Arbor Press Follies

There are different size diesel wheels (axle hole diameter) bet you had the wrong one. Lionel did have a axle sleeve for separate sale for repairs, that might be the liner you see.

+ what Chuck posted. Check to see if you bent the axle. If you put a micrometer on the center of the axle I can match you an axle and wheel set.

I've seen factory installed wheels with cracked hubs. There is a good chance that the wheel is fine.

Lionel did have a axle sleeve for separate sale for repairs, that might be the liner you see.

I am not familiar with that part.
Did it go in between the wheel and axle to tighten the wheel?
Or did it go in between the axle and it's hole through the truck frame / locomotive chassis?

Chuck Sartor posted:

There are different size diesel wheels (axle hole diameter) bet you had the wrong one. Lionel did have a axle sleeve for separate sale for repairs, that might be the liner you see.

The axle measures 0.186". It is the same as two other complete (used) wheel & axle assemblies I have. Measuring the splined end of the same shaft was a bit problematic, but appeared to be 0.169" when measuring the peaks of the spline.

A #20 drill bit was a near perfect fit through the offending wheel, while a #19 didn't want to pass. The #19 bit measured  about 0.004" smaller than the splined end of the shaft. So I carefully drilled the wheel hole using the #19 bit. I was surprised to small see metal shavings from the drilling effort, instead of dust from what I assumed was a sintered iron wheel.

The drilling effort worked, a fairly close fit, maybe a tiny bit looser than what I would have liked ... so Mr. Loctite 242 stepped up to the plate. All appears to be well and tight now, but I still need to understand why this happened - I would prefer NOT to repeat this again.

The pic above was taken at a slight angle, so the worm gear appears to be off center - it's not. It is dead on center now, with no more than about 0.002" of side play, thanks to the spacer. Spacer was needed to preserve the original wheel gauging, stop the side play, and help center the worm gear directly under the armature worm.

C W Burfle posted:

I've seen factory installed wheels with cracked hubs. There is a good chance that the wheel is fine.

You were correct in your estimation about the cracked hub. Using a wheel puller, I slowly backed the cracked-hub wheel back into its "normal" position and felt smooth, continuous resistance all the way. It felt tight when I was done.

Time will certainly tell. If I'm rolling down the track and a wheel comes flying off and hits a miniature spectator at the station, I'll know right where to look!

Be aware that when installing a new, unused wheel, sometimes the axle will push deeper into the wheel that is already mounted, instead of going into the fresh wheel.
If that starts to happen, I switch out the wheel cup on the side that has the already mounted wheel and use either an axle punch or a flat anvil. If you do this, it is important to make certain everything is square / centered.

C W Burfle posted:

Be aware that when installing a new, unused wheel, sometimes the axle will push deeper into the wheel that is already mounted, instead of going into the fresh wheel.
If that starts to happen, I switch out the wheel cup on the side that has the already mounted wheel and use either an axle punch or a flat anvil. If you do this, it is important to make certain everything is square / centered.

Point taken! Although the wheel I was installing was used, the situation you described is exactly what happened!

Once I had backed the axle out of the already mounted wheel, and had drilled out the new wheel, I used a ball bearing (from a bicycle repair) to place in the handy-dandy, small depression in the center of the bottom wheel cup, then placed the already mounted wheel in that cup. It served exactly the same purpose as the axle punch you described, and it remained nicely centered and allowed the wheel to sit down in the cup to keep things nice and square.

CW,

 what I was referring to is P/N 600-8404-040 (still available from NLTW). It is meant specifically for loose turbine wheels, but may be used in other applications. I was thinking maybe that is what Geopeg may have found in his wheel.

Geopeg,

 You may have to remove the added spacer washer, some side play is necessary so the armature does not lock-up in the worm gear in reverse. If it does, that is the problem.

I always check to see where axle is in relation to wheel hub end before starting.  I also learned long ago that if the force seems to great, stop and find out why.  Usually something is not right.

I also always use  backing plate to prevent axle from moving out of the good wheel already on the axle.

Frankly I have done wheel installs with a vice and a selection of normal sockets and small piece of steel stock to hold the good wheel and axle in position. 

If an axle drives too far, a punch and some light taps to realign, making sure you are not resting against the chassis bearings.  This is where knowing what the gauge and free play was before starting is important.  G

Once I had backed the axle out of the already mounted wheel, and had drilled out the new wheel, I used a ball bearing (from a bicycle repair) to place in the handy-dandy, small depression in the center of the bottom wheel cup, then placed the already mounted wheel in that cup. It served exactly the same purpose as the axle punch you described, and it remained nicely centered and allowed the wheel to sit down in the cup to keep things nice and square.

Clever! I am going to try that next time.

Chuck Sartor posted:

Geopeg,

 You may have to remove the added spacer washer, some side play is necessary so the armature does not lock-up in the worm gear in reverse. If it does, that is the problem.

Who knew?!?! Now I do, thanks!

GGG posted:

I always check to see where axle is in relation to wheel hub end before starting.  I also learned long ago that if the force seems to great, stop and find out why.  Usually something is not right.My gut told me to slow down and figure out what's going on, but the little kid in me said, "Use a bigger hammer!"

I also always use  backing plate to prevent axle from moving out of the good wheel already on the axle.

Frankly I have done wheel installs with a vice and a selection of normal sockets and small piece of steel stock to hold the good wheel and axle in position. 

If an axle drives too far, a punch and some light taps to realign, making sure you are not resting against the chassis bearings.  This is where knowing what the gauge and free play was before starting is important. Fortunately I had taken those measurements before hand! Thanks for the tips.

George

If I may ask -

What is a "drilled arbor press"?

Just curious . . .

Thanks!

Alex

Ingeniero No1 posted:

If I may ask -

What is a "drilled arbor press"?

Just curious . . .

Thanks!

Alex

I bought a cheap arbor press from Harbor Freight and had a machinist friend drill the 3/8" end hole in the ram, and three holes (two 5/8" and one 1/2") in the rotating base plate, all for mounting press tools.

The same friend also took a length of (metal) rod and made two new collared bushings for staking the motor field to the top plate on a 600 series diesel. He threaded the fat end to accept the original screws used to secure the brush plate, and made it "hollow rivet" style on the opposite end so it can be staked to the bottom-side of the top plate - fits absolutely perfect! Said he could make more if others might need these - I haven't been able to find them anywhere else.

Use arbor press at work every once in a while. Seems like you spend two hours setting up, and 10 seconds doing the press.

Short story is you need to press only on the two things that need to move in relationship to each other. Anything else and uh oh. One time they pressed on the outer race of a bearing when attaching to a shaft, and the bearing got ruined. Change of tooling that pressed on the inner raise solved that.

Use arbor press at work every once in a while. Seems like you spend two hours setting up, and 10 seconds doing the press.

I've been using a model train press for over thirty years. It usually doesn't take more than a few moments to mount the tools and do the work. The longest part is choosing the right ones.

I use my press mostly for rivets and eyelets. The hardest part of those jobs is getting the old rivet out. 

C W Burfle posted:

I've been using a model train press for over thirty years. It usually doesn't take more than a few moments to mount the tools and do the work. The longest part is choosing the right ones.

OK, save me the time, please! Which tools would you use to press in a couple of rivets that hold the plastic side frames on the motor truck? They are 480-19 rivets.

Boy, I'd like to read how other folks rivet side frames back in place on those motor trucks.

I think you are correct, a 480-19 rivet will work, but you will probably want to put a washer on the end before you clinch it. The rivet is a bit too long, and cannot be clinched tightly. (At least I couldn't get it tight). Some Lionel motor assemblies have a rivet there, others do not. I think I used a #2 washer, not positive.

If not 480-19, then 480-20. I'd have to do a test-fit.

I find that there are two problems setting this rivet.

First: finding an anvil that will fit the head of the rivet.

On one side there isn't much clearance between the field windings and the rivet head.  and on the other side there is often part of the plastic truck side sticking up.
I don't have any anvils that will fit into that space. They would also have to be quite long.

Second: reaching down into the space next to the truck side to reach the rivet to clinch it.

None of the standard length rolling clinchers are long enough.

Answer:

I select a metal piece from my pile and clamp it in my wood vise in such a manner that the truck will stay upside down, with the rivet resting on the metal piece. This is my anvil.

I use a #9L rolling clincher, which is custom made by Jeff Kane (Train Tender) to make the clinch. I use a soft faced hammer to hit the back of the tool.

It is important not to use a hard faced hammer on the back of the tool. Some say they can shatter. I don't know about that. I do know that if you distort the tool or put a burr on it, it is likely to get stuck in your press.

By the way, I have long clinchers made by a few different outfits. The one Jeff Kane makes is by far the best.

Hennings offered a tool holder that will take any of the tools that fit the ram. They seem to be gone from the site.  I have one, but have not used it yet. Old habits die hard.

C W Burfle posted:

Boy, I'd like to read how other folks rivet side frames back in place on those motor trucks.

I think you are correct, a 480-19 rivet will work, but you will probably want to put a washer on the end before you clinch it. The rivet is a bit too long, and cannot be clinched tightly. (At least I couldn't get it tight). Some Lionel motor assemblies have a rivet there, others do not. I think I used a #2 washer, not positive.

If not 480-19, then 480-20. I'd have to do a test-fit.

I find that there are two problems setting this rivet.

First: finding an anvil that will fit the head of the rivet.

On one side there isn't much clearance between the field windings and the rivet head.  and on the other side there is often part of the plastic truck side sticking up.
I don't have any anvils that will fit into that space. They would also have to be quite long.

Second: reaching down into the space next to the truck side to reach the rivet to clinch it.

None of the standard length rolling clinchers are long enough.

Answer:

I select a metal piece from my pile and clamp it in my wood vise in such a manner that the truck will stay upside down, with the rivet resting on the metal piece. This is my anvil.

I use a #9L rolling clincher, which is custom made by Jeff Kane (Train Tender) to make the clinch. I use a soft faced hammer to hit the back of the tool.

It is important not to use a hard faced hammer on the back of the tool. Some say they can shatter. I don't know about that. I do know that if you distort the tool or put a burr on it, it is likely to get stuck in your press.

By the way, I have long clinchers made by a few different outfits. The one Jeff Kane makes is by far the best.

Hennings offered a tool holder that will take any of the tools that fit the ram. They seem to be gone from the site.  I have one, but have not used it yet. Old habits die hard.

 

 

That is exactly the kind of information I was hoping for!

I just happened to have some #2 washers, I also have a long, flat-faced drift punch that will probably work as an anvil if I watch the positioning after each gentle blow with my leather hammer. I don't have Jeff's 9L tool, but I will certainly order one on my next order. In the meantime I will make an attempt with a center punch (augh!)

It appears that if I flip the rivet over (head on the bottom of the sandwich) and clinch from the top, the whole operation might go easier - not the way they did it at the factory, but it would functionally hold just as well.

Eyeballing things (and using calipers) it looks like I might not need a #2 washer, but based on what you have experienced, I will use one - like another lad said, they are harder to remove than to place!

Thank you! I owe you once again!! You're almost up to a toasted cinnamon crunch bagel from Panera Bread!

It appears that if I flip the rivet over (head on the bottom of the sandwich) and clinch from the top, the whole operation might go easier - not the way they did it at the factory, but it would functionally hold just as well.

Eyeballing things (and using calipers) it looks like I might not need a #2 washer, but based on what you have experienced, I will use one - like another lad said, they are harder to remove than to place!

LOL, it just so happens that the last time I had to mount a diesel truck side, I forgot the washer. The clinch was sloppy so I took it apart. I was so disgusted with the repair, that I used a black #2 screw and black nut to mount the truck side, along with a drop of thread locker.
You cannot see the repair when the engine is assembled and on the track. It isn't even that noticeable if you pick up the loco and look at the bottom.

I may have filed down the head a bit so it wouldn't interfere with anything.

When you said that the 480-19 rivet was too long to mount the side frame, I though I would look around and see if I could find a similar but shorter rivet.   The 480-19 is a tubular oval head rivet with a shank diameter of 0.085".  As designed by Lionel this rivet has a black oxide finish.   The length under the head is 0.206".  The 480-20 is similar, but the length under the head is 0.290".   The only other rivet I could find in this family of rivets is 3464-19. It is also a black oxide finish by design. The length under the head is 0.158".  That one sounds promising if it is not too short.

Similar, but not identical rivets , would have more of a truss head without the flat on the edge of the head, but the same shank diameter.  Here I found 41-69 with the length under the head of 0.146" and 600-16 with a length under the head of 0.187".  These are both nickel plate. 

I was surprised to see that Brasseur Electric Trains actually had the 3464-19 in stock with the black oxide finish. Lionel actually applied the black finish at their factory.  They would buy the rivets bright and finish them themselves. Rivets purchased finished usually had a nickel or chrome finish.  The Brasseur rivets might actually be new old stock. 

This indormation comes from engineering standards.  What was actually purchased or used may very, especially if it is a reproduction or modern Lionel part.   Double check to be sure this information matches the hardware. 

When you said that the 480-19 rivet was too long to mount the side frame, I though I would look around and see if I could find a similar but shorter rivet.   The 480-19 is a tubular oval head rivet with a shank diameter of 0.085".  As designed by Lionel this rivet has a black oxide finish.   The length under the head is 0.206".  The 480-20 is similar, but the length under the head is 0.290".   The only other rivet I could find in this family of rivets is 3464-19. It is also a black oxide finish by design. The length under the head is 0.158".  That one sounds promising if it is not too short.

Thanks.

I've noticed some errors in the Lionel factory standards documentation that Bob released.

I have never seen a slide shoe with a black oxide rivet. Nor have I seen replacement slide shoe rivets offered with a black finish, including slide shoe repair kits I purchased from Madison Hardware about thirty years ago. Don't know about the rivets, the slide shoes were original Lionel.

If I don't have those other rivets on hand, I will have to see about getting some.

A press isn't much good if you don't have rivets and such to make the repairs.