Are pre order necessary?

Kind of depends on the item. With higher-end locomotives, it's probably a very good idea to pre-order. Ditto for certain rolling stock items. Probably less need to pre-order most accessories, although there may certainly be some exceptions (very hard to determine what will or will not be in high demand).

I am not a fan of pre-ordering, but have learned through experience in recent years that if I really want something, I had darn well better place an advance order with my dealer.  I must also add, though, that I have also been pretty darn lucky in finding "sold out" items when I'm willing to take the time to do some thorough searching. Got lucky in that regard just recently, in fact.

I always pre-order when possible because it ensures I will get the items I want.  While there have been times I have waited thinking a specific item wouldn't be popular only to find out they were sold out and I missed the boat.

Pre-ordering from places like Mr. Muffin, is painless because they don't take any money up front and invoice you when your items come in.  I have never not gotten anything I pre-order from Mr. Muffin.

Yeah that's what I figured too. I was kind of hoping the dealers would order a bunch and have some in stock for the next few months. Guess I got to try and swing this purchase.

Certainly depends but I'd say yes.

Current example: I had my eye on the Legacy 2-6-0 steamers (Central Vermont) and associated Rutland and CV milk cars when cataloged. I held off on a "wait and see" method before shelling out close to $1k on a train, especially with the "variety" in Lionel's quality and delivered products (see Lionmaster Challenger and 0-8-0 cruise control debacle).

I asked my dealer if it was still possible to order a few and per his distributer, he reported that he could not get anymore and I better aggressively hunt with some of the larger dealers. I have my eye on Trainworld's website now, vs my LHS, as they have listed everything I want on their website and looks like it will be available for sale upon delivery regardless of preorder.

It's a crap shoot.  If an item you want isn't popular you will usually find it at one of the bigger dealers.  If the item turns out to be a keeper those extra few will go fast.  Gone are the days when a dealer will order many extras or there will be a lot of them sitting in a warehouse.

While some will moan about Built to Order and the need to preorder sticks it to the dealer, only if the dealer doesn't know his customer and orders a ton extra, it does keep the manufacturer from needing to blow out the remaining inventory because in theory all the items built are sold sans a few extras for parts.

I never pre-order anymore. I want to see the actual product before I buy it. Got burned too many times.  

I pre-order almost everything. My LHS is not a large store like some of the big dealers and many times they don't even order one of something I want. So if I really want something I pre-order. Many of the large dealers might order extras of a lot of items. 

Your pre-order also helps to make sure that the item is even made, which could be important to everyone getting the item. Sometimes they will cancel an item if they do not have enough orders for a profitable manufacturing run of the given product. That's the only problem I have ever had with a pre-order, one item was cancelled by the manufacturer due to an insufficient number of total orders.

Where are those items in the 2017 catalog?

I always pre-order everything, usually within a week or two of when the catalog goes public. then I sit back and wait as the goodies come trickling in. As a matter of fact, I just got a notice that something is on its way. I have no idea what it is, just that it weighs 4 lbs. Christmas all the time.

Most of the larger dealers don't require any deposit for pre-orders, but if money is tight, you could probably arrange with them to make payments sort of like the old "lay away". By the time things show up, you have it paid for.

There is a deadline for pre-orders, that is the date when dealers have to have their orders into the manufacturers. It is also when you get the best pricing. So there is an incentive to pre-order.

No. Larger dealers i.e. Charles Ro orTrainworld always have extras for at least several weeks after the item reaches the store.

I'm done with preorders. The discount which is much smaller than it was a few years ago isn't worth the risk of something not being delivered as described, or defective etc.

Lionel has been all over the place with descriptions vs the actual product.

My j3a Hudson with incorrect spoked drivers instead of boxpoks is no exception. Plenty of these hudsons are still available for $150-$200 LESS than the best "better preorder it or you'll miss out" price.

Elliot,

My LHS lets me slide on the deposits, but they require them for a lot of folks. I buy almost everything there and they appreciate it and still give me the pre-order discounts. If I have a lot of pre-orders at one time, I sometimes do as you say and will pay things down or pay them off before they come in. That way I don't get hit with a massive bill all at once. I actually kind of like doing it this way. This also helps a great deal in not getting the rolling pin (solid maple!) to the back of the head if a certain other person by chance happens to see the credit card bill and catches me without my helmet on! 

I always pre order.  On items like Lionchief, you can always find those.   I understand how guys/gals want to see an item.  I would just stick to whatever works and stay with your plan.

If it's something you REALLY want, by all means pre-order it.  But NEVER put money down - there are plenty of places that don't require a deposit, and given the long lead times, you never know if a dealer will go out of business before an item arrives.

I pre order if I really want a piece or it is something I have been waiting for someone to make in a road name I want. Other than that I'll wait and see if I like something that comes out but if I miss out no big deal I'll probably find it down the road at some point. 

So do ya feel lucky??? 

Seriously, whether you pre-order or not really depends on the importer:

Sunset / 3rd Rail / GGD:  ABSOLUTELY required.  There's little to no established dealer network, so you're ordering direct from the importer.  And they really seem to build to their pre-orders.  Occasionally, some cancellations may result in a few extra items sitting in inventory for a bit.  But generally speaking, you'll be out of luck if you don't pre-order.

Atlas-O:  If you REALLY want something, pre-order it... as they've been known to cancel production of certain roadnames if the pre-orders aren't there.  Unfortunately, Atlas-O has entered a period of unusually lengthy production delays -- especially for locomotives.  So expect to almost forget that you've pre-ordered something when the dealer notifies you that your items have FINALLY arrived.    Dealers do seem to order a few extra's above and beyond actual customer pre-orders.  So you can take your chances that way, if you prefer seeing and hearing the production model.  But don't wait too long.

MTH:  Best to pre-order something that you REALLY want.  But know that the pre-order price may not be the absolute lowest you'll see.  Dealers having 15% off "sales" with free shipping can save you hundreds if you time the purchase right (and you're a bit lucky).  Generally speaking, the MTH dealer network is large enough that you should have no trouble finding what you need after MTH delivers.  But for something really special -- for me, it was the Rocky Mountaineer diesel locomotive in the last catalog -- it was worth it to pre-order rather than miss out... Or worse yet, discover that MTH cancelled the locomotive for insufficient orders.  What I'm REALLY hoping for on this one is that MTH will follow up with an entire Rocky Mountaineer SET (another loco with 7 or more high-level passenger cars in this paint scheme) in the next catalog.  After all, why just produce a special locomotive like this if you can't run the entire train?  So this was definitely worth a pre-order to help provide the incentive necessary for MTH to produce the whole enchilada.   

Lionel:  The importer with the largest well-established dealer network makes it almost completely unnecessary to pre-order ANYTHING.  Several of the large national dealers tend to order PLENTY of extra inventory -- even the higher end BTO items.  I think we're good for several more catalog cycles doing the watch-and-wait game for Lionel items -- especially since Lionel's track record for delivering items exactly as they're catalog'd hasn't been the best in recent years.  Of all the importers, I'd say Lionel needs to work hardest to bolster its reputation to better deliver what they illustrate in the catalog.  Too many disappointments lately.  Truth be told, I pre-ordered one of the upcoming Shay's because I love that locomotive so much and wanted a Legacy version AND got a super great pre-order price below Lionel's MAP.  But that's the pre-order exception more than the rule for me.  Now I pretty much wait for delivery -- and even at that, only VERY selectively purchase anything Lionel nowadays if it's really something unique/special.  Their MSRP's are ridiculous, and typically I wouldn't want to purchase anything Lionel unless dealers are offering one of their "15% discounts with free shipping" sales.  Those sales bring the price closer to where it should have been in the first place.  I just wish there was a better way for Lionel to take the hit on pricing, rather than have the dealer lose margin.  To date, NOT ONE Lionel item I've had my eye on has sold out before delivery.  So if you're on a tight budget, just wait for the big discount sales... and have fun going on a shopping spree! 

David

My thoughts on the higher end steamers and diesels, especially VisionLine engines, one should pre order.  By going into retirement next year, and soon, within the next few years, to move to a new location, having to actually sell my home and let the railroad go, I will have to be very selective about what I buy. I will then visit my friends that have amazing layouts and make the fellowship of my friends top priority...It is the Worlds Greatest Hobby....

Short answer: yes

A preorder might help the manufacturer's decide to make an item or not.  If preorders are insufficient it may get shelved for production till they place it it in the next catalog.

Of course. Sometimes you can get a better price from what I have heard, but that depends on what they price it for from the get go.

Even simple non-scale toy like items can be a challenge to obtain sometimes (or they gain in popularity for unknown reason after release).

Years ago, there was a series of short passenger cars painted for the North Pole Central Christmas theme.  It started with a 3 car set meant as an "add-on" to go with a freight set that was released the year before.  It expanded to a set of eight cars, with each named for Santa's 8 reindeer (Rudolph not included , probably because MTH had a license for that classic show with a starter set and some add-on cars produced).

The point is that 2 of these cars were vista dome cars, one partial, one full.  Both command ridiculous prices on eBay each year for what was probably a less than $40 MSRP car when it was released. (though may be a bit seasonal, one went for exactly $40 recently - or maybe these have finally come back down)

This is just a single example, there are others that would go the other way where someone would be lucky to be able to sell an item for 30% of what they paid for it with a pre-order.

So as others have said, it comes down to how much you want something.  If you only want the things that don't appreciate in value, you are good without doing pre-orders.  If you only want things that become "hot", you probably should pre-order them.

Since it's obviously impossible to determine that at the time, it's easier to categorize your desires into the "must haves" (pre-order these) and the "nice to haves" (only pick these up if they are available for a good deal after they ship).

-Dave

Yeah Dave45681 I agree. What you want, and what you need becomes a hard thing to separate sometimes. In my younger years of collecting, the Big Boy was something that I wanted(back in the late 90's). Well, never got it and frankly, it just doesn't seem like something I want or need. I know it is one of the most desirable engines for a decent majority, and I do like the UP, but not on my list. I am more interested in the FEF's and the Challenger, those would be what I would go after if there wasn't something else that came on my list of need(Dreyfuss Hudson being a big need). See what tickles your fancy, and what just plumb don't matter.

Dave45681 posted:

...

This is just a single example, there are others that would go the other way where someone would be lucky to be able to sell an item for 30% of what they paid for it with a pre-order.

...

This is a topic for another thread, but what you're describing happens more often than not.  I recall when full vista dome's first came out in Lionel's 15" passenger car line-up (with window silhouettes).  The first one was "hot" and escalated in price quickly.  Then when the second one came out -- in SP Daylight colors if I recall correctly -- folks bought multiples of them, thinking the same escalated price pattern would ensue.  W-R-O-N-G!!!    Nobody expected those SP Daylight full vista domes would be OVERPRODUCED.  Consequently, dealers couldn't give them away -- even years after they hit the streets.  They turned out to be just a run-of-the-mill offering that never approached the price premiums of the regular vista dome car and dining car in the same set.  Go figure. 

David

I look at my train purchases more like a round of golf. Not worth much when you are finished playing.

That is unless you are on the PGA tour and actually win one every now and then. I'm no where within miles of that. Bet I could beat them all on HIGH score and/or number of lost balls though! 

SJC posted:

Certainly depends but I'd say yes.

Current example: I had my eye on the Legacy 2-6-0 steamers (Central Vermont) and associated Rutland and CV milk cars when cataloged. I held off on a "wait and see" method before shelling out close to $1k on a train, especially with the "variety" in Lionel's quality and delivered products (see Lionmaster Challenger and 0-8-0 cruise control debacle).

I asked my dealer if it was still possible to order a few and per his distributer, he reported that he could not get anymore and I better aggressively hunt with some of the larger dealers. I have my eye on Trainworld's website now, vs my LHS, as they have listed everything I want on their website and looks like it will be available for sale upon delivery regardless of preorder.

I had the same issue with the B&M - waited too long. If you come across that model, please shoot me an e-mail and if I come across a CV or Rutland, I'll let you know. You also might want to give James or Nick at Charles Ro a call. I might be wrong or it might now be gone, but the last time I was in the store, I thought they had one CV or Rutland that was not spoken for.  

I see no reason to preorder anything. If I miss out on an item there is so much out there that I can buy.  There is not one item in the modern era that I can't find eventually, maybe not at the price I would like to pay. 

Scale, non scale there will be no shortage of trains for many years, I intend to enjoy them. 

Dave

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

I always pre order.  On items like Lionchief, you can always find those.   I understand how guys/gals want to see an item.  I would just stick to whatever works and stay with your plan.

I am with Marty on this.  First, the best part of the process are the catalogs themselves. I think they are amazing and usually I want everything, like a kid. I enjoy the on line version and the hard copy, which is mailed to me, from my good friends at Eastside Trains.  For years, all I could afford were the catalogs.  Then it's putting a list together,  and determine what I would like and what the cost will be.  I check the OGR forum,  sometimes I miss something.  I don't rush it, eventually I get to a final list the call in the order or go in person.  Sometimes I may get  lower price.  

The preorder allows you to buy at a lower price.  I usually find one BTO item and a few other things, but in the 2017 vol 1 catalog from Lionel, I ended up getting the Green Alco set. Someone will probably find fault with the color.    

Richie C. posted:

SJC posted:

Certainly depends but I'd say yes.

Current example: I had my eye on the Legacy 2-6-0 steamers (Central Vermont) and associated Rutland and CV milk cars when cataloged. I held off on a "wait and see" method before shelling out close to $1k on a train, especially with the "variety" in Lionel's quality and delivered products (see Lionmaster Challenger and 0-8-0 cruise control debacle).

I asked my dealer if it was still possible to order a few and per his distributer, he reported that he could not get anymore and I better aggressively hunt with some of the larger dealers. I have my eye on Trainworld's website now, vs my LHS, as they have listed everything I want on their website and looks like it will be available for sale upon delivery regardless of preorder.

I had the same issue with the B&M - waited too long. If you come across that model, please shoot me an e-mail and if I come across a CV or Rutland, I'll let you know. You also might want to give James or Nick at Charles Ro a call. I might be wrong or it might now be gone, but the last time I was in the store, I thought they had one CV or Rutland that was not spoken for.  

Thanks - there is a TMCC B&M on eBay now if that is something you'd be interested. I'm sticking to the "want to see/hear reviews on it first" motto. Based on the larger dealer websites, I don't doubt I'll be able to grab one. I'm after the CV. Would like to also get at least two of the CV and one Rutland milk car. Again, waiting and watching on this one. 

Don't want to commit to something like the plastic gear LC+ diesels, cruise control lacking steamers, etc. 

Brewman1973 posted:

 

 but in the 2017 vol 1 catalog from Lionel, I ended up getting the Green Alco set. Someone will probably find fault with the color.    

Ain’t it the truth?

Actually, glad you mentioned that item, Dave. It’s the ONE item I’ve preordered in the last year. Looking forward to seeing those Alcos and the green passenger cars running on the layout.

I'm of the it’ll-get-here-when-it-gets here school but last time I looked several months ago I think Ro had it as a NOV 2017 arrival.

I pre-order if I REALLY want the item.  Unfortunately (fortunately?) there has been nothing lately that I really wanted.  

I try to support my LHS as much as possible, so I have no problem with deposits.

Is life insurance necessary?  

CAPPilot posted:

Unfortunately (fortunately?) there has been nothing lately that I really wanted.  

I look at that one as 'Fortunately' !!  The last several years have really been hard on me and it's been nice to get a breather recently!