Here is the problem, does Amtrak make a profit on these move? If not it is time for them to dump the whole thing
The private rail cars are owned by very wealthy people and if they want them pulled by Amtrak, then pay up the total cost.
Rail organizations are hurt the most, unless they are willing to cover the entire cost including insurance and if the public is not willing to pay the increase in ticket prices, say good bye to rail trips.
Dave
Ok, so now we have a double whammy of NS and Amtrak not allowing excursions anymore, looks like Squires and Anderson are bean counters and think excursions are a waste of money, and in Amtrak's case a waste of taxpayer dollars. We're just going to have to support the private tourist railroads now, whether they be 5 miles or 55 miles. I'm guessing now 611 is now going to have to sit at the VMT with no place to run again. Even 765's Chicago trips are in jeopardy. All of those NS excursions the past few years required the deadheading of equipment like the dome cars, etc. and that will be much harder now with Amtrak's new policy. Does this mean no more Autumn Express as well? Now there probably won't be any rare mileage excursions on NS in the northeast anymore, even diesel powered ones. Plus there's the PTC thing sidelining the PRR E8's. We'll just have to ride NJT, SEPTA, Amtrak regular trains and tourist railroads on their own track from now on. Even the New River train is ending after 51 years because of this. At least for me the Reading and Northern is nearby, I'm riding the photo freight Port Clinton toward Hazelton May 5. I guess the new CEO of Amtrak just wants to run the regular trains, no special moves, just like NS just wants to run it's regular freight trains now, no special moves except for steam deadhead moves. This is going to affect all excursion operators all over the US that depended on Amtrak to host their excursions or provide equipment. I guess Amtrak is a business, too like the freight railroads and no longer wants to waste time and money operating trains with no real benefit. About the only non scheduled trains we'll see on freight railroads now in the east will be their business trains. No more circus train, no more steam excursions on NS except deadhead moves of 611 and 765, now no more Amtrak special trains. I read though that Milw 261 will still be able to run if it has PTC installed because Amtrak only provides insurance but it mostly runs on BNSF who is steam and excursion friendly. Now, nobody except BNSF will host someone else's steam or diesel train for public excursions. And maybe commuter railroads like Metra. Only mainline steam this year is at Denver and Chicago. 844 and 765.
To read this article from the Wall Street Journal: Please Click here
Gary
Does this mean the end of Autumn Express? The Oct 2016 one passed through my area (Allentown, PA) on freight only tracks. I always wanted to ride the tracks between NJ and Harrisburg through Allentown and Reading, I never did, except for the stretch from Bethlehem to Allentown behind 765 on Aug 22, 2015. Now it looks like I'll never get the chance to ride the rest of the route. If Amtrak and NS no longer allow excursions, then the only options now to ride trains in PA, NY, and NJ will be the regular SEPTA, NJT, and Amtrak trains and tourist railroads. Excursions on class 1 freight only track might become a thing of the past. The only non electrified passenger trains we have in eastern PA, east of Harrisburg are tourist railroads like Strasburg, New Hope, Lehigh Gorge, etc. I believe Amtrak uses electric locomotives east of Harrisburg but they were using diesels for a while between Harrisburg and Philly. SEPTA has been all electric since 1983, when the Newtown run was discontinued. Reading/Pottsville and Quakertown/Bethlehem ended summer 1981.
Reply to David1: According to a former Amtrak President, who gave a presentation to AAPRCO last year, and a Wall St. Journal Article, Private cars and charters contributed over 4 million dollars directly to the bottom line. So this is not a decision based on them being money-losing.
Also: Not ALL PV moves are being ended, only some intermediate set-outs and pick-ups. Of more concern to me than the PV moves are the reported 22 special trains that had been scheduled and canceled, which would have brought in over 5 million dollars. (Source: PV owner in T.O.com)
Also, David1, Amtrak doesn't make a profit on anything, except perhaps PV moves. Should we just "dump the whole thing?"
BANDOB posted:Reply to David1: According to a former Amtrak President, who gave a presentation to AAPRCO last year, and a Wall St. Journal Article, Private cars and charters contributed over 4 million dollars directly to the bottom line. So this is not a decision based on them being money-losing.
Contributing 4 million to the bottom line doesn't mean that PV moves are profitable. They may have just have generated 4 million in extra revenue. You would have to know the costs to determine the profitability of PV or any other trains.
Of course, allocation of costs is very subjective. I used to do it for a living. You can make almost anything in a business look unprofitable by over allocating costs to it. For example, how much of Amtrak's president salary is allocated to PV moves? I don't think any of it should be because Amtrak would have a president even if there were no PV moves but someone else would argue that since he oversees Amtrak, PV should pick up their fair share. This is why cost allocation is very controversial and more political than precise.
NH Joe
So Amtrak is banning most excursions to save money? Heck with the railfans, rare mileage collectors, and the organizations and communities that depended on excursions like New River Train? I was hoping to ride a future Autumn Express out of Philly or Newark, NJ, now I won’t be able to.
Robert K posted:So Amtrak is banning most excursions to save money? Heck with the railfans, rare mileage collectors, and the organizations and communities that depended on excursions like New River Train? I was hoping to ride a future Autumn Express out of Philly or Newark, NJ, now I won’t be able to.
Gee, that's a real shame!
Yes, it is a shame and AMTRAK is a royal pain in the butt.
Ok, maybe now start supporting other organizations that can operate long excursions, like Reading and Northern, Providence & Worcester (will they continue under G&W and be able to use Amtrak?), Steamtown, TVRM, Arkansas and Missouri, and others. Now we have reached a point where we have to forget about riding on rare mileage on class 1 railroads and just enjoy what we have on the tourist lines and regional freight railroads that operate excursions like the ones I mentioned. And Amtrak is always available to ride normally, like if you want to ride from Philly to Boston for example.
The way I understand it, private rail cars have had a negative impact on a trains schedule. You will still see private rail cars but the new rule is to offer only origin to destination service. In other words no more pickups along the way except at extended stops.
The Statement
Chief among them: that Amtrak may be growing less accommodating to ferrying these private coaches around the country tethered to its regularly scheduled service, because of bad behavior among some one-off renters of the private coaches and, more significantly, because risks to on-time performance.
At a time when such metrics are under tight scrutiny may not outweigh the $4 million in revenue Amtrak estimates it derives annually. More generally, long-haul Amtrak routes themselves are at risk, with a congressional mandate looming to route all service along track with positive-train-control technology. Some of the freight-owned track used by Amtrak during longer journeys is not expected to comply by the year-end deadline.
To read more from this article, please Click here
Look for the hidden agenda!
Gary
EBT Jim posted:Maybe Union Pacific RR will ramp up their steam program after 4014 is done? Potential of three engines? Write them and let them know. This is our country's history.
Ramp up to what? The Union Pacific operates only one "excursion" per year, which is sponsored by the Denver Post newspaper. There are no longer anymore sponsoring organizations that can afford their portion of the liability insurance & rental charges for the spectacular UP passenger cars. Thus, the UP hasn't operated "excursions" available to the public for many years.
If you want steam, you're going to have to go to where it operates. Reading and Northern, TVRM, Grand Canyon, etc. On those railroads they don't have to worry about Amtrak, PTC, or permission from stubborn freight railroads to operate. And on those three you can get a nice long ride behind steam and in open window coaches. TVRM and Grand Canyon have streamlined cars, too. Hopefully 261 and 765 can still operate their runs this year. And I believe tourist lines, etc. will be exempt from PTC. Maybe we should be fighting the government to not cut long distance regular Amtrak trains. If you can get your butt to Denver in July, 844 is pulling a public excursion to Cheyenne which is usually the only public excursion with 844.
Robert K posted:If you want steam, you're going to have to go to where it operates. Reading and Northern, TVRM, Grand Canyon, etc. On those railroads they don't have to worry about Amtrak, PTC, or permission from stubborn freight railroads to operate. And on those three you can get a nice long ride behind steam and in open window coaches. TVRM and Grand Canyon have streamlined cars, too. Hopefully 261 and 765 can still operate this year. And I believe tourist lines, etc. will be exempt from PTC.
Grand Canyon no longer operates steam powered trains on a regular schedule. They don't even list the steam locomotives on their equipment page.
Rusty
According to this https://www.railserve.com/steamspecials.html Grand Canyon is still operating steam, there are several runs this year. TVRM has several Summerville Steam Specials, some doubleheaded, and Reading and Northern will probably operate 425 in the fall on the longer runs from Reading and Port Clinton to Jim Thorpe and maybe Pittston or Penobscot to Jim Thorpe.
H'm. Wonder if one of these sidelined steam engines could possibly find their way to the Arkansas and Missouri... 
How about renting the Cotton Belt 819? When it is restored. But who would move it? What is UP’s policy toward moving foreign steam engines on their tracks? A&M has a few open window coaches and over 100 miles of track.
Robert K posted:How about renting the Cotton Belt 819? When it is restored.
In what century will THAT be, since there is nobody there that knows what they are doing with a large 4-8-4?
But who would move it? What is UP’s policy toward moving foreign steam engines on their tracks?
All it takes is MONEY!
A&M has a few open window coaches and over 100 miles of track.
Is all that track capable of handling a big 4-8-4?
How about Age of Steam roundhouse? All those steam locomotives with nowhere to pull excursions since the G&W owner of Ohio Central is anti excursion? I think the anti excursion attitude of some freight railroads is due to liability. They want to minimize their risk. At Amtrak, the crashes probably now killed excursions and extra trains. It’s lawyers who are killing off mainline excursions. And money plays a factor, too especially with publicly traded corporations like NS who have to answer to shareholders as to how they spend their money, and Amtrak has to beg Congress for money. The tourist lines and regionals who are excursion friendly don’t really have those issues. Privately owned railroads don’t have to answer to shareholders. For years I thought of NS as this evil company that no longer allowed steam or very many diesel excursions on their busy railroad. Now they are that way again, although this time with Amtrak no longer operating excursions the amount of public excursions on NS will probably be zero.
Hot Water posted:Robert K posted:A&M has a few open window coaches and over 100 miles of track.
Plus I know there are wyes along the line which can reverse steam locos...
Is all that track capable of handling a big 4-8-4?
I'm not sure about the trestles, but the main line is continuous welded rail, so there shouldn't be a problem there...
I'll make enquiries when I'm down there on Wednesday.
Mitch
I'd be curious to know the last time one of the big four railroads experienced a line being blocked because a steam engine special run/charter stalled out and delayed freight. Maybe it's happened, but I can't recall ever hearing about any significant incident.
breezinup posted:I'd be curious to know the last time one of the big four railroads experienced a line being blocked because a steam engine special run/charter stalled out and delayed freight. Maybe it's happened, but I can't recall ever hearing about any significant incident.
Then there was the reverse incident, when a 10,000+ ton UP westbound manifest freight stalled on the approach of Archer Hill, in Wyoming. The stalled freight blocked UP 844 returning to Cheyenne from an outing down in Missouri. End result was, 844 coupled up to the rear of the stalled freight, and helped it up and over the grade, clearing the westbound main line. The UP had no other diesel power available to assist the stalled freight, but the 1944 Also 4-8-4 sure did the job!
Besides the 844, what mainline steam locomotives will be able to run now with this stupid Amtrak policy? 765 and 261? Or are even those in jeopardy? Fort Wayne said that even their ability to go to CVSR could be affected because of something to do with less operation will cost them more in insurance or something. And they depended on Amtrak to move cars to and from excursion locations. I thought NS moved some of the cars though.
The article I read said that Amtrak generates 4 million in revenue. Others say that 4 million goes to the bottom line. Big difference. You would have to really have it out for rich varnish owners to give up 4 million of your bottom line.
i suspect it is a revenue figure and not bottom line. Ask any CEO how mad he would have to be at someone to give up $4 million in profit. But it is taxpayer dollars, so who knows.
There still is a first class RR trip using posh vintage cars available in North America--VIA! Winnipeg to Vancouver was the best train ride I've ever had.
For steam, I don't think you can beat Scotland/UK. There's some very impressive programs there.
Kent in SD
Robert K posted:How about renting the Cotton Belt 819? When it is restored. But who would move it? What is UP’s policy toward moving foreign steam engines on their tracks? A&M has a few open window coaches and over 100 miles of track.
Asked around a bit, and it would appear that the 819 is a bit large for the A&M. A smaller Mike or Pacific would probably be better.
Mitch
I had always thought that the Rail Passenger Service Act had specifically required carriage of private passenger cars, but a quick read through of it (at least the original - I guess it could always have been subsequently amended) does not make any mention. Have I been mistaken?
Hot Water posted:EBT Jim posted:Maybe Union Pacific RR will ramp up their steam program after 4014 is done? Potential of three engines? Write them and let them know. This is our country's history.
Ramp up to what? The Union Pacific operates only one "excursion" per year, which is sponsored by the Denver Post newspaper. There are no longer anymore sponsoring organizations that can afford their portion of the liability insurance & rental charges for the spectacular UP passenger cars. Thus, the UP hasn't operated "excursions" available to the public for many years.
I wouldn't know what they MAY ramp up to. Neither do you. It is ..... hoping for the future.
Again .... UP is getting closer to getting 4014 done. They have 844. There is the potential of 3985. That would be THREE engines .... in very good condition. They are spending money on the shop, to help keep them that way. And, UP obviously has confidence in the people running the program.
Union Pacific is "walking the walk." Train enthusiasts and, more importantly, Americans who care about the history of our nation, can be grateful.
Here's hoping that UP will want to ... is planning to .... find ways to .... better share this resource with the American people.
Is Bennett Levin’s E8 trip still operating in May? 261 in the summer? The VMT private car trips with Amtrak?
I just think rail fans can unite behind a policy they don't agree with. The folks running the show just need a little... Or maybe a lot of education on the topic. It could make a difference.
Robert K posted:Is Bennett Levin’s E8 trip still operating in May? 261 in the summer? The VMT private car trips with Amtrak?
TBD
trainroomgary posted:sent from my iPhone: Wall Street Journal by: Nancy Keates
To read this article from the Wall Street Journal: Please Click here
Gary
I read the linked article. In part, it says "...The services included Amtrak-operated customized private-train journeys for events like corporate meetings, sports teams and rail-fan excursions...". Now, I understand that such articles are often written by people who don't fully understand the subject, but...
To me, the key words seem to be "Amtrak-operated". When the 765 pulls an excursion train of non-Amtrak equipment (for example) and provides its own engineer and crew, is it "Amtrak-operated"? I understand that such excursions need to coordinate with and get permission from the railroads that own the track, but that's a separate issue; does Amtrak have anything to do with it?
Are people jumping to conclusions regarding the impact of this?
Not from the perspective of rail fans... So maybe he'd like to hear that story.
What a difference a year makes.This time last year,Trains magazine issued a special magazine and dvd on all the big steam engines operating. From reading the magazine from cover to cover,it is obvious that the love of steam engines from volunteers is strong,hopefully it will change Amtrak's tune.
Well the 1309, the least of the east, is not running any time soon!
Dan986 posted:
What a difference a year makes.This time last year,Trains magazine issued a special magazine and dvd on all the big steam engines operating. From reading the magazine from cover to cover,it is obvious that the love of steam engines from volunteers is strong,hopefully it will change Amtrak's tune.
If anyone is going to change Amtrak's "tune," it will require an organized effort from the PV owner/operators and the charter rail cruise industry. They're the ones with skin in the game.
Rusty
Read the latest TRAINS Magazine for an in-depth story on how excursions actually come to pass - and why so many don't.
Dear MMM also known as Mitch,
Amtrak does NOT have exclusive jurisdiction over all excursion trains that operate over the same rails as Amtrak- just Amtrak charter specials. 765 pulled passengers around Horseshoe Curve without ever talking to Amtrak (well, we did make arrangements with the Station Manager to use the the Altoona station but that was handled at the local level). At Lewistown, FWRHS made arrangements with the PRRTHS to pick up and discharge passengers in front of their station, plus porta potties, parking, EMS, etc..
I'm not sure I see why we get so hung up on amtrak and profitability. There's nothing inherently wrong with viewing rail passenger service as in the public good, and so something worth maintaining and even expanding through public investment.
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