Amtrak to stop operating special trains and charter moves!

This is not good. 

wonder what effect it will have on private Varnish.

CSX FAN posted:

wonder what effect it will have on private Varnish.

Sounds like their owners can put them up on blocks.  "Otherwise, one-time trips and charters are immediately discontinued" sounds like out of position cars can't even return to their home bases.

this is really sad, imo.

I think Amtrak is right here, but they are doing this in a hard handed way.

1.  They should have given more time for those involved to adjust.

2.  They might have gotten the stakeholders together to see if there could be some solutions up to and including cost/fee/fare increases.

3.  With the new CAF baggage and diners, the only heritage car Amtrak has left is the one full dome.

To me, the costs of these event tickets are to the point that the common person can no longer go.

And for those places that just depend on tourist traffic:  diversity your economic base!

I'm glad Margie and I rode the Milwaukee Road Super Dome and Skytop observation car on the rear of the Empire Builder a couple of years ago.  We won't have a chance to repeat it in the future.

Amtrak should be supporting historic passenger car service.This is not good news for the"Friends of the 261". They relied on sending their beautiful passenger cars on the end of Amtrak runs for a big part of their revenue to keep the 261 steam engine going. Very sad it looks like those days are over,unless Amtrak realizes they are making a big mistake.

Who at AMTRAK makes this policy? Is one person responsible?

This is not a good change in policy but if you have a private charter why can't you just ask CSX, NS or UP to supply the engine or just buy one?  The only extra thing that they may need is a generator car. There are numerous tourist railroads in the USA that run their own trains pulled by their own engine like the Royal Gorge Route (that runs on UP track).  We've traveled on dozens of them.  As for private varnish, they will probably have to form a cooperative to make up an entire train then buy or rent their own engine. The very rich can just buy an entire train like the guy who owns the PRR train set with the E8 engines.

Could this push back from the special train the House Republicans chartered which ran from DC and White Sulfer Springs?  I somebody tried to beat it at a crossing and got hit.

Also when they got rid of the special ex ATSF car on the COAST STARLIGHT, that might have been shot over the bow.

Amtrak should be supporting historic passenger car service.


Why? Does Amtrak make a profit or break even on this service? Our tax dollars are going to Amtrak. How is the general public served?

C W Burfle posted:

Amtrak should be supporting historic passenger car service.


Why? Does Amtrak make a profit or break even on this service? Our tax dollars are going to Amtrak. How is the general public served?

I think you are bringing up an important point.  I am hearing a rumbling here in the north Houston area that the non- profits are wanting more and more money, plus they are tax exempt.  A lot are asking where is all of this money going, and are not giving ANY time, tallent or treasure to ANY NGO and/or non-profit.

If this rumbling begins or is alread nation wide and grows, no non-profit or NGO will be safe from things like removal of tax exemption.  This would include rail groups.  All such groups should approach things double red over yellow.

The problem for private rail car owners is that Amtrak is the game in the country for moving passenger cars.  This move will probably kill the private car ownership business and rail preservation associated with it.  Private rail car owners buy a lot of services from other companies such as maintenance, repair, new parts, etc.  They also employ cooks and other staff on their cars.  This move will affect all the support businesses too.  

 Is this good or bad?  I don't know.  I have enjoyed one very short ride - about 50 miles - in a private car a very long time ago.  It was pulled by an Amtrak train.

I suppose this all get down to whether Amtrak is a public service or a for profit business.  I doubt that Amtrak was losing much money on moving private cars.  The article said they weren't getting their profit margins.  This means, to me, that Amtrak made money on the business but not enough for current management.  I thought that the economic model in railroading was that adding any revenue car to a train didn't cost much more and provided income.  This is the reason trains are as long as possible.  

We will see what happens.    NH Joe

Looks like I can stop saving my money to purchase a business car and starting saving for a EMD locomotive or a shortline.

What Amtrak has now, maybe this can be stopped & turned around……..

To read more about these options: Click here

Maybe Jim Winn and his team can turn this around: Roy Blanchard, Michael Blazek, Al DiCensso, Harley Enoch, Justin Franz, Steve Glischinski, Chase Gunnoe, Chris Guss, Scott Hartley, Bob Johnston, David Lester, David Lustig and Bill Stephens.

Gary

I suppose this all get down to whether Amtrak is a public service or a for profit business.


Amtrak is propped up by our taxes, therefore it cannot be considered a "for profit business". But what does it mean to be a "public service"? Those providing us with public services have to choose wisely on how they spend our money. So once again, I have to ask, how is the public served by moving private rail cars around that are owned and used by a miniscule portion of the US population?
(On the other hand, if the service breaks even or turns a profit this is a moot question).

I see some other posts mentioning that private rail service may be impacting schedules. IMHO, impacting schedules has a monetary value too. Assign a realistic value to schedule impaction (including customer inconvenience), and see if the service still breaks even or makes a profit.

If Amtrak doesn't do it, someone else will.  Many short lines operate independent tourist rail services without any "Mother May I" from Amtrak.  I'm betting BNSF, UP, NS and other freight carriers would be willing to let charter trains operate on their rails for the right price...  

Mitch 

FWRHS is postponing its ticket sales for the planned Joliet Rocket trips this September.

 Official Statement

"While the Fort Wayne Railroad Historical Society (FWRHS) does not have any Amtrak charters planned in 2018, the privately-owned, historic cars included in our excursions commonly use Amtrak terminals for staging and use Amtrak trains to travel to different venues around the country.

The new Amtrak policy will undoubtedly disrupt the passenger consist or delay car movements for The Joliet Rocket, our own excursions planned for September 15th and 16th in Chicago with Metra.

To-date, over 1,862 people have indicated their interest in these events and ticket sales were scheduled to start early next week."

M. Mitchell Marmel posted:

If Amtrak doesn't do it, someone else will.  Many short lines operate independent tourist rail services without any "Mother May I" from Amtrak.  I'm betting BNSF, UP, NS and other freight carriers would be willing to let charter trains operate on their rails for the right price...  

Mitch 

How much would you care to bet? First, the UP has their own "steam program", and thus do NOT need any other steam locomotives hauling "excursions" on their lines. Second, BNSF has always been open to steam excursions on specific lines, so long as they operate under the Amtrak insurance umbrella. Third, ever since Mr. Wick Moorman retired, NS no longer allows any excursions, steam or otherwise.

Lastly, since the "freight railroads" that do/did allow occasional steam excursions require something over 350 million dollars worth of liability insurance, unless the trip is operated under Amtrak insurance coverage, the sponsoring organizations generally can NOT afford such astronomically high insurance premiums for such trips.

Bottom line:  without Amtrak "support", there will be no more excursions, steam or otherwise!

So, if this sticks as-is .... the only mainline steam will be whatever Union Pacific does?

EBT Jim posted:

So, if this sticks as-is .... the only mainline steam will be whatever Union Pacific does?

You got it!!!!       But also remember, the UP operates only ONE "public excursion" per year, i.e. a passenger train that a member of the public can by a ticket to ride on, which is the annual Cheyenne Frontier Days Special (sponsored by the Denver Post newspaper).

Boycott AMTRAK in all aspects including media coverage and political support. never have liked or trusted them.

Hot Water posted:

How much would you care to bet? First, the UP has their own "steam program", and thus do NOT need any other steam locomotives hauling "excursions" on their lines. Second, BNSF has always been open to steam excursions on specific lines, so long as they operate under the Amtrak insurance umbrella. Third, ever since Mr. Wick Moorman retired, NS no longer allows any excursions, steam or otherwise.

More opportunity for enterprising short lines, then, I should think. 

Lastly, since the "freight railroads" that do/did allow occasional steam excursions require something over 350 million dollars worth of liability insurance, unless the trip is operated under Amtrak insurance coverage, the sponsoring organizations generally can NOT afford such astronomically high insurance premiums for such trips.

Got any numbers for how much the premiums are?  I'm curious. 

Bottom line:  without Amtrak "support", there will be no more excursions, steam or otherwise!

And I'm willing to bet the excursion industry isn't about to roll over and die.   

-MMM-

M. Mitchell Marmel posted:

Hot Water posted:

How much would you care to bet? First, the UP has their own "steam program", and thus do NOT need any other steam locomotives hauling "excursions" on their lines. Second, BNSF has always been open to steam excursions on specific lines, so long as they operate under the Amtrak insurance umbrella. Third, ever since Mr. Wick Moorman retired, NS no longer allows any excursions, steam or otherwise.

More opportunity for enterprising short lines, then, I should think. 

None of the large main line excursion steam locomotives, i.e N&W 611, AT&SF 2926, SP 4449, for some examples, will "fit" on most "short lines". Also, just who is going to pay a premium ticket to see a main line 4-8-4 easing along at 20 MPH?

Lastly, since the "freight railroads" that do/did allow occasional steam excursions require something over 350 million dollars worth of liability insurance, unless the trip is operated under Amtrak insurance coverage, the sponsoring organizations generally can NOT afford such astronomically high insurance premiums for such trips.

Got any numbers for how much the premiums are?  I'm curious. 

It's been more than 10 years since the BNSF began requiring over 350 million dollars of liability insurance coverage (in fact it could be even much higher than THAT now) but, such policy for just one year's coverage for the Friends of SP 4449 was over $80,000.

Bottom line:  without Amtrak "support", there will be no more excursions, steam or otherwise!

And I'm willing to bet the excursion industry isn't about to roll over and die.   

Well, without Amtrak's "support" the main line "excursion industry", steam or otherwise, will do just that!

-MMM-

The Lake State Railway • Saginaw, Michigan

John A. Rickoff: The President & CEO is always looking for ways to expand their services provided by, The Lake State Railway.  These private passenger car owners should try to have a meeting with John Rickoff and see if they can make a deal to store their passenger cars and run them into the Northern Wilderness of Michigan.

These photos are an example of what they are doing on the main lines now. Along with working with the Steam Railroading Institute that operates the 1225 Pere Marquette. Located in Owosso, Michigan.

Gary

Talking with a member of the friends of 4449 during the 2011 Wishram run, he said that the mainline run are what the fans love to see, but in reality the foundation does not take home much if anything to help keep the locomotives running and facilities up.  It takes a short line event (Holiday Express in Portland) for the Friends to actually get some funds to use.  the biggest reason he said was insurance.  I didn't how much it was but for at least 7 Amtrak coaches, renting the classics, I could see it to easily be over six figures

cabrala18 posted:

Talking with a member of the friends of 4449 during the 2011 Wishram run, he said that the mainline run are what the fans love to see, but in reality the foundation does not take home much if anything to help keep the locomotives running and facilities up.  It takes a short line event (Holiday Express in Portland) for the Friends to actually get some funds to use.  the biggest reason he said was insurance.  I didn't how much it was but for at least 7 Amtrak coaches, renting the classics, I could see it to easily be over six figures

To put it all in perspective, the contract with Amtrak cost $100,000 for our two-day trip from Portland, OR to Bend, OR and return, this past June 2017. That does NOT include rental and deadhead charges for all the various passenger cars in the train!

Well this news sucks... 

To me, I am surprised these trips lasted as long as they did.

Again, though, the people and organizations who own these cars should always have that, "What if?" question in the back of their minds.

Also, is there anything in that latest Federal Budget which passed have anything to do with this?

Another thought:  None of the large airlines run special flights with older planes like the DC3.

  I wonder if this includes Amtrak's Ski Train out of Denver ?

Crap! My brother and I were going to meet up in North Carolina this summer and take our kids on a trip aboard the 611.

As a commuter into Chicago most week days I am also going to miss seeing the private cars hooked up ready to go or staged in the yard. Always a highlight of my daily trips! 

bigtruckpete posted:

Crap! My brother and I were going to meet up in North Carolina this summer and take our kids on a trip aboard the 611.

There were not going to be any "excursions" on NS anyway, besides the latest Amtrak policy change.

As a commuter into Chicago most week days I am also going to miss seeing the private cars hooked up ready to go or staged in the yard. Always a highlight of my daily trips! 

I always thought Amtrak was in the black with the private varnish

And the world just got a little less fun!!!

If Amtrak is discontinuing private rail excursions, then the answer might be to form a cooperative, put together a string of private rail cars, add a generator car and hire UP, CSX, or NS to pull it. The B&B Circus train was pulled this way and Straits Shows also moves their private owned carnival transport cars this way. Some of the private freight railroads have loads of extra engines.

Dennis LaGrua posted:

If Amtrak is discontinuing private rail excursions, then the answer might be to form a cooperative, put together a string of private rail cars, add a generator car and hire UP, CSX, or NS to pull it. The B&B Circus train was pulled this way and Straits Shows also moves their private owned carnival transport cars this way. Some of the private freight railroads have loads of extra engines.

Do you have ANY IDEA how much that would cost? Remember that the various circus trains were NOT carrying public passengers (the people riding in those cars were all employees of the circus)!

I wrote to New River Train (they operate the new river train excursions) and this is the response

(newrivertrain.com)

I received this reply ;

As of right now we have suspended all ticket sales on current trips. Out cherry blossom trip in April is still a go. After that trips are suspended until further notice. We are working with political parties to work out a solution to this problem. Once a resolution has been worked out, there will be an announcement on our website. If any trips are canceled, passengers who already purchased tickets on trips, will be fully refunded. 

Thanks

Sent from my iPhone

Kinda spoiled my plans to ride the new river train this fall.

I believe I share a common dream with many folks here to purchase a private car at some point. Now my dream is shot. Growing up in my day, the only train cars I have rode on are Amfleets, I have never experienced the luxury of what rail travel used to be.

This news is incredible sad for me. I really feel that Amtrak is making a mistake here. This is horrible publicity for Amtrak, something they desperately need. I believe this decision stems from the new CEO striving for more timely performance, yet lack a reason on how this ban could at all help that scenario in the long-run, not a select few trains every month or so.  

MP BA232.7 posted:

 

I received this reply ;

.... We are working with political parties to work out a solution to this problem....

It's a different administration. (And how!)

Really miss Joe Biden!

I suspect that Amtrak almost never has a delay with private varnish.  Most delays are caused by freight railroad dispatching.  I rode the CZ from CA to Chicago.  We were 6 hours late arriving.  We didn't have any varnish attached to the train.  I remember the CZ sitting on sidings in the middle of nowhere as freight after freight passed us by.   NH Joe