Another New Plan for Pennsylvania Station...

Ho hum.  The only thing I can say about the idea is that it will bring construction jobs !

They've proposed using the Farley building as a the new Penn Station many years ago.  Would probably be alot cheaper just to revamp that building than what they are proposing, using the Madison Square Garden super structure.

I dunno, I kinda like it.  The graphics -- especially of the older buildings -- were well done.  Thanks for posting, Jon.

I like it.  But then again, many a tax dollar have been buried in the graves of good intentions.

it's a novel proposal. though the illustrations show not nearly enough pedestrian walking & waiting areas. items that can be addressed while still retaining the unique openess of the concept.

one must remember the original layout of NY Penn had large open areas on the concourse above the tracks, which were subsequently covered over to provide more floor areas.

I've been a avid follower of all things NY Penn for years, yet outside of the Times story this concept has not seen much of the light of day.

and I do resent the dig at Gov. Christie for cancelling the colossal waste of money that was the final plan for ARC.

All another excuse to build more retail stores....with empties growing all around.

Doing anything will be a multi-billion dollar production.  One gigantic difference is that the Pennsylvania railroad built a railroad station with their money to their specification.  This project will be a government lead production insuring that hundreds of politicians, activists and space cadets will design a thing they will name after themselves and, by the way, there may be a train somewhere in the bottom of it.

The artist renderings show that the artist has never been to a functioning railroad station nor has he been to 8th ave. and 31st street - imagine no cars and only a few smiling people on the street - not NYC!

Separating AMTK from NJT/LIRR/NYCTA is not a good idea and the Farley building is too far west of 7th Avenue and subway connections to be attractive as a primary station facility - put "The Garden" in there and forget it.  Further, the proposal ignores the very valuable air rights above the station.

During my years in NYC, I never really figured out the existing maze.  A unified station plan with simplified passenger access between carriers is essential.  With existing trackage and platforms being at the same level, I suggest revisiting the original inspiration for the Penn Station, the "Gare d'Orsay":

Money being no object, an open grid pattern of multiple elevated walkways, crossing all tracks and providing access to all platforms, connected by several walkways running parallel to the tracks for the entire length of the platform area, would solve the problems discussed - including catenary support.  A control point, waiting room, ticket sales and baggage handling area at the 7th Avenue end of the station would tie the entire system together.  Proper signage would allow passengers to SEE where they need to go and easily determine the most direct path to that location; the lower level could be dedicated to baggage and mail handling.

An atrium above the walkways would provide the desired sense of openness.  Two intersecting elevated walkways at street level, above the passenger walkways, would allow easy, protected access from surrounding roadways to the controlled station entry point.  Finally, an office building above the atrium, with adequate access points, would utilize the air rights, provide revenue and have the added benefit to occupants of ready access to transportation.

Should there be a need for additional tracks and platforms associated with new tunnels, a simple southward expansion of the station, using the same pattern and system of interconnected walkways, would resolve that issue.

Attempting to adapt present site architecture to fit today's and tomorrow's wants and needs is like trying to fit 40 lbs. of "stuff" into a 10 lb. box, you just wind up with a bigger and, ultimately, more expensive mess.  The City and State of New York seem to find adequate funds to finance all their other zillion dollar boondoggles, why not one more that might actually benefit the people of the metro area?

There's a Brooklyn based architectural firm that's proposing rebuilding the original structure because all the footings and infrastructure are existent.  Do we still have the craftspeople to accomplish such a feat?

Jon  

To build a glass and steel structure, I have no doubt. To re-create the original structure, no. It will most likely be done in a CNC machine using Styrofoam with a cement-epoxy coating, trying to duplicate the original, IMO, pertaining to the decorative facades. The actual structure shouldn't be a problem.

Tall order, unless some modular manufacturing techniques are figured out. You have to admit, it's a very inspirational building. I think there will always be those trying to emulate it.

Note again:  the original as-built station had no catenary.

Jon  

KOOLjock1 posted:

Note again:  the original as-built station had no catenary.

Jon  

Start the "Train Pushers Union Local #1". 

"Catenary" is also an architectural term.  The original Penn Station had a catenary arch in the roof line.  I'm not 100% sure, but I believe the windows in the photo above show just that.  The NYT writer could have been clearer in their reference but they weren't taking about an electric system.   Look down at the bottom of this wikipedia link for a brief mention of the use of a catenary arch in New York's Penn Station.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catenary_arch

Firewood, thanks for posting that amazing interior photo.

Tomlinson Run Railroad

I was curious, so I skimmed the article again.  Here's the passage in question:

" ... reuses the catenary structure of the building's original trusses ..."

Sadly, if I was ever inside this magnificent original building, I was too young to remember.  However, the current version is well etched in my memory :-).

TRRR

KOOLjock1 posted:

For instance... where does the catenary get strung?

Note again:  the original as-built station had no catenary.

Jon  

I'm not understanding all of the concern about the "cat" wires as there is "Third Rail" power.

I don't think that most of Amtrak's intercity trains on the NEC use the third rail.  I think the idea has merit and should be considered along with other options.  I haven't been in NYC since before 911.  My impression of the current Penn Station is that it was awful and from some of the comments above it appears that it is still awful.  

I am old enough to have taken trains from the original Penn Station.  My memory of it then was that that it was very open.  The downside was that all the glass made it very, very, hot during the summer.  As a kid, I wore a little suit with a tie to travel in those days.  Climbing the stairs from the platforms to the concourse seemed like climbing a mountain for my little legs.  

I think that Penn Station should be improved.  The only questions are how, when and how to pay for it. Perhaps this could be one of the proposed infrastructure projects.  

NH Joe

The irony of it all. Yet another world-class McKim, Mead, and White, Beaux-Arts masterpiece to falter under the weight of the ever-Holy Madison Square Garden, while preserving a ghost of the original sin.

The third rail is for Long Island Rail Road trains, overhead catenary for Amtrak and NJT.  Grand Central used a different system that combined catenary and third rail, with the cat covering breaks in the third rail system around switches.  While Pennsylvania Station was built in 1910, the Pennsylvania didn't fully electrify past Manhattan Transfer, NJ until the 1930's.  The Long Island electrified their lines east in the teens and 20's... but the tunnels were always electrified from opening day.

Jon

Danr posted:

Doing anything will be a multi-billion dollar production.  One gigantic difference is that the Pennsylvania railroad built a railroad station with their money to their specification.  This project will be a government lead production insuring that hundreds of politicians, activists and space cadets will design a thing they will name after themselves and, by the way, there may be a train somewhere in the bottom of it.

The artist renderings show that the artist has never been to a functioning railroad station nor has he been to 8th ave. and 31st street - imagine no cars and only a few smiling people on the street - not NYC!

Not that I disagree with your sentiment, understand that architectural renderings are intended to illustrate a building, not it's inhabitants.

Mill City posted:

The irony of it all. Yet another world-class McKim, Mead, and White, Beaux-Arts masterpiece to falter under the weight of the ever-Holy Madison Square Garden, while preserving a ghost of the original sin.

Wasn't MSG's lease not renewed? And, they have to move the Garden .... some years out when the present lease ends? Or, has that changed?

Or, did I misunderstand what you're saying?

Matt01 posted:

Mill City posted:

The irony of it all. Yet another world-class McKim, Mead, and White, Beaux-Arts masterpiece to falter under the weight of the ever-Holy Madison Square Garden, while preserving a ghost of the original sin.

Wasn't MSG's lease not renewed? And, they have to move the Garden .... some years out when the present lease ends? Or, has that changed?

Or, did I misunderstand what you're saying?

Yes, Matt, I believe you may have misunderstood  the intension of my post. It was in responce to the NYT opinion piece linked above.

Though, I fully understand the need for such a venue, I harbor no love for the eye-shore known as Madison Square Garden. Currently the fourth incarnation, each move has historically been at regretful architectural expense.  Case in point, the 1963 desecration of Penn Station. In the spirit of consistency, the desire to move one block West only makes sense, and again, extrude an enormous Madison-Square-Garden-turd on what is the last vestiges of the once, highly celebrated, Pennsylvania Station. 

I would hope they do use the Post office building. Re the concern about being too far west I might suggest what airports do when pedestrians have a 'long' walk.....people movers. Mid-town Manhattan is not quite the place to worry too much about convenience and nostalgia....although I cherish them both. 

I was being facetious, Jon, no one smiles in New York.

Danr posted:

I was being facetious, Jon, no one smiles in New York.

LOL...I believe that....