AMT trains

They made an F unit that could pull stumps (large Pittman motor and durable traction tires, add another motor and you can really pull) - the shell is still in production through Williams/Bachmann. They beat Lionel to the punch with O gauge sized (approx. 15") streamlined metal passenger cars (sand cast smooth side for a few years, and then corrugated aluminum cars including baggage/RPO/combine/coach/diner/sleeper/vista dome/observation models, were first in O gauge with a RDC car (smaller than the model Lionel eventually came out with, but with far more accurate trucks), and they came out with an almost full O scale boxcar before Lionel's 6464 series started production. They also produced a reefer, depressed center flatcar, high side gondola, stock car and a C&O style caboose - they live on at Williams/Bachmann (and clones of the boxcar are made by Menards) - the RDC dies haven't turned up. Kusan/LMT in Franklin (suburb of Nashville), TN bought the line towards the end of 1954 and production moved south. A number of freight cars they made are extremely hard to find - tougher than 6464s like the orange 6464-100 WP to locate. If you like postwar trains and want some variety AMT adds variety to your collection. TCA has some history and pictures here:

http://www.tcawestern.org/amt.htm

The RDC shown has passenger car trucks, not the correct RDC sideframes (there were unpowered RDCs put together that used passenger car trucks - that's what's shown in the picture). In the pictures at the link I have all the O gauge models shown except the yellow C&O caboose (a super tough model to find), and the CN boxcar (not too hard to find); I also don't have any of the HO passenger cars AMT made. The Silver Streak F unit exists in a handful or two quantity and is an expensive purchase once you track one down. The Reading passenger car is not AMT or KMT/Kusan production - someone made up Reading plates and added them to a passenger car.

   They are heavy if I recall right. For sure didn't roll extremely well; old school axles, we never pulled a long train, maybe 8? Old Lionel rolls easier.

Not extremely detailed, but some of the most memorable cars I've ever laid eyes on if the extruded one are polished up. AMT Auburn KMT Kris Kusan were my Great Grandfather's choice. I would have ran the wheels off them if Gramps had let me. I always think about a set when my wallet itches.

Adriatic posted:

   They are heavy if I recall right. For sure didn't roll extremely well; old school axles, we never pulled a long train, maybe 8? Old Lionel rolls easier.

Not extremely detailed, but some of the most memorable cars I've ever laid eyes on if the extruded one are polished up. AMT Auburn KMT Kris Kusan were my Great Grandfather's choice. I would have ran the wheels off them if Gramps had let me. I always think about a set when my wallet itches.

You can swap out the AMT wheels which don't roll too smoothly and swap in modern fast angle wheels in their place. The cars roll much better with the modern wheels - I did that to my strings of Santa Fe and NYC passenger cars and it made a noticeable improvement in how far they roll with a nudge.

I like AMT product. I am most familiar with their freight cars. To me they have the right heavyweight look, and it does not take too many cars to load up an engine. But that means that if you are used to lightweight, free rolling modern era cars, you probably will not like the AMT ones. They do not roll as freely as  postwar Lionel.

I have a couple of AMT diesel waiting to be checked out so I can run them.... no experence here.   I like the way they look. One has a slight warp to the body. I am told that this is common.

I also have several AMT Budd cars. They run much slower than the postwar Lionel ones. On mine the bodies are very difficult to remove for service. Probably a warpage issue. The bodies of these Budd cars have a thin strip of plastic sticking down in all four corners. Almost every Budd car I've seen has at least one broken off. I don't think any of mine have all four.

Have a bunch of spare motors. The are heavy duty, 5 or 7 pole motor (I forget which, need to look at one). I think I was told that they are Pittman, but I am not positive. Someday I will find a use for them.

In my experience, AMT parts are hard to come by and can be expensive. Something to consider if you are going to start buying any.

The RDC motor is prone to armature windings snapping/breaking because the wire is so fine - don't run them over 15 or 16 volts. You'll need a rewind if you have a dead armature - I've never seen any spares available. The bracket assembly that holds the motor in place isn't conducive to disassembly. AMT RDC shells are clear palstic with windows filled in - the windows were masked off, and then the shells were painted, while Kusan shells I've had are a tuscan colored plastic with the windows opened up through a die modification - a silhouette strip covers the window openings. I have a couple clear AMT shells my dad bought at a hobby shop near Ft. Wayne, IN for 75 cents a pop - I made a "demo" RDC like the Lionel clear shell Santa Fe F units from the late 40s.

The F unit motor is a heavy duty beast and can be run over 20 volts (KMT's 190 watt transformer puts out 24 volts). The warped/hump shells are AMT production - it's  similar to the early Lionel FAs the that have humps. KMT shells used a turquoise colored plastic that doesn't hump. Dual motored AMT F units will pull a tremendous load if your transformer can handle high amp draw. As mentioned, parts are scarce - you have to scrounge for them. Parts dealers may not know they have if they stumble onto parts - you may have to resort to cannibalizing beaters. If you like a challenge AMT is right up your alley - much of it is reasonably priced and looks good running with Lionel postwar items.

"The F unit...it's  similar to the early Lionel FAs the that have humps."

The Kusan F-unit, an EMD F-7, was essentially 1:48, as it remained under Williams, sans hump; the Kusan FA-2 was a sub-scale Alco (and that body continued under K-Line). Two different prototypes/models.

I was not aware of a Lionel FA "humping" problem, but I'm not a PW expert.  

Set of KMT F7's:

It's been a long time since I've ran them, or even seen them for that matter. Oh, wait, just found them...

For some reason I remember it as being a single motor, but could be wrong. I do know that it pulls every bit as well as a Lionel 2343. A very well designed drive system for its age.

For awhile I was very interested in AMT/KMT and Colber. My hobby has progressed from collectiong to model building, so most of my postwar stuff is just displayed now. Acquiring these engines was fun. Seem to be very hard to find.

The issue I have with the F7 AMT/WbB units is the very funky nose shape and uneven front window shape. Saying that I have five of them due to their cost!

Those are the snazzy KMT/Kusan version of the Santa Fe F units; the paint job is more accurate than the AMT version (dark blue as opposed to the medium blue shells from AMT, and the striping is done better as well). The boxes behind the F units are from AMT/Auburn - KMT F unit boxes are black with white and red printing and illustrations.

MTN: Do you know whether AMT motors were made by Pittman?

AMCDave posted:

The issue I have with the F7 AMT/WbB units is the very funky nose shape and uneven front window shape. Saying that I have five of them due to their cost!

The AMT shell isn't nearly as accurate as Lionel's F unit (although the Lionel shells went the other direction with their squinty "inhaled some sort of herb" window openings). That said, the hunt for AMT and KMT F units is quite challenging, and they make a neat conversation piece if you play show and tell and pop the shell to see the big ol' motor and peculiar looking reverse unit.

C W Burfle posted:

MTN: Do you know whether AMT motors were made by Pittman?

I've always been led to believe the motors are Pittman - the RDC motor is just like one used in the Pittman (now Bowser) trolley, although I don't know if Bowser used the same motor after they took over production. They're not K&D motors, and the brush assemblies on the F unit and RDC have similarities (the F unit motor is a far superior assembly).

D500 posted:

"The F unit...it's  similar to the early Lionel FAs the that have humps."

The Kusan F-unit, an EMD F-7, was essentially 1:48, as it remained under Williams, sans hump; the Kusan FA-2 was a sub-scale Alco (and that body continued under K-Line). Two different prototypes/models.

I was not aware of a Lionel FA "humping" problem, but I'm not a PW expert.  

Some of the early production Lionel UP Alco FAs (the diecast frame variety) have a slight hump - there's speculation that the shells with humps may have been caused by pulling the shell too soon from the molds. The AMT F unit shell has a more prominent hump - that's one way to distinguish AMT shells from later KMT F unit shells. The KMT shells are turquoise plastic, the AMT are clear; other identifiers for KMT made F units include more precise/accurate paint jobs, and a KMT logo is painted at the back of the shell.

Here's a link to a thread I posted awhile back concerning an AMT NYC F unit that I revived - there's snaps of the dual motor job I performed many moons ago. I've found that just powering one axle and removing the small gears that go to the other axle assembly results in better performance - I think the gears add a lot of extra friction that doesn't add much to the lugging capability.    https://ogrforum.com/...nit-flea-market-find

I know the AMT here used Pittman. but I don't know if it was exclusively or even adaption. I do recall a huge rectifiers heat sink in one, never saw the others open though.

I recall early Williams was very similar to the AMTs inside. Gramps did some testing on a permanently coulpled ABBA when Williams was deciding on motors. They sent the engine back to him a few years later. A 2 man job to rail it.

So... just to get clear in my own mind.... When you put fast angle wheels on an AMT aluminum passenger car, you drive out the Lionel axles and put the Lionel wheels on the AMT axles, right?

How does that make the AMT cars freer rolling?

Adriatic posted:

I know the AMT here used Pittman. but I don't know if it was exclusively or even adaption. I do recall a huge rectifiers heat sink in one, never saw the others open though.

All of my AMT Budd cars have reversing units, no rectifiers. My AMT diesel also has a reversing unit, as does my KMT diesel. The AMT/KMT reversing units remind me of the ones Lionel used in their OO engines.

C W Burfle posted:

Adriatic posted:

I know the AMT here used Pittman. but I don't know if it was exclusively or even adaption. I do recall a huge rectifiers heat sink in one, never saw the others open though.

All of my AMT Budd cars have reversing units, no rectifiers. My AMT diesel also has a reversing unit, as does my KMT diesel. The AMT/KMT reversing units remind me of the ones Lionel used in their OO engines.

No rectifiers in any AMT/KMT F units or RDCs I've owned or currently own; I have 14 F units and 7 RDCs in AMT and KMT variations, and they all came with the AMT reverse. 

RoyBoy posted:

So... just to get clear in my own mind.... When you put fast angle wheels on an AMT aluminum passenger car, you drive out the Lionel axles and put the Lionel wheels on the AMT axles, right?

How does that make the AMT cars freer rolling?

Either buy fast angle wheels from Lionel or strip cheap MPC or K-Line cars of their wheels by tapping the axles out with a punch. The AMT wheels combined with the AMT axles have a lot of drag (I've tried graphite powder, teflon oil, Marvel Mystery Oil as lubricant - those AMT wheels just don't roll well). The fast angle wheels on the AMT axles spin better. I've converted 2 full strings of AMT aluminum cars to fast angle wheels and could pull longer trains at lower voltage than the stock AMT wheel/axle combination cars.

The Yahoo AMT - KMT - Kusan group has a lot of pictures of the trains produced from dies from Jack Ferris' Indiana based train company to the move to Tennessee AMT production, as well as the K-Series 0-27 line of Kusan designed trains and onto Kris and Williams production - well worth joining up if you're interested in these trains.

MTN posted:

RoyBoy posted:

So... just to get clear in my own mind.... When you put fast angle wheels on an AMT aluminum passenger car, you drive out the Lionel axles and put the Lionel wheels on the AMT axles, right?

How does that make the AMT cars freer rolling?

Either buy fast angle wheels from Lionel or strip cheap MPC or K-Line cars of their wheels by tapping the axles out with a punch. The AMT wheels combined with the AMT axles have a lot of drag (I've tried graphite powder, teflon oil, Marvel Mystery Oil as lubricant - those AMT wheels just don't roll well). The fast angle wheels on the AMT axles spin better. I've converted 2 full strings of AMT aluminum cars to fast angle wheels and could pull longer trains at lower voltage than the stock AMT wheel/axle combination cars.

OK. Thanks. I did that on one car, but the wheels I used seemed too loose a fit on the AMT axles. They seemed to wobble and flop. Guess I will try again.

RoyBoy posted:

MTN posted:

RoyBoy posted:

So... just to get clear in my own mind.... When you put fast angle wheels on an AMT aluminum passenger car, you drive out the Lionel axles and put the Lionel wheels on the AMT axles, right?

How does that make the AMT cars freer rolling?

Either buy fast angle wheels from Lionel or strip cheap MPC or K-Line cars of their wheels by tapping the axles out with a punch. The AMT wheels combined with the AMT axles have a lot of drag (I've tried graphite powder, teflon oil, Marvel Mystery Oil as lubricant - those AMT wheels just don't roll well). The fast angle wheels on the AMT axles spin better. I've converted 2 full strings of AMT aluminum cars to fast angle wheels and could pull longer trains at lower voltage than the stock AMT wheel/axle combination cars.

OK. Thanks. I did that on one car, but the wheels I used seemed too loose a fit on the AMT axles. They seemed to wobble and flop. Guess I will try again.

Try a small washer or two if you see wobble - when you run AMT you need to get creative... 

Attached are scans of each of the four pages of the 1951 American Model Toys (AMT) Passenger Car Foldout Catalog.  Pages 2 and 3 form a centerfold.  

Shown on the centerfold pages are drawings of the 8 different car models that were made.  At that time the cars were only offered in Santa Fe and New York Central road names, the only two F-3 diesels Lionel had cataloged by then.  Note the wording on the top line across the centerfold: "Here are the Sensational NEW STREAMLINERS you've demanded!" an obvious reference to Lionel's lack of producing such cars to go with their diesels!  Lionel responded to the challenge by coming out with their own streamlined aluminum cars the following year.

Bill

Before the corrugated streamliners appeared, AMT initially produced sandcast smoothside cars painted for Pennsy and New York Central in the late 40s. These are tough to find, and are frequently in less than ideal condition (the lettering hasn't held up well on almost all the cars I've seen). There were only a couple car types, unlike the corrugated cars seen in the flyer above. From an earlier thread, there are some scans I made of a promo flyer AMT produced advertising their smoothside cars:

https://ogrforum.com/...ly=11848460533156542

Here's more background info on AMT.  Supplementing the 1951 AMT Passenger Car Catalog previously scanned and posted, attached are scans of each page of the 1953 AMT 6-page full-line Foldout Catalog.  Pages 2, 3 & 4 form a "centerfold".

By 1953 the line had expanded to include F-7 Diesel Engines, a Budd RDC, 40’ box cars in 12 different road names, 2 refrigerator cars, 3 stock cars and one gondola, one flat car and one caboose.

The Diesels were shown as powered A, dummy B and dummy A units in Santa Fe and New Central to pull the previously released SF & NYC passenger cars plus Pennsylvania and Southern road names.  Accordingly Pennsy and Southern passenger cars were added to match those new diesels.  Per info provided by member MTN the B units were not made.  They also cataloged track including an uncoupling track.  However no transformer was cataloged.  Note also that although the company initials remained the same, the name was changed to Auburn Model Trains as they were located in Auburn, Indiana.

However, by this time Lionel had come out with their own 15" streamlined aluminum passenger cars.

They also cataloged Passenger Cars in HO scale which were available only in kits.

Yunz guys from the 'burg will recognize the name of the hobby shop stamped on the front cover.  It's still in business but no longer owned by Bill or Walt nor in that downtown location but in White Oak near McKeesport. 

Bill

AMT/Auburn and later KMT/Kusan never produced a B unit - Williams finally tooled one up after they became custodians of the AMT tooling. The passenger scheme red/silver Santa Fe F unit illustrated above was never produced, but there were tiny production runs of B&O Fs, as well as the fictional Silver Streak (shades of American Flyer with the Streak model) - those are pricey devils to pick up. AMT/Auburn also produced C&NW, Pennsylvania tuscan, New York Central lightning stripe, Southern and MKT/Frisco Texas Special F units as well before the tooling was sold to Kusan in Franklin, Tennessee.

MTN posted:

AMT/Auburn and later KMT/Kusan never produced a B unit - Williams finally tooled one up after they became custodians of the AMT tooling. The passenger scheme red/silver Santa Fe F unit illustrated above was never produced, but there were tiny production runs of B&O Fs, as well as the fictional Silver Streak (shades of American Flyer with the Streak model) - those are pricey devils to pick up. AMT/Auburn also produced C&NW and MKT/Frisco Texas Special F units as well before the tooling was sold to Kusan in Franklin, Tennessee.

MTN:

Thanks for catching that the AMT B-units were not made although they were in the catalog.  I do now remember reading that in an earlier posting on this subject somewhere!  I changed my post accordingly.  Re the color of the Santa Fe units, the colors are really not apparent as they show as grey and white in the drawing in this catalog.  I was aware that they only made them in the blue & yellow "freight" colors.  I should have mentioned that since most readers would assume they were red & silver like Lionel's post-war F-units.

Bill 

The RDC shown has passenger car trucks, not the correct RDC sideframes (there were unpowered RDCs put together that used passenger car trucks - that's what's shown in the picture).

Were those dummy AMT / KMT Budd cars with passenger trucks put together by the factory, or customers?
I was under the impression that no dummies were made.
The one pictured on the TCAWESTERN web site does not appear to have any couplers. |
I don't think any of my Budd cars had rear couples when I purchased them. Although some were missing the rear cow catcher.

C W Burfle posted:

The RDC shown has passenger car trucks, not the correct RDC sideframes (there were unpowered RDCs put together that used passenger car trucks - that's what's shown in the picture).

Were those dummy AMT / KMT Budd cars with passenger trucks put together by the factory, or customers?
I was under the impression that no dummies were made.
The one pictured on the TCAWESTERN web site does not appear to have any couplers. |
I don't think any of my Budd cars had rear couples when I purchased them. Although some were missing the rear cow catcher.

There's a set pictured in the color KMT catalog showing a 3 car RDC  set - I think that the unpowered cars were on passenger car trucks.  The pilots would have to be removed so couplers could be installed. I'd think it's safe to assume that folks outside the factory assembled RDCs with passenger car trucks after the parts got dumped. There's a flyer that KMT put out listing items at fire sale prices - too bad Madison Hardware didn't clean KMT out before the final leftovers were sent to a landfill. I'm at work so I don't have access to my catalog - perhaps someone here could look it up and see what that 3 car RDC is riding on.