Another Sound Issue - Different Engine (Lionel Legacy 4-6-0) - Solved!

Does the smoke chuff normally, or does it also skip when the chuffs skip?  If the smoke works normally, this would likely be the IR link to the tender.  IF the smoke doesn't chuff as well, it's something with the chuff switch circuit.

John,

I forgot to mention that the smoke unit does not chuff.  It is acting the same as the chuff sound - nada.  The fan also does not spin at idle.

The fan on those never did spin at idle, one of the things I don't like about mine.  However, since the fan doesn't work at all, I'm guessing some issue with the serial data or the chuff signal.

John,

I did a little more testing on the engine today and wanted to get your input.  

I first validated the tender was fine because it chuffed with a different legacy engine.  

I then tried to replace the R4LC with a new one I got for a pending engine upgrade.  What I found out on that is even though I put the Engine in Program Mode, it would not Program.  I could only get whistle via Eng 1, but could not reprogram it to Engine 77 via my CAB2.  I then tried with my CAB1 and even though I got the whistle from the tender that it programmed, it actually didn't and still would only respond to ENG1.  

I then tried to reprogram the original R4LC and that would not program either.

The above leads me to believe that the Motherboard (691MB09B01) is bad.  Would you agree?  I'm pretty sure the rest of the boards work since the engine runs fine, although I won't be able to test the smoke until I get the chuff back.

Would you agree?

I'd start by checking the wiring from the PGM/RUN switch to the R4LC socket.  The PGM/RUN switch should have frame ground on one side, and go to pin #22 of the R2LC socket on the other side.  Verify when you turn the switch to PGM that pin #22 gets grounded and when you go to RUN, the ground is removed.

The chuff is not likely to be affected by reprogramming, so I'm not convinced that the MB is the issue.

John,

I traced the PGM/RUN switch and have great continuity to the Mainboard and to Pin 22, so I'm not sure what the issue is.  I'm almost ready to send the engine back to Lionel to try to figure out.  

I can't imagine why the R4LC won't program if you're indeed grounding pin #22 and setting the TMCC ID.  Since you swapped the R4LC, did that R4LC work in another locomotive?  Are they both the same firmware version?

I had a Atlantic legacy streamer that I repaired. After , I put it back together. The chuff was messed up. No, chuff - machine gun chuff.

I finally removed the motor and turned on power and pushed it along the track by hand. It didn't machine gun. I sort of determined it was something in the labored chuffing. There was a fet/transistor (never bothered checking) working on the engine I had shorted the legs together.

I'm not saying that's your issue. But, something to note when troubleshooting the chuff circuit

John,

I did not check the C&O's R4LC in another engine as I didn't have one open at the time.  I'm guessing they are different Firmwares.  The C&O is S03, the one from Electric RR is C08-S1 (I am assuming the suffix after the R4LC sticker is the firmware.

Shawn,

Thanks - I removed all the plugs to the Motor Driver Board and had the same issue.  All sounds worked except the chuff.

Might be a stupid thing. But, I had a pin back out of a connector. It just happened to be the chuff. How about a jumper from the board to return....to check at board locally

There is a signal sounds railsounds switch on the tender of the unit.... if in signal sounds no chuff. Also, I believe the chuffing volume can be set independent of the 

other sounds. Possible, you turned it down? Aux 1 1 might be it. Read the manual.

The R4LC from ERR is a TMCC code, you need one from a Legacy locomotive.  The Legacy R4LC and the ERR R4LC are the same hardware, but ERR has TMCC code to make them the same as the R2LC-C08 previously used.

Short answer, it won't work in that Legacy locomotive.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

The R4LC from ERR is a TMCC code, you need one from a Legacy locomotive.  The Legacy R4LC and the ERR R4LC are the same hardware, but ERR has TMCC code to make them the same as the R2LC-C08 previously used.

Short answer, it won't work in that Legacy locomotive.

What really is the difference John? Do you know?

I believe I just told you. 

The hardware is the same as Legacy, the firmware it very different.  The Legacy compatible R4LC talks 9 bit code and is Legacy compatible, the TMCC R4LC code talks 8 bit code and is identical in function to the same firmware version in an R2LC.  The TMCC R4LC will not function properly in a Legacy locomotive.

John,

That's what I figured.  None of my other Legacy engines have a R4LC - they all have the newer boards that are basically all in 1.  The tender is in Railsounds mode as it works with a different Legacy Engine.  I checked all the pins in the plugs and they are all in correctly.

If the chuff switch is functioning as tested by an ohmmeter, and the RUN/PGM switch is connected properly and with no opens, I'd start suspecting the R4LC.

You should be able to rotate the flywheel and see the chuff ground and open on pin 17 of the R4LC.  By the same token, you should see the RUN/PGM switch switch pin 22 on and off ground.

If both of these tests work, there's no reason you wouldn't get a chuff or be able to program the R4LC.

That locomotive does have a separate fan motor controller board, so it might be screwing up and possibly affecting the chuff.  Did you trace the chuff switch to the R4LC and verify a connection?

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I believe I just told you. 

The hardware is the same as Legacy, the firmware it very different.  The Legacy compatible R4LC talks 9 bit code and is Legacy compatible, the TMCC R4LC code talks 8 bit code and is identical in function to the same firmware version in an R2LC.  The TMCC R4LC will not function properly in a Legacy locomotive.

So, then the newer sound boards aren't backwards compatable. As they now use 9 bit data?

Well, they're "kinda" compatible, we had a fairly large thread on using Legacy modular sound boards in TMCC locomotives.  For the most part, they will work, but some folks have seen a few issues.  I've used a Legacy RailSounds 5.5 board in a TMCC locomotive without issue, and I have a couple more that I'm going to do.  However, putting a RailSounds 4 board into a Legacy will not work.

John,

I confirmed via Continuity that the chuff works to the point the wires go into the two boards (smoke and motor driver).  However, Pin 17 does not have continuity, so my issue does not appear to be the R4LC.  So the next question, is on the Mainboard, what wire is the chuff input?  Unfortunately, I don't have a schematic for it.

Just take the meter and hunt around for the chuff input wire on the MB.  See if you can find any connector pin connected to Pin 17 of the R4LC.  Also, see if you can find the chuff switch input on any connector pin on the MB as well.  Given the lack of diagrams, that's how I do it.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Just take the meter and hunt around for the chuff input wire on the MB.  See if you can find any connector pin connected to Pin 17 of the R4LC.  Also, see if you can find the chuff switch input on any connector pin on the MB as well.  Given the lack of diagrams, that's how I do it.

John,

It looks like the Mainboard is fine - there is good continuity between the chuff input from the Motor Board to Pin 17.  I then traced the Motor Board.  There is continuity between the Chuff Input from the cherry switch to the output to the output wire to the Mother Board (MB in the picture below), but there is some resistance (>50 ohm) as the meter did not give me the tone (50 Ohm is the threshold).  I also noticed there is a small resistor inline from the cherry switch to the motor board input.  I'm now wondering if the chuff circuit of the motor board is bad.  I also noticed that the small transistor was very close to touching together, so I am wondering if it actually did and shorted something out.

I'm not crystal clear on all the connections for this locomotive, it's even harder to shoot in ASCII.   Perhaps someone like Marty Fitzhenry may be able to help, he has the later documentation and does a lot of Legacy repairs.

Thanks - I'll ping him and see if he has any insight on the issue.

Remember, modular Legacy, the switch fires from the open position and not the closed position.

Marty, he has two issues, the chuff doesn't work, and he can't program the TMCC ID, even though he's traced the wiring all the way back to the R4LC.  Whether it chuffs on the open or close, it doesn't chuff at all right now.

We are talking tonight.  

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

We are talking tonight.  

Yes if that is ok.  If not, another time is fine.

I think this is the same board in the Atlantic. I had a wire fall out for the ac reg. The brown wire on the left actually goes one foward.. so, there is only one wire in the middle left connector. I think the white wire? Is the chuff switch and splits off to the motor driver. 

I would verify with a ohmmeter from rl to white wire. Then, why not lift that connector if is the correct one. Then manally use a jumper to see if the chuff works.  I'm not sure what the reference return is... board common or track common. John, would know. 

Also, I wonder if you could have lost the reference for the return for the chuff switch...Doesn't the program switch get grounded for programming. Or is  it a jumper across the board?

Modular TMCC and the early Legacy with the modular boards all use frame ground (wheels) as DC common.  Most signals like chuff to the R2(4)LC, lights, smoke, couplers, are all returned to frame ground.

Take note that this is NOT true for the newer RailSounds boards, the chuff inputs to those must be totally isolated from frame ground!

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Modular TMCC and the early Legacy with the modular boards all use frame ground (wheels) as DC common.  Most signals like chuff to the R2(4)LC, lights, smoke, couplers, are all returned to frame ground.

Take note that this is NOT true for the newer RailSounds boards, the chuff inputs to those must be totally isolated from frame ground!

So, if he lost chuff me the ability to program. He could have lost that reference?

he should check the other side of the chuff switch and program switch? 

I've mentioned the frame ground multiple times. and the fact that two different functions don't work leads me to believe it may be a different failure.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I've mentioned the frame ground multiple times. and the fact that two different functions don't work leads me to believe it may be a different failure.

Thanks for the continuing education professor john!

Hi All - it was the R4LC that was bad - I got a new one, programmed it, and the sound started working fine.  Now I just have to figure out why the smoke fan is not working, but I can live with that as I don't run with smoke in the house.  

That locomotive has a logic control board that runs the fan.  If the fan motor and wiring are good, I'd suspect the logic control board.