Any interest in a bridge from TMCC to DCC?

Caution! Integrating DCC presents a unique set of issues which are a whole lot different than those encountered with LC , TMCC/Legacy or DCS.

@BOB WALKER posted:

Caution! Integrating DCC presents a unique set of issues which are a whole lot different than those encountered with LC , TMCC/Legacy or DCS.

Well that certainly sounds ominous anything at the top of that list that you have in mind?

I mean I know they are fundamentally different all the way down to even a basic electrical level like one running AC vs DC and the two obviously not running on the same track as a result. but you already are getting me scared with an opening message like that. Like I am about to sail into the Bermuda Triangle without realizing it and am simply wondering why I see so many boat parts floating over there. Definitely a sense of foreboding all of a sudden.

@BOB WALKER posted:

Caution! Integrating DCC presents a unique set of issues which are a whole lot different than those encountered with LC , TMCC/Legacy or DCS.

Id like you to elaborate on this.

The point of this integration is to be able to have the user perform basic control of a DCC decoder with a “inverter board” like BlueRail or the Airwire 900 from CVP products. These products can be used in a AC, DC, and Battery powered environment. These basic controls would follow: Direction, Speed & Functions 0-24.

Bit info for TMCC is public and found in the original user guide of TrainMaster command control manual on Lionels website. LEGACY/LC is not.

Programming CVs with these remotes is off the table at this point in time. To keep this less complicated.

I somehow doubt there are very many folks wanting to control DCC locos with TMCC/Legacy/LionChief/DCS, so it would have to be for the challenge and pleasure of doing it, and not for any market I can imagine.  I suppose there are some with three rail O gauge who might like to control their DCC HO or N gauge locos with their cab-1, LionChief remote or DCS handheld, but I would think using a DCC remote would make more sense.  It's not like they are fabulously expensive.

Considering I do indeed run DCC and have the lionel cab remotes, I would love to see this happen. I do have a question and a thought.

If I am reading this correctly, there is going to be an "interface" that will allow a cab 1 remote to send commands to the dcc command station to operate locomotives. So is the "interface" going to be connected as an accessory device in the command system bus (loconet on digitrax for example)?

Now just a thought to put out there (or pipe dream, whatever you want to call it). DCC, as you know, is self destructive to any electronics that do not isolate the strange dcc waveform that is the signal. Therefore, no non dcc decoder equipped locomotives will last on dcc powered rails. This is an issue for many dcc users since its an "all or nothing" approach. What I shall throw out is, what about an interface board that receives tmcc signals, and outputs a dcc signal to control an individual dcc decoder? That way, the entire layout can be powered with straight, constant AC power. This would allow owners to install a dcc decoder with sounds and control they want, while controlling it, and the rest of their stock engines, with the classic cab 1 and TMCC.

In short, think of it as airwire, but instead of radio control and battery power, its tmcc and track power. Again, just a thought, as I have NOT tried this or have plans of doing so. But I figured if you were looking for feedback, I would throw out a couple of cents.

I've never been able to get DCS to work on my layout. I have a lot of MTH Premier locomotives that are now paper weights. I haven't bought an MTH engine since 2013. TMCC and Legacy work perfectly on my layout. Any solution that allows me to run those PS2 locomotives using either Legacy or TMCC would be a worthwhile investment for me.

I don't run any DCC locomotives but I'm working on a project where we want to use DCC(++?) to run some model cranes. I need to move at least three DC motors. The current stumbling block? How do we control this? Buy a pricey DCC system? DCC++? I gotta admit, it's enticing to just be able to flip over to DCC from my CAB1L or CAB2 remote instead of introducing a separate remote.

In short, I would be very interested if you went the DCC++ route. Mainly because it's affordable and accessible.

I had heard that TMCC actually uses DCC command protocol, but uses a Radio Carrier rather than square wave voltage on the track. This supposedly was to maintain compatibility with conventional AC trains. It would be interesting to see if a relay transmitter could be set up to pass the commands to TMCC locomotives.

@Santa Fe 3751 posted:

think of it as airwire, but instead of radio control and battery power, its tmcc and track power. Again, just a thought, as I have NOT tried this or have plans of doing so. But I figured if you were looking for feedback, I would throw out a couple of cents.

This is exactly what I’m getting at. A board that goes into the engine. Converting input power into DCC signal for the decoder and acts as radio receiver to TMCC and mini DCC command station. Like Airwire and BlueRail.

Here's my reasoning on why a bridge from TMCC to DCC is questionable.  Achieving interoperability between TMCC and LC is essentially the design of a link between system A and system B. In contrast, ea ch brand of DCC decoder offers a unique set of features and more importantly utilizes a particular approach to the all important management of CV's.  Also, each brand has its set of strong adherents. So which one do you choose for the link project? Not a simple decision.

@BOB WALKER posted:

Here's my reasoning on why a bridge from TMCC to DCC is questionable.  Achieving interoperability between TMCC and LC is essentially the design of a link between system A and system B. In contrast, ea ch brand of DCC decoder offers a unique set of features and more importantly utilizes a particular approach to the all important management of CV's.  Also, each brand has its set of strong adherents. So which one do you choose for the link project? Not a simple decision.

I don't think any of that matters unless you are trying to link a control system like NCE to the Cab1 for example. That be pointless anywasy because there are already things out there that are free and can do that.

DCC decoders are is designed around NMRA standards so they are consistent in physical function of outputs. Decoders that have sound will follow the same outputs of whistle and bell but everything past that will be mapped slightly different between manufactures. BUT since DCC is very user customizable....the user can map the functions in the KEY pattern they want.

LIKE I SAID BEFORE. The best way going about this is almost the same concept of BlueWire and AirWire 900 from CVP products. Where you have a board that goes between the input power from the track in the locomotive to the DCC decoder in that same locomotive and that board responding to TMCC commands via the radio signal converting into DCC commands for the decoder. (mini DCC station)

NOTHING is going between transformer and track. Track is the power supply. Everything is self contained in the locomotive.

Not directly related to the question here, but answer this survey

This is interesting to me as I like smaller steam locos and shoehorning in all the ERR and sound cards is challenging.

DCC components are smaller and offer many more sounds than the few Railsounds options making installs easier and providing different sound sets and all controlled by existing Cab1 sounds like a winner to me!

@Bruk posted:

This is exactly what I’m getting at. A board that goes into the engine. Converting input power into DCC signal for the decoder and acts as radio receiver to TMCC and mini DCC command station. Like Airwire and BlueRail.

Ok, my mistake. I must have missed that. This sounds like a wonderful idea and something that has been needed for some time now! I am ABSOLUTELY interested!

With the elimination of DCS, in OGauge, there are only the Lionel TMCC/Legacy and LC control systems  to consider interlinking which seems  appropriate and has been impressively accomplished. But in the DCC world, there are a plethora of control systems and DCC decoders, so what linkup arrangement would make sense?

@BOB WALKER posted:

With the elimination of DCS, in OGauge, there are only the Lionel TMCC/Legacy and LC control systems  to consider interlinking which seems  appropriate and has been impressively accomplished. But in the DCC world, there are a plethora of control systems and DCC decoders, so what linkup arrangement would make sense?

DCS is a clunky home made DCC system. Unfortunately its going to survive because of Atlas's last newsletter.

They ONLY "linkup" that makes sense is what I mentioned above. I will SAY it again.

"LIKE I SAID BEFORE. The best way going about this is almost the same concept of BlueWire and AirWire 900 from CVP products. Where you have a board that goes between the input power from the track in the locomotive to the DCC decoder in that same locomotive and that board responding to TMCC commands via the radio signal converting into DCC commands for the decoder. (mini DCC station)"

1. Track power/signal is not affected. It's there to supply power as normal.
2. This converter board is in the loco. Inline of the track power and DCC decoder.
3. The board takes the AC power from the track. Converts into Square wave DCC for the decoder.
4. The board will also act as the radio receiver and receiving those commands via TMCC signal.
5. The Commands via the 8 bit TMCC radio signal are translated into DCC commands.
6. Those commands are then sent to the DCC decoder on the output side of this converter board.
7. MAGIC now you can control DCC decoder with a TMCC remote.

All of this information to do this is public. @Ryaninspiron

@Oman posted:

Not directly related to the question here, but answer this survey

That poll means absolutely nothing to this thread.

DCC is not used in O gauge because everyone has been drinking the Kool-Aid since day 1. DCC is used in every form and scale of model railroading, and not in main stream O gauge because of that.

If you want your trains to make mostly inaccurate choo choo sounds and poor lighting effects that you have to beg the manufactures to "fix". Keep playing with ERR, Legacy and DCS.

@Bruk posted:

That poll means absolutely nothing to this thread.

DCC is not used in O gauge because everyone has been drinking the Kool-Aid since day 1. DCC is used in every form and scale of model railroading, and not in main stream O gauge because of that.

If you want your trains to make mostly inaccurate choo choo sounds and poor lighting effects that you have to beg the manufactures to "fix". Keep playing with ERR, Legacy and DCS.

Still interesting to see a little poll on the subject though. Funny enough that poll was asked a few days before you asked about the concept of bridging in the first place. One thing I will say is that my first ever experience with DCC was 17 years ago from Marklin and it blew me away with the sounds and feature control at the time. I still like the interactivity of the Cab though. I personally am now convinced you can run anything with the Cab2 and am even tempted to connect it to my home automation even for the laughs. Imagine closing the blinds with the whistle lever or the big red knob.

I am simply curious if there is any desire to see DCC run by Cab1/2s and the answer seems to be almost a even split between sure and not at all. Which is basically a good enough answer for me to start looking at the electrical aspect of it

@Bruk posted:

Id like you to elaborate on this.

The point of this integration is to be able to have the user perform basic control of a DCC decoder with a “inverter board” like BlueRail or the Airwire 900 from CVP products. These products can be used in a AC, DC, and Battery powered environment. These basic controls would follow: Direction, Speed & Functions 0-24.

Bit info for TMCC is public and found in the original user guide of TrainMaster command control manual on Lionels website. LEGACY/LC is not.

Programming CVs with these remotes is off the table at this point in time. To keep this less complicated.

If we can reach consensus that a module like that is in the best interest that is certainly an option. The only problem is while the Bit level info is available the process of decoding TMCC electrically is not.

I could however use my knowledge of LC to do it though. In theory making the DCC trains speak LC then use my gateway hardware to convert that to TMCC.

At the end of the day it is really adding Bluetooth to DCC locos and then using that to connect to the Cab2 via my existing conversion method.

@Landsteiner posted:

I somehow doubt there are very many folks wanting to control DCC locos with TMCC/Legacy/LionChief/DCS, so it would have to be for the challenge and pleasure of doing it, and not for any market I can imagine.  I suppose there are some with three rail O gauge who might like to control their DCC HO or N gauge locos with their cab-1, LionChief remote or DCS handheld, but I would think using a DCC remote would make more sense.  It's not like they are fabulously expensive.

Thanks for your feedback, I always feel like the challenge is where I have the most fun so may be reason enough to do it, I am happy to have any feedback though like this. Gives me a good show of hands with for it vs against it votes.

@Santa Fe 3751 posted:

Considering I do indeed run DCC and have the lionel cab remotes, I would love to see this happen. I do have a question and a thought.

If I am reading this correctly, there is going to be an "interface" that will allow a cab 1 remote to send commands to the dcc command station to operate locomotives. So is the "interface" going to be connected as an accessory device in the command system bus (loconet on digitrax for example)?

Now just a thought to put out there (or pipe dream, whatever you want to call it). DCC, as you know, is self destructive to any electronics that do not isolate the strange dcc waveform that is the signal. Therefore, no non dcc decoder equipped locomotives will last on dcc powered rails. This is an issue for many dcc users since its an "all or nothing" approach. What I shall throw out is, what about an interface board that receives tmcc signals, and outputs a dcc signal to control an individual dcc decoder? That way, the entire layout can be powered with straight, constant AC power. This would allow owners to install a dcc decoder with sounds and control they want, while controlling it, and the rest of their stock engines, with the classic cab 1 and TMCC.

In short, think of it as airwire, but instead of radio control and battery power, its tmcc and track power. Again, just a thought, as I have NOT tried this or have plans of doing so. But I figured if you were looking for feedback, I would throw out a couple of cents.

This is exactly the sort of feedback I was hoping to get, Your right on all that. I was thinking of interfacing with existing command systems but the challenge is each brand has a different method of integration making that a very difficult prospect. You mentioned digitrax for example but my only system at home is MRC Prodigy Avance^2 right there we are already faced with two totally different interface methods. Which is why I was starting to talk about a DIY controller to replace those systems as another option.

However you also cut right to the chase and raised the possibility of an onboard option. The only issue is as I just recently posted above, TMCC decoding is pretty closed source and most certainly would require expensive licensing to do with the same radio electronics that Lionel uses. Which is why I also raise the possibility of teaching DCC locos to speak LionChief and then use that to connect to my existing bridge project. How does that sound?

Also what scales did you have in mind. While it would be pretty straight forward to fit this onboard decoder stuff to G and O what about HO or N?

Maybe I should look into bridging bluerail itself in since they already have boards that theoretically fit into N scale.

@NYC Fan posted:

I've never been able to get DCS to work on my layout. I have a lot of MTH Premier locomotives that are now paper weights. I haven't bought an MTH engine since 2013. TMCC and Legacy work perfectly on my layout. Any solution that allows me to run those PS2 locomotives using either Legacy or TMCC would be a worthwhile investment for me.

Does PS2 Premier still have the DCC or DCS selector switch on them? I know PS3 does. Anyway if I want to keep the sounds in tact I should probably explore adding an onboard TMCC to DCC converter but as per my previous two posts. it might be a little complicated unless I use the Lionel R2LC board to listen to the TMCC signals first.

@BOB WALKER posted:

Here's my reasoning on why a bridge from TMCC to DCC is questionable.  Achieving interoperability between TMCC and LC is essentially the design of a link between system A and system B. In contrast, ea ch brand of DCC decoder offers a unique set of features and more importantly utilizes a particular approach to the all important management of CV's.  Also, each brand has its set of strong adherents. So which one do you choose for the link project? Not a simple decision.

Thank you for breaking it down like that and I certainly get the issues you raise. All good to consider. And certainly all the more challenging.

@BOB WALKER posted

With the elimination of DCS, in OGauge, there are only the Lionel TMCC/Legacy and LC control systems  to consider interlinking which seems  appropriate and has been impressively accomplished. But in the DCC world, there are a plethora of control systems and DCC decoders, so what linkup arrangement would make sense?

At this point adding DCS will only be for backwards support (enough to be worth doing for me) that way people can run their future TMCC1/2 based locos along with the DCS ones all from the Cab1/2. Having Personally bridged TMCC and LC thanks for that, and the question of what makes sense is truly the crux of this thread.

@Oman posted:

Not directly related to the question here, but answer this survey

Relevant enough to know who is already running DCC so thanks.

@Dave Funk posted:

This is interesting to me as I like smaller steam locos and shoehorning in all the ERR and sound cards is challenging.

DCC components are smaller and offer many more sounds than the few Railsounds options making installs easier and providing different sound sets and all controlled by existing Cab1 sounds like a winner to me!

Now to figure out the details as that is where the devil always lies.

@Santa Fe 3751 posted:

Ok, my mistake. I must have missed that. This sounds like a wonderful idea and something that has been needed for some time now! I am ABSOLUTELY interested!

Not so much that is was missed and more that it is something that was only brought up later on in the topic. but I agree it may be the best option considering how very diverse the control systems are from brand to brand.

@Bruk posted:

DCS is a clunky home made DCC system. Unfortunately its going to survive because of Atlas's last newsletter.

They ONLY "linkup" that makes sense is what I mentioned above. I will SAY it again.

"LIKE I SAID BEFORE. The best way going about this is almost the same concept of BlueWire and AirWire 900 from CVP products. Where you have a board that goes between the input power from the track in the locomotive to the DCC decoder in that same locomotive and that board responding to TMCC commands via the radio signal converting into DCC commands for the decoder. (mini DCC station)"

1. Track power/signal is not affected. It's there to supply power as normal.
2. This converter board is in the loco. Inline of the track power and DCC decoder.
3. The board takes the AC power from the track. Converts into Square wave DCC for the decoder.
4. The board will also act as the radio receiver and receiving those commands via TMCC signal.
5. The Commands via the 8 bit TMCC radio signal are translated into DCC commands.
6. Those commands are then sent to the DCC decoder on the output side of this converter board.
7. MAGIC now you can control DCC decoder with a TMCC remote.

All of this information to do this is public. @Ryaninspiron

You are right indeed but the question is how will I pull that in loco board in all the scales. or at least N and up.

As I recently mentioned though that while the protocol is out there. the Decoding electronics are locked behind a license that I imagine is not very cheap. but I have no idea on that part. Something I do have the resources to do now however might be to teach these locos to speak LionChief and then convert that to DCC onboard and TMCC via my gateway project. although even I would personally rather see a pure TMCC to DCC conversion too. It all comes down to how can I do it from a circuit design standpoint. maybe the TMCC license is actually affordable and therefore is worth doing. That would be the real home run in my opinion. At that point even I could design a circuit to do it since Lionel would theoretically provide the details at that point.

By the way as of about half a year ago I became a Lionel LCS Partner and I can assure you that the details of decoding the TMCC track and ground wire level signal are not even published there. Neither is LC for that matter but I didn't expect it either.

As someone that runs DCC and TMCC/Legacy on my 3 rail layout at home, here are my comments in no order in reply to things said thus far.

-PS2 does not have a DCC/DCS switch.  Only PS3 has a DCC option, and then most RailKing locomotives do not have the DCC/DCS switch, you have to open the locomotive and cut a wire to get it to respond to DCC and reconnect the wire to go back to DCS.

-DCS is not dead, it is not going away.  Atlas will now be making locomotives with it.

-You can not have TMCC locomotives on the same track as a DCC signal.  They either won't respond to commands or will take off at full speed.  Most Legacy locomotives will run okay, some things like electrocouplers don't work when a DCC signal is present.  Also the DCC signal can detune the Legacy signal so that the Legacy locomotives stop seeing it. LC locomotives don't seem to care if there is a DCC signal on the rail.

-The lazy me would love a board that I could put between the pickup rollers and the on board electronics of DCC locomotives so I can run them with the Cab1/2 remotes, but I would not like the loss of DCC functions that would have to come with such a setup, like loss of some Legacy functions when running them with a DCS remote.

-Having opened many locomotives I don't really see how an extra PCBA would fit in most locomotives.  None of my PS3 DCC running diesel locomotives would have room for this extra PCBA.

-What I rather see is easy drop in boards that I can buy that make it easy to connect electrocouplers and smoke units found in my MTH PS1/2 and Lionel conventional or old TMCC locomotives to DCC decoders like the ESU LokSound L or XL decoders.  I have a bunch of older locomotives that I want to convert to DCC but want to keep the remote couplers and smoke units functions in them without the current roll your own method.  Being able to wire a decoder output to a little board that I then wire my electrocoupler or smoke unit to would be a godsend for me getting these conversions done.

-I'd love to have DCC like keep alives I can add to my MTH PS3 and Lionel TMCC/Legacy locomotives to help with dead spots and dirty track.  Sure they have factory options to keep sounds going, but I want something that'll keep the motors going so they move past the dead/dirt spot on the track.

-I hate the remote collection (Thanks to Lionel LC) as much as the next guy, but I don't feel the need to have to have one remote to control them all either.  I am perfectly happy to run my DCC locomotives with my NEC Powercab, my Legacy locomotives with my Cab-2 and my TMCC locomotives with my Cab-1.  That's 3 remotes best suited for the 3 different command controls of the locomotives I have.  I don't run into any issues as I planned my layout for these options.  All my spurs remain unpowered until addressed, so I have a mix of all 3 locomotive types on my layout at all times.  Thus I have not had to worry about a locomotive seeing the wrong command signal.

@Ryaninspiron, Question:

"if" you decide to play with the DCC, where does this fall in the priorities?   ie Will working on this slow down your progress on the other projects you have started?  

@Casey_Jones posted:

@Ryaninspiron, Question:

"if" you decide to play with the DCC, where does this fall in the priorities?   ie Will working on this slow down your progress on the other projects you have started?  

Considering that DCC integration is indeed still an if, I would put it behind the work on the LC Gateway board especially since I would probably end up utilizing it's interface anyway.