Any updates on Lionel's 2016 Volume 2 Catalog?

superwarp1 posted:

BigJohn&theWork posted:

superwarp1 posted:

Peter Araujo posted:

Could the upcoming moguls either be LEGACY or LionChief?

Better be legacy or I'll pass.  Need a Rutland engine to pull my milk train

 

It IS legacy... but it doesn't appear to have whistle steam.

Wouldn't expect there would be room in such a small engine.  Bet it has a teather instead of wireless.  I know in the smaller engines Lionel has been talking about dropping the wireless teather due to power pickup issues/ground issues, which is fine by me anyway.  Better have the tender pickup rollers connected with the engine pickup rollers.  No dropping out over switches.

Stopped in at the LHS and picked up this really about nothing catalog.   I might be interested in the  GTW Mogul provided GTW actually ran this type of steam.  Need to check that out.   Price of $699 MSRP with Legacy translates to around $550 or less street price with no ugly tether puts it in a maybe I will category.  

***Update.., I guess I won't.    This is a Grand Trunk engine from New England, not to be confused with Grand Trunk Western from the Midwest...

Joe

TrainingDave posted:

...

I wish I was an insider like you, able to know Lionel's pricing structure and what they should be charging for products. I'm guessing you have the magic formulas they use? Or the magic dartboard? 

I'm sure you don't take any costs into consideration. Well I'm sure you take manufacturing costs into thought. But probably not tooling, facilities, insurance, shipping costs, tons and tons of overhead, etc etc. But none of those matter right? 

...

Oh, I'm sure all the components you mentioned matter.  I just don't want to always pay for all  of them -- particularly the "tons and tons of overhead" (which includes C-level executive salaries among other costs) factored into Lionel's inflated prices.    Sorry you don't like the analysis... the numbers don't lie. 

David

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

TrainingDave posted:

...

I wish I was an insider like you, able to know Lionel's pricing structure and what they should be charging for products. I'm guessing you have the magic formulas they use? Or the magic dartboard? 

I'm sure you don't take any costs into consideration. Well I'm sure you take manufacturing costs into thought. But probably not tooling, facilities, insurance, shipping costs, tons and tons of overhead, etc etc. But none of those matter right? 

...

Oh, I'm sure all the components you mentioned matter.  I just don't want to always pay for all  of them -- particularly the "tons and tons of overhead" (which includes C-level executive salaries among other costs) factored into Lionel's inflated prices.    Sorry you don't like the analysis... the numbers don't lie. 

David

What numbers exactly are not lying? You have MSRPs and street price to go off of. Other than that, how would you know their cost? How do you know how large Lionel is? How many C-level execs they have? I want to see your calculation sheet that proves their prices are inflated. Because frankly, your analysis means jack without real numbers and stats.

TrainingDave posted:

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

TrainingDave posted:

...

I wish I was an insider like you, able to know Lionel's pricing structure and what they should be charging for products. I'm guessing you have the magic formulas they use? Or the magic dartboard? 

I'm sure you don't take any costs into consideration. Well I'm sure you take manufacturing costs into thought. But probably not tooling, facilities, insurance, shipping costs, tons and tons of overhead, etc etc. But none of those matter right? 

...

Oh, I'm sure all the components you mentioned matter.  I just don't want to always pay for all  of them -- particularly the "tons and tons of overhead" (which includes C-level executive salaries among other costs) factored into Lionel's inflated prices.    Sorry you don't like the analysis... the numbers don't lie. 

David

What numbers exactly are not lying? You have MSRPs and street price to go off of. Other than that, how would you know their cost? How do you know how large Lionel is? How many C-level execs they have? I want to see your calculation sheet that proves their prices are inflated. Because frankly, your analysis means jack without real numbers and stats.

Keep drinking the Lionel Kool Aid, Dave.  Not sure why you're so upset with RockyMountaineer......other than the truth hurts, perhaps?

If you'd like some numbers, here ya' go:  look at the massive price difference between MTH's UP FEFs and Lionel's FEFs.  Take a look at the 2016 Lionel FEF price (outrageous, IMHO)  vs their own 2008 (reasonable) FEF price.  While we're at it, compare the $1,450 Lionel is trying to get for large, scale sized Legacy steamers.....to the $1,650 or so for the Vision Line Challengers from several years ago.  This delta is way below inflation.  And the U.S. dollar is actually stronger.

While you're doing your homework, take a look at Lionel's $80 box cars....and then compare that what Menards is charging, even though the latter is an inferior product.

Lionel's price increases over the past three years have been severe.  It's a free Country.  Lionel is free to ask whatever they like for their products and consumers are free to pay whatever they like for them.

But if you can't see when you're being fleeced on price, I can't help you.  But I can say that I think Rocky Mountaineer's points are spot on......and I bet his math (and mine) add up.

It never fails that every time a catalog is released we have to have a sermon about Lionel having the unmitigated gall to charge whatever.  Never mind that MSRP prices are totally meaningless unless it makes you feel better when you pay the street price.  If you feel you get better deals elsewhere, by all means, please go get them and spare the rest of us the same useless drivel every six months.  Or start a thread called "Let's complain about Lionel's prices."  Maybe Rich will have mercy on the rest of us and give it its own catagory.  

Berkshire President posted:

While you're doing your homework, take a look at Lionel's $80 box cars....and then compare that what Menards is charging.....

That peanuts to pineapples comparison is really helpful.

Here's some more homework. Take a look at what Mercedes is charging for its S class sedans....and then compare that with what Mitsubishi is charging. 

Lionel can charge whatever it wants. Really, it's about the old "whatever the traffic will bear." If they can manage ti sell stuff at these high prices, more power to them. Like many, I have a set amount budgeted for train purchases each year and now that amount doesn't go nearly as far as it used to. Which is good because I'm running out of room to store the things anyway.

Plus, you can always go back and buy previous years' production for much, much less than Lionel is asking nowadays. 

breezinup posted:

Berkshire President posted:

While you're doing your homework, take a look at Lionel's $80 box cars....and then compare that what Menards is charging.....

That peanuts to pineapples comparison is really helpful.

Here's some more homework. Take a look at what Mercedes is charging for its S class sedans....and then compare that with what Mitsubishi is charging. 

 

I mentioned that the Menards cars are clearly inferior.  It's merely an attempt to help quantify something that we don't have hard numbers on.  Materials, labor, shipping, packing, exchange rates, etc are built into the Menards prices.   

What Menards charges is a starting point....and nothing more.  Doubling that number is expected.

BTW: This was not an attempt to start a b*tch session.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

How about the Adams Family Legacy Breakdown Engine!  Runs 6 feet down the track, turns into a fireball of smoke and flame, never to run again!

Well played Gomez!

I hope there's Strasburg Railroad 89 in that catalog.  If not, maybe next catalog.

machinist posted:

Hi Everyone,

I'm suprised that none of the Pittsburgh contingent(the Union RR foamer types-like me!) have made mention of the Union RR NW2 that I spotted in the new catalog.   It looks like it's being done in the older gray/yellow lettering paint scheme,  but a couple of those survived into the mid-late 70's in that paint.   I'll have to take a closer look at this engine as a new option,  considering that Atlas keeps delaying their Union RR MP15DC's.

Nick

I too will be interested in one of these switches providing that the price is reasonable $350-$360 and that the engine can negotiate O-36 switches. 

I like seeing that the NW2s have fixed pilots and Kadee mounts.  Is this Lionel's first 3RS diesel?

trainroomgary posted:

Does anyone know how these Lionel 2016, Catalogs Volume 2 are making there way onto the "Big Bay" for sale?

I could guess, Lionel has a problem with their printing company?

Gary

I think I know what happened. The same day the photos turned up here on the forum, I got an email saying that my LHS had them on the counter for sale. That was last Thursday, a full week before the official release date of Sept 1. My guess is the distributors sent them out to the dealers early. Not sure why Lionel is sticking to their date, cat's out of the bag.

Ready to Roll in Miami got ten cases of catalogs this morning

That peanuts to pineapples comparison is really helpful.

What!  did I miss lunch again! dang.

 You can bash Lionel but they are the ones pushing the envelope now a days. 

Peter Araujo posted:

I hope there's Strasburg Railroad 89 in that catalog.  If not, maybe next catalog.

No Strasbourg 89.  The 2-6-0 road names are Everett Railroad, B&M, Central Vermont, Rutland, and Grand Trunk.

Vinny26 posted:

Trainlover9943 posted:

Vinny26 posted:

John Pignatelli JR. posted:

I could not make out the price on the NW 2 switchers, anyone know the cost of these?

John

The NW2 switchers are 499.99

Nice! I'm in for at least the NYO&W hopefully they don't cancel it like they did back a few years ago when they made the NW2s. 

Catalog mentions all new tooling on the NW2 with fixed pilots 

Thanks guys. Now witch one do I get? B&O or PRR hhmmm...

John Pignatelli JR. posted:

Thanks guys. Now witch one do I get? 

I don't think you can go wrong with any of these.

Well the latest Lionel catalog has not "technically" been released yet, so this forum is ahead of schedule with regard to the usual rants about price and cost.  That's my cue to avoid this scene for a month or so.  The benefit of whatever information I would have learned is not worth the inflammation caused by weeding through the posts.  Insult to injury, I block the usual suspects and then someone quotes their whiney dissertation within their reply....DOH!  I have better things to do with my time!

DaveJfr0 posted:

Norm Charbonneau posted:

I like seeing that the NW2s have fixed pilots and Kadee mounts.  Is this Lionel's first 3RS diesel?

No, the Alco S2/S4's were fixed pilot as well. I may actually get one of these at some point if they turn out well.  Hopefully they will have the 3D printed test model (I am assuming they do this for everything now) out at York.

They are not set up with ready to go Kadee mounts though...

I am thinking this might be the first Lionel engine set up with them.

Look, if you don't like the prices, the C level exec salaries, the overhead, blah blah, then why bother even complaining every time a catalog is released?  This is getting really old.  We all know the dog and pony show that some of you don't like to spend more than $100 for a Vision Line product. I get it.  And yes, you have freedom of speech to express your opinion.   Could there be a pro-MTH and anti Lionel hidden message?  Sure but just come out and say it.  I don't care who's math is right unless you are Lionel's CFO you cannot say for certain anything is over priced and not worth it.  You don't know how much R&D money Lionel is spending or invested and neither do I.  One thing for certain is I know they are gonna have to recoup that cost somehow just like a biotech company has to with break through drugs.  I for one like Lionel and love all the latest and greatest features they have on their trains.  If part of my purchase pays the new CEO that steers Lionel into the right direction for another 100 years for my kids to enjoy then so be it.  Bottom line is if you can't afford it and you are bitter or not the type to spend more than$100 in this hobby, please don't be passive aggressive and constantly drum up reasons why Lionel prices are always, always, always inflated.  Just enjoy the darn hobby.

How can you enjoy a hobby if one cannot afford it?  This might be a question Lionel and the others companies need to think about.  Maybe what companies need to do is pay the Chief exec entry pay, and at the end of the year the BOD determines ANY increase.  Look at Amtrak's new CEO for an example!

How much are the sd70ace's?

"the 1950's Lionel Nw2 was out of scale on the hood to shoehorn in the Pulmore motor".

I thought that too - and this would apply to the WBB, also - but I seem to recall doing a measurement and finding that the WBB hood width fell within production model accuracy parameters. 

Maybe I'll have to measure/check my plans again. Not that I care - the WBB looks handsome and correct-enough to me.  

Dominic Mazoch posted:

How can you enjoy a hobby if one cannot afford it?  !

You just have to enjoy the part that doesn't include shelling out $500-$2000 for an engine.  

Hey, Guys

Patrick's Trains will have the LIONEL VOL.2 2016 Catalog up on our site WWW.PATSTRAINS.COM AT 12.01AM  08/31/2016. Our pricing will be very competitive.

Thanks

Pat

PATRICK'S TRAINS

142 29TH STREET

WHEELING WV 26003

304-232-0714

WWW.PATSTRAINS.COM

E-MAIL PATSTRAINS@AOL.COM

Dominic Mazoch posted:

How can you enjoy a hobby if one cannot afford it? 

I agree, the prices (especially for engines) are out of hand, I mean lets be honest, would you pay $650 for a S-2 Switcher or $2,699 for a Vision Big boy? (I know the engines aren't in this catalog but you get the picture, sadly it's only going up from here) I feel like these prices are all marketing gimmicks. Say what you want to but that's my opinion. A lot of other people, feel the same way. Watch the end of my review on my Uncle's vision Big boy and you'll see what I mean. I hope there's some nice freight cars in the catalog. 

Something esle I should add. I've gotten deals on engines before like $250 for a Atlas CNJ 0-6-0 and $300 for a Lionel N&W C-420. These prices are how the new engines should be I think. 

Wow, this thread has become a multi faceted Discussion going in every Direction but somehow has Derailed? Yes, The New Lionel Catalog is a Celebration in its own way. For a Second Edition (Addiction) it's Great. There are offerings for all three rail enthusiast in some shape or form. Price, it just depends on the Value Perceived. In my opinion, If prices seem high on the New Side, just wait for someone here to offer them on the For Sale Forum. Now, I am waiting for my Wish Book, to come in the mail....Happy Railroading...

"new tooling on the NW2"

That about covers the issue of pricing.  Lionel is the only company making new tooling in any quantity.  Tooling costs have skyrocketed from what we have heard due to labor costs in China.  If you don't like Lionel's new tooling prices, and higher overhead for whatever, there is plenty of old tooling being repainted by other suppliers at somewhat lower costs.  Something for everyone .  Even the obtuse garment renders and hair pullers. 

By the way, unless I am mistaken, Mike Wolf used to and perhaps still does drive a fairly high end Mercedes. Thus the C-level salaries over there apparently aren't all that impoverished.  Not criticizing his choices,  just pointing it out.  Does Howard Hitchcock driver a Ferrari or Aston Martin?  I'll bet he doesn't.  If I recall correctly, Mike Reagan drives a large pickup truck.  

Criticizing the salaries of these tiny companies is truly an exercise in ignorance, misplaced jealousy and futility.  None of these people are getting really rich in this industry.  You can take that to the bank (screwy metaphor intended).

breezinup posted:

John Pignatelli JR. posted:

Thanks guys. Now witch one do I get? 

I don't think you can go wrong with any of these.

I have Halloween on the brain,   I want all three of the above, fixed or not fixed pilot. I do not care which witch is delivered first. 

Landsteiner posted:

...

By the way, unless I am mistaken, Mike Wolf used to and perhaps still does drive a fairly high end Mercedes. Thus the C-level salaries over there apparently aren't all that impoverished.  Not criticizing his choices,  just pointing it out.  Does Howard Hitchcock driver a Ferrari or Aston Martin?  I'll bet he doesn't.  If I recall correctly, Mike Reagan drives a large pickup truck.  

...

Wow.... talk about this thread going in all kinds of unexpected directions...  I had to double-check which web-page I was on when I read this post.  I thought my browser found its way to TMZ.com or some other celebrity gossip website. 

Funny how Lionel seems to sell there products no matter the price, especially now with (BTO).

MTH has not put out any new models in the last 4 years (or more), just the same locomotives over and over, using the same old tooling .  The only new announcement from them is the 44 tuner and there's no sign of that yet!! (going on 4 years)  Its no wonder MTH's prices are low, how many times have they made there money back on that old tooling.  Plus what new features have you seen from MTH??  Mike talked about whistle steam and swinging bell about ten years ago, said it would come out in HO first then in O gauge.  Have you seen it yet??  NOPE!!

New tooling, new features, additional detail adds to the cost of these products.

And as far as Menards products are concerned aren't they the same as the old Lionel products that everyone on this forum complained were toy like and lacked detail?? 

I hope there's a set of E-6's,  Lionel  is overdue.

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Wow.... talk about this thread going in all kinds of unexpected directions... 

Yeah, it's great. Hang on.

So youve reduced this thread about Lionel's new catalog to villianizing people for making money?

Landsteiner posted:

If I recall correctly, Mike Reagan drives a large pickup truck.           

Someone got this shot of Mike's pickup in the Lionel parking lot.               

Berkshire President posted:

breezinup posted:

Berkshire President posted:

While you're doing your homework, take a look at Lionel's $80 box cars....and then compare that what Menards is charging.....

That peanuts to pineapples comparison is really helpful.

Here's some more homework. Take a look at what Mercedes is charging for its S class sedans....and then compare that with what Mitsubishi is charging. 

 

I mentioned that the Menards cars are clearly inferior.  It's merely an attempt to help quantify something that we don't have hard numbers on.  Materials, labor, shipping, packing, exchange rates, etc are built into the Menards prices.   

What Menards charges is a starting point....and nothing more.  Doubling that number is expected.

"BTW: This was not an attempt to start a b*tch session."

Does anyone have to try to start a b*tch session on social media?

That's funny.  Just watching the news and bullets flying everywhere.  Why not here??  Ha.

What are the new accessories?

BigJohn&theWork posted:

...

The only new passenger cars are an additional Broadway limited 2 pack and 2 additional freedom train 2 packs. I imagine I'll be getting both freedom train 2 packs as I've got the rest of it on order already. The disappointing part is that they'll probably be making all of the passenger cars at once given that the ones announced in 2016 C1 aren't even on the shipping schedule. ...

Speaking of "shipping schedule"... did anyone else notice the number of items shifting to later in the year???  Stuff like the Allegheny's and SD60E's, etc... now showing a Nov 2016 delivery.   And the T-1 steamers along with the VisionLine GG-1's are now showing a January 2017 shipment (unless Santa works a miracle which is always possible).

And the passenger cars are mysteriously still MIA on the schedule.  I have my eye on that multi-color Penn Central 21" set, but those cars -- like the UP Excursion cars -- are nowhere to be found on the schedule yet.   

David