "see" the landscaping up to it.
The top photo shows what I'd like, but I don't think I have the space for that kind of landscaping. That's why I'm considering expanding the loops of the over/under to more closely mirror the main run and give me more area for landscaping up to the BF level. The other photo shows what I'd like to see below the bridges at the entrance. I've just never done any landscaping, so it's hard for me to see it until I get some benchwork built and track laid.
I do get what you mean about real railroads contouring the land to fit their needs. I see that all the time between Tucson and El Paso with the tracks that run though southern Arizona and across New Mexico. In fact, that is the exact look I'm after with the bottom level. The over/under and main run will be desert scenery and the bridge/river idea comes from the bridges across the Rio Grande in El Paso. The BF level comes from Flagstaff or Summerhaven on Mount Lemmon near Tucson, take your pick.
aubv posted:Yes, 16" centers but as you noted, the front left has an access opening. This portion of the table has 3. (Black knee wall picture)
2x3" can be used, if you can buy decent untwisted ones.
The support for the plywood, that run across and rest on the top plate of the knee wall,are joists, I build 16"oc. There are always places where that number will increase or decreased depending on the layout. They are attached to a rim joist that becomes the fascia, be it painted or mahogany, etc as shown in the photo that accompanied, my innocent question about negative elevations.
If you decide to use this method, the knee walls in your plan(top, bottom and right should be pushed to the walls.
Thanks for the additional information. I do plan on building the knee wall and will push them against the walls like you suggest, not sure why I didn't notice that in your photo.
I took a closer look and now see that there aren't crossmembers/braces between all the joists. They are only along the back wall and across the front, so I can't help wondering why. My grid was 12" squares throughout and very busy/congested as a result. Is it based on the size of the sheet of plywood that will cover the area? I can see where a 4'x8' sheet doesn't need as much support as say a 2'x6' piece. If it is, that's how I wish I had done my Christmas benchwork.
DoubleDAZ posted:RTR12, I'm sure Mianne would work with me, it's just a matter of cutting their stuff to the right lengths, etc. I know I've seen elevation changes, though they might be at a specific depth and I'd have to use risers to get the depth I'd want. No decision made yet. I think I've mentioned before that the layout over in Scottsdale has a custom metal lift gate very similar in style to the Mianne gate. It is a sweet thing indeed.
With regard to the grandson, hindsight is always a great thing. And about the time you fix him up, he'll outgrow the cars.
I'm going all DCS with MTH engines, so I don't expect any problems if I follow the wiring guidelines in the book. I plan on converting all the lights in the Bedford Falls buildings to LED, but I don't know when I'll get to that. I don't intend to have any powered accessories, so it's just the trains, buildings and switches. I don't have any loops, so all I should need in the way of blocks are the bridges and the hidden siding, though I'll probably block the tracks between the bridge switches that go around the lake and past Bedford Falls up top. I really haven't given that much thought yet and will certainly ask questions.
I'm not a fan of crimped connectors either, have had too many come loose, so that's a good point. Are you talking about the strips were you insert the bare wire and then tighten the screw down?
I know you don't have to use banana connectors, just that the MTH block has the connectors for them if you want to use them. I haven't decided yet how I'm going to power the track, so deciding on strips will come in due time. I am a little concerned about soldering power drops to ScaleTrax, so I'll need to pay attention to the Black Diamond videos.
And I understand you are just offering ideas and I'm open to all those I can get. I think having 3 independent sets of tracks will make wiring easier that is they were all connected, so I'm not expecting it to cause any complications.
I really like the gates too. I would really like to incorporate one on my expansion plans. That is if I ever get anything finalized in that department. Seems like no matter what space one has it is never 'just right'. 
I know about the out growing stuff. I ordered a Lionel Legacy gantry crane, must be over a year now, and I am just hoping it arrives while he still wants to play with it. I am normally not in a hurry for any train items I order, but when you have a growing grandson it is a bit different. He has liked construction equipment all his life, I am hoping he doesn't change his mind now.
Most of my fleet is MTH as well. I have had very few problems with them or with DCS after following Barry's wiring guidelines. IMO, MTH has much more variety in selection than the other folks. I waited on Lionel for several years before they made something I wanted and I added Legacy at that time. MTH, OTOH, seems to have my number with each new catalog. LED's are a good idea. The strips on ebay are cheap and easy. Soldering wire to them is pretty easy, but they also make mechanical connectors for them if you don't want to solder. Wiring is not that bad, I actually like the electrical/electronics end of the hobby about as much as I do the trains. Also, lots of good help here if you ever get stuck. Wiring Your Toy Train Layout by Peter Riddle is a good book that covers just about everything you will need for a layout. It was an easy read and very understandable (for me anyway), some of these technical books are not easy to read due to writing style.
As for the crimps, they are probably fine if done properly, but most folks won't spend the money for the correct tools and most are not done properly. I spent a part of my working life chasing down and trying to fix poor crimps made by others. The others making the crimps were professianal trades people so it can happen to anyone. IMO, they are not needed with the other type terminal strips and are just added work, expense and one more place for problems. The terminal strips (Euro style) AUBV shows in his later post are what I use for many things other than track power. They are the type that clamps down on the wire as you tighten the terminal screw. Inexpensive from ebay or Amazon, can be cut to length and still retain their mounting holes. They are available for different wire sizes.
I am not at all familiar with Scaletrax other than I know it's solid nickle-silver rail. Don't forget about Ingeniero No 1's (Alex's) method of connectiong power to his Atlas track, that might just work on Scaletrax too? Since I read his build thread long before powering my track permanently, I have never tried soldering to my Atlas track. From what others have said here you need a big soldering gun that heats up fast, like the Weller dual watt, high wattage soldering guns.
Yes, mine are just suggestions and sometimes somewhat opinionated. I think we get that way with age. In general, just don't want to offend anyone when opinions differ (as in terminal strips). A lot of this hobby related stuff really is a personal choice and what is good for one may only be good for that one. Kind of like when someone asks which track is the best? One can only answer what is best for them.
rrman posted:Mark Boyce posted:My eyes gloss over when I see the wiring for some layouts here as well, and I have worked in Electronics for 40 years now. I started my first job in July 1976 right after graduating from college, but electricity has always been a job to me, and nothing I want to do when I get home from work.
Even after 40 years, the second 'S' which stands for 'Stupid' fits me like to a Tee!
Amen, brother! Like you I too was in electronics 40+ years, paid well but am burnt out. Would rather buy designed electrical stuff off shelf for layout and get back to running trains and scenery, rather than drudgery of design/build/debug/modify cycle. My wiring is OK everything labeled but "it ain't like the pros here".
Oh, and to original poster, I like your layout design. Sorry to have butted in here with my electronic non-sequitur.
This is great, that's my kind of wiring!
Did you by chance take this photo around Christmas time, in Clark Griswold's garage?
Another observation and an idea,
The two MTH bridges(60") need to be changed, due to interference issues with the switches. One MTH bridge and two extensions would be 50". I would resist using the atlas truss bridge, it is visually to big.
Looking at the upper, level try this. On the south reversing loop, move the switch before the bridge, one curve clockwise. The bridge will rotate 30°. On the upper reversing loop change the switch into the bridge, from a left hand to a right hand an move it to the curved track at the 4 o'clock position. Save that as a revision and then eliminate to north reversing loop. This can be done the opposite way and might be worth doing it also.
One other change to look, after rotating the bridge, leave the north reversing loop and eliminate the south reversing loop.
RTR12, I don't remember when I stopped playing with toy cars and construction equipment. I was probably a little later than most because the lumberyard just down the street had an area where they kept a large pile of sand that was a lot of fun to play in.
I don't know what it is about MTH, I just like what they offer and I think it's worthwhile for me to stick with one MFG and system. ScaleTrax has a much lower profile than Atlas and I don't think Ingeniero's solderless system will work, but who knows using different size screws, etc. I just have one of those little pencil 15/30 soldering irons and it probably isn't good enough to solder feeders and track, but I will pay attention to how it was done in the Black Diamond video and go from there. It seems to me that rail joiners with feeders attached should work as long as the tracks aren't constantly separated, etc., though I suppose that depends some on how many joints there are. I'm mostly concerned about the FlexTrack joints.
I assume all suggestions are somewhat opinionated. The fact that so many do things so differently is why I get confused about benchwork, clearances, etc. Wiring a large layout is quite a bit different than a small one, but the basics should hold true to a degree. I can see the simplicity of the Euro strips when that's all that's need, so I believe they have their place. However, I can also see the versatility of the black strips. If I understand things correctly, it does seem more efficient to use strips that can connect different sources and distribute them. I don't want to have a set of strips to distribute track power, another for LED lighting, another for accessories (though I'll have none), yet another for switches, etc. Heck, I've seen photos of layouts where the wiring was just strung to/from screws located throughout the layout. One thing I know for sure it that I'll need some help once I get to that point.
aubv posted:
This looks nice and I like the looks of it. The whole room looks very nice as well and I like the look of it too. Got any bigger pictures? Do you know the size of the layout?
DoubleDAZ posted:RTR12, I don't remember when I stopped playing with toy cars and construction equipment. I was probably a little later than most because the lumberyard just down the street had an area where they kept a large pile of sand that was a lot of fun to play in.
I don't know what it is about MTH, I just like what they offer and I think it's worthwhile for me to stick with one MFG and system. ScaleTrax has a much lower profile than Atlas and I don't think Ingeniero's solderless system will work, but who knows using different size screws, etc. I just have one of those little pencil 15/30 soldering irons and it probably isn't good enough to solder feeders and track, but I will pay attention to how it was done in the Black Diamond video and go from there. It seems to me that rail joiners with feeders attached should work as long as the tracks aren't constantly separated, etc., though I suppose that depends some on how many joints there are. I'm mostly concerned about the FlexTrack joints.
I assume all suggestions are somewhat opinionated.
Grandson still likes these things too, but he has also discovered video games and xboxes and all that stuff. When he was 3 or 4 I used to take him for walks, he lived in a new area still under development. He would see some construction equipment working and just sit down in the grass and watch it until I would finally tell him time to go. I often wondered how long he would have watched if I hadn't gotten him up? He is not quite that interested anymore.
I like both Mfgr's and both DCS and Legacy (I don't have much Atlas stuff, other than track), but MTH definitely makes the most stuff to my tastes and road names. I have only seen one piece of Scaletrax, a switch in a recently offered Premier gondola car and it was still in the box. The pencil iron probably won't be enough, at least from what they say around here anyway. I have only a Hakko soldering iron, I don't have one of the large guns either, would probably burn myself. I started off thinking about using the Atlas rail joiners with feeders and was going to make my own before Alex's thread. That changed it for all me. I should get those Black Diamond videos, might be interesting to watch, everyone says they are very good. Been thinking abut getting some more TM Books videos this year too.
I like RRMAN's wiring pictures, that's a masterpiece!
AUBV, in case it has caused some confusion, the design was done in RR-Track, so the grid is 12". Therefore, the distance between the edges of the layout on the bottom is 30", so shouldn't the 30" bridge fit without the extensions?
The upper bridge is a little different, but the distance between the pylons closest to the entrance is also around 30", depending on exactly where I place them, so it should also fit without extensions. Interestingly, the distance between the switches happens to be around 60", so I suspect I could use the bridge with extensions if I modify the extensions to make sure the engines clear them on the turnout rail.
BTW, the design of the sub-roadbed for the upper level is misleading because it was drawn before the switches were added. Back then, the level was a loop-to-loop, but I changed it to a dog bone when I added the switches for the bridge. I may go back to a loop-to-loop though to make room for a street and street lights. I also just noticed that I have a 5" section by the switch that can probably come out if I keep the dog bone.
I also had the upper bridge on an angle at one point, but I wanted to keep the effect of it reversing through the village.
Am I missing something?
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