My whole thing about starting this topic is have we fell into the hype we have to do anything to get the newest piece even if we sell something for much less than we paid for it or even a reasonable price for used. And lately have people stopped even buying at rock bottom prices
At some point I realized I had plenty of engines and sold off ones I really did not need. Now I'm focusing on all the scenery on my layout and that is expensive in itself. Trees alone are a fortune and you need tons of them. So after only 7 or 8 years I have maxed out and my big purchases have gone way down. After spending 30,000 on trains I think I'm good. Plus in that short time engine prices have gone way up. I have plenty of trains to keep me busy. Only special items I really like get purchased anymore. Honestly, it's just too much money for stuff I really do not need. I now only buy 1 engine a year and only if I find something I really really like, not just because it's new or BTO and supposedly limited, which we have seen is not necessarily true. Now this is not my only hobby, I'm into cars and racing so that cost money too. So if trains are your only hobby then you may have more to spend. For me the prices are just going too high for some of these trains for me. I'm much more selective as a result.
SandJam posted:... After spending 30,000 on trains I think I'm good. ...
Nahhh.... sounds like you're just getting started!!! 
fl9turbo2 posted:My whole thing about starting this topic is have we fell into the hype we have to do anything to get the newest piece even if we sell something for much less than we paid for it or even a reasonable price for used. And lately have people stopped even buying at rock bottom prices
I only buy if it's rock bottom!
fl9turbo2 posted:My whole thing about starting this topic is have we fell into the hype we have to do anything to get the newest piece even if we sell something for much less than we paid for it or even a reasonable price for used. And lately have people stopped even buying at rock bottom prices
It's the same no matter what hobby/sport you get into.
Take golf, every 6 months they come out with a new $400 driver or new $60 balls that are a must have.
I recently bought 2 Atlas cars from Petersen Supply. They were more than I've ever paid for rolling stock, but they were something I wanted (not needed) and couldn't find elsewhere.
GGD has plans for a Seaboard Air Line Silver Meteor. Expensive, maybe, but nobody has or will ever make one that is as accurate and nice as this is going to be.
IMO most of the "hype" is generated right here on forums like this, self-induced (if you don't believe me, read the last sentence above LOL!). (but is it hype when it is true???)
Lots of bidding on new and old!
Premier/Legacy are too expensive. I rarely buy them. If Lionel would develop a cheaper version of their Legacy locomotives I'd switch over from RailKing. I don't believe you can run LionChief+ from the Legacy remote. Either way, I have slowed down in my purchases. Is every hobby this expensive? LOL.
I plan on being around the 30 engine mark someday .I am around 20 now. Just really waiting on a few pieces. Smokeing whistle j would be one I want. A legacy l3 or l4 Mohawk ..
Well my dad bought me stuff new and I payed him for it till this year. Bought my first engine. Originally supposed to be engines, had two Railking ES44ACs GE Demos, but to me shipping rates getting moved 8 times drives me nuts. So cancelled the order and bought a Lionmaster Challenger. I am so excited to get it and can't wait for it to get here.
I usually don't buy anything brand new from a dealer, this will be my first and maybe !y last for a while. I had to hide my debit card and credit card so I am not tempted to use it.
Mostly everything is bought at train shows, swap meets and from Menard's.
I usually don't buy anything brand new from a dealer, this will be my first and maybe !y last for a while. I had to hide my debit card and credit card so I am not tempted to use it.
I got my first real credit card shortly after getting my first full time, post college job. I ran the balance up to the point where it took me over a year of significant payments to get the balance back down to zero. When I realized how much interest I paid, and how much the stuff I purchased really cost me, I resolved never to run a balance again (unless there was a true emergency). So far, there haven't been any such emergencies, and I've kept that resolution.
I bought my first new, from a dealer engine yesterday. It will probably be a long time before I do that again. I went with Rail King for the value. I paid $40 below MTH's MSRP.
C W Burfle posted:I usually don't buy anything brand new from a dealer, this will be my first and maybe !y last for a while. I had to hide my debit card and credit card so I am not tempted to use it.
I got my first real credit card shortly after getting my first full time, post college job. I ran the balance up to the point where it took me over a year of significant payments to get the balance back down to zero. When I realized how much interest I paid, and how much the stuff I purchased really cost me, I resolved never to run a balance again (unless there was a true emergency). So far, there haven't been any such emergencies, and I've kept that resolution.
Tim,
That is really good advice.
If at all possible, you want to use a credit card only as a substitute for cash. Pay your balances off immediately so that you don't have finance charges. A 1.5% monthly APR turns out to be 18% interest over the course of a year. Yeah, 18%. So that $800 engine you bought and paid off over a year's time really cost you $944. Ouch.
George
G3750 posted:C W Burfle posted:I usually don't buy anything brand new from a dealer, this will be my first and maybe !y last for a while. I had to hide my debit card and credit card so I am not tempted to use it.
I got my first real credit card shortly after getting my first full time, post college job. I ran the balance up to the point where it took me over a year of significant payments to get the balance back down to zero. When I realized how much interest I paid, and how much the stuff I purchased really cost me, I resolved never to run a balance again (unless there was a true emergency). So far, there haven't been any such emergencies, and I've kept that resolution.
Tim,
That is really good advice.
If at all possible, you want to use a credit card only as a substitute for cash. Pay your balances off immediately so that you don't have finance charges. A 1.5% monthly APR turns out to be 18% interest over the course of a year.
George
My credit card doesn't get used unless it is an emergency. I told my dad if I get my card from its hiding spot he can take a box of trains as a ransom.
Bob Delbridge posted:... Take golf, every 6 months they come out with a new $400 driver or new $60 balls that are a must have.I recently bought 2 Atlas cars from Petersen Supply. They were more than I've ever paid for rolling stock, but they were something I wanted (not needed) and couldn't find elsewhere.
...
Wow!!! I'm glad I gave up golf decades ago. I still have my set of clubs, so I could play a round or two to be social if the need ever arose. But I think the whole set might have barely cost $400 back in the day -- you know, when drivers were still made of real wood. 
As for buying from Petersen Supply... You will not find a more sincere dealer/seller out there. Andy ranks up there on my short list of really nice people. Just recently I purchased several Atlas-O special-run Great Northern boxcars from Andy to round out my GN roster. All in all Andy had 10 GN boxcars made by Atlas-O, and I had started the series back at the beginning. But then got distracted as some of life's other responsibilities kicked into high gear for several years. When I finally got around to ordering again, a couple of the boxcars were no longer available. So when Andy shipped the ones he did have, he wrote a hand-written note thanking me for my order and mentioning he'd keep an eye out for the two cars I missed. You just don't see that level of personal service these days.
David
fl9turbo2 posted:... And lately have people stopped even buying at rock bottom prices
That's when you KNOW the market is super-saturated!
We see that everyday right here on the forum. It took me almost 6 months to sell my Lionel 18" Santa Fe high-level Superliner cars. They were literally as MINT as the day they left the factory -- never even came out of the Lionel product boxes. All seven cars too including the StationSounds diner.
The set was one of the few items I've listed here over MSRP -- simply because I knew the market value of the diner and two-pack add-ons on the open market. Yet some sellers here on the forum have trained buyers to think they'll always give stuff away at fire-sale prices. 
Finally, someone purchased them, but a few months went by without even an offer. That really surprised me.
David
Rocky Mountaineer posted:Wow!!! I'm glad I gave up golf decades ago. I still have my set of clubs, so I could play a round or two to be social if the need ever arose. But I think the whole set might have barely cost $400 back in the day -- you know, when drivers were still made of real wood.
As for buying from Petersen Supply.............when Andy shipped the ones he did have, he wrote a hand-written note thanking me for my order and mentioning he'd keep an eye out for the two cars I missed. You just don't see that level of personal service these days.
David
Same here David and that was my first order from them! Going along with this topic I want to say I'm trying to find quality over quantity these days. I have a 4-8-2 coming soon which will round out my wants for engines and other than trying to acquire a couple of pieces of rolling stock for RRs I want represented on my layout (I'd like to get a Mississippi Central boxcar) I'm more or less done:
LOL, not sure what my latest driver is made of but the club head is so big it feels like I'm trying to swing a cinder block on a rope (I have managed to keep under $300 though)
Attachments
fl9turbo2 posted:My whole thing about starting this topic is have we fell into the hype we have to do anything to get the newest piece even if we sell something for much less than we paid for it or even a reasonable price for used. ...
I'm absolutely convinced Lionel factors this hype into their current inflated prices for new stuff. They know their target market consists of guys who already have more trains than their grandkids could ever enjoy. So they're EXPECTING folks to sell older stuff to fund purchases of the newer stuff. A lot of guys purchased their VL Big Boy that way. It's all part of the smoke and mirrors game Lionel has become very creative at playing.
David
I for one, don't fall into the "Hype Trap." It is highly unlikely I will be buying any new trains for a while. I feel like pricing is getting way out of line for the average hobbyist such as me. I also am getting very disappointed in the direction some of the manufacturers are going with product focused too much on "realistic scale" products. That's all well and good for the Scale Modeler. Which seems a bit interesting as this, for the most part is a three rail operating environment. Last I looked, I haven't seem too many prototype railroads operating three rail trains. Anyway, I digress.
This pricing as currently manifested, has driven me to the used market. admittedly, I am able to find a lot of product of interest to me. So that's where I have landed. So be it. I will seek out what is of interest to my Railroad Interests and carry on as such. I will work within my budget and won't go into any kind of debt to add to my model railroad. I will maintain my primary focus on 1950's style railroading and key in on the Rock Island and Nickel Plate railroads.
I love a lot of he modern technologies and am quite satisfied with Legacy, DCS and TMCC operating environments. Lionchief and Lionchief+ just doesn't cut it since it is another tangential operating system as far as I am concerned. BTo is too much of a risk taking adventure to me, especially at the current price points.
GREENRAIL posted:... Lionchief and Lionchief+ just doesn't cut it since it is another tangential operating system as far as I am concerned. ...
Agreed. I see Lionchief in the catalog and just page right over it without giving it a second glance. Not even on my radar screen. I don't understand the Lionechief strategy at all.
David
Rocky Mountaineer posted:GREENRAIL posted:... Lionchief and Lionchief+ just doesn't cut it since it is another tangential operating system as far as I am concerned. ...
Agreed. I see Lionchief in the catalog and just page right over it without giving it a second glance. Not even on my radar screen. I don't understand the Lionechief strategy at all.
David
Me either. I understand trying to get lower cost trains to the "Masses." But, adding a non-compatible system below TMCC/Legacy, seems a bit odd. with all the long term investments in TMCC and subsequent Legacy development, One would have thought that perhaps low cost TMCC installation would have been feasible. Look at the basic MTH Sets, they are upwardly compatible with the remaining DCS architecture.
This would be especially true when one would imagine that the costs of TMCC development would have been amortized long ago. Even moreso when other Manufacturers have licensed the product in thier lines (i.e. AtlasO).
I am much like you David, I don't even give the Lionchief/Lionchief+ line a second look. I don't need another oddball operating remote control with which to deal.
with me i have found a common thread on here people have become more selective in there desire, and with many they have reflected on what they have not the next big thing i think people are just asking for a break for the wallets, its like these manufactures think we will just do whatever it takes for the next thing. What makes the last thing bad now, what makes someone just dump it for the next piece i have struggled to find this out. Its like buying a car you dont go to a dealer and say i will buy that at any price, You study it and wait for the right time you wait for the best deal, But you dont sell the farm for it, And i think these train manufactures dont understand that
I understand Lionchief. It is about entry point. I want to pick up a Lionchief set for my 4 year old. Right now, I only have conventional operation. I want to move to DCS, I've bought two locomotives DCS capable, but even if I have that on my system, a Lionchief remote fits perfectly in a little hand and is super simple to operate for my son. When he had the opportunity to run one at the LHS, he was happy as a pig in slop.
GREENRAIL posted:... BTo is too much of a risk taking adventure to me, especially at the current price points.
For me it's the recent price hikes that are much more the turn-off than BTO itself. Other importers have been BTO all along.
I could be wrong, but I think Lionel's latest catalog -- as good as it was in terms of product breadth -- is gonna be a bust on pre-orders. Although I'm sure the forum sponsors competing for pre-orders here will tell us otherwise. 
Folks are tired of $1300-$1700 MSRP's for non-articulated steam locomotives. Even after selling older equipment to fund new purchases AND still being reduced to buying just one new locomotive at those prices, folks feel like they should be getting a lot more for their money.
Should be interesting to see how the dust settles.
David
Rocky Mountaineer posted:Agreed. I see Lionchief in the catalog and just page right over it without giving it a second glance. Not even on my radar screen. I don't understand the Lionechief strategy at all.David
I believe they are trying to establish a cheaper entry-level system that allows individuals to have a few of the newer options. You don't have to buy the expensive Legacy system but still get a few bells and whistles. If I could run LC+ and Legacy from the same system I'd be all-in. Unfortunately, that option doesn't exist.
On a side-note, I always feel weird using a remote that looks like it was made for a 5 year-old. I really do like the look and size of the locomotives. The prices are comparable to RailKing, which I like.
I can't see myself ever spending over $500.00 on a locomotive. The mere thought of over a grand on a locomotive turns my stomach.
i belive you are right i think its time people protest with there wallets we have voiced our concern about prices for years and nothing then maybe someone may understand that you can have supply and damand but at some point in time people will have to say i had enough
Basil posted:I understand Lionchief. It is about entry point. I want to pick up a Lionchief set for my 4 year old. Right now, I only have conventional operation. I want to move to DCS, I've bought two locomotives DCS capable, but even if I have that on my system, a Lionchief remote fits perfectly in a little hand and is super simple to operate for my son. When he had the opportunity to run one at the LHS, he was happy as a pig in slop.
Don't get me wrong. I get the whole entry level thing. I think its a great way to attract the younger generation into the hobby. I just wish, Lionel would have given more thought to it and used existing technology architecture, i.e. a simplified TMCC compatible remote, similar to what MTH offers in heir entry level train sets.
It is a block for me as far as ever considering LC/LC+ for my layout. I will stick with TMCC/LEGACY and DCS. I am what I am.
Either way, I hope your children catch the bug. It's what kind of drove my life's choices over the years. I ended up a professional Railroader for over 36 years, thanks to my Original Marx and Lionel Train sets when I was young.
Panther97 posted:Rocky Mountaineer posted:Agreed. I see Lionchief in the catalog and just page right over it without giving it a second glance. Not even on my radar screen. I don't understand the Lionechief strategy at all.David
I believe they are trying to establish a cheaper entry-level system that allows individuals to have a few of the newer options. You don't have to buy the expensive Legacy system but still get a few bells and whistles. If I could run LC+ and Legacy from the same system I'd be all-in. Unfortunately, that option doesn't exist.
On a side-note, I always feel weird using a remote that looks like it was made for a 5 year-old. I really do like the look and size of the locomotives. The prices are comparable to RailKing, which I like.
at least mth did there railking with dcs and kept one system with lower priced locos that if you wanted to move to scale it did not mean you had to change your control system. If lionel would have put legacy in there lionchief products they would be better sellers
As for me yes, because of being selective and having other financial commitments right now.
Many here have made very good points regarding market saturation, etc. Don't get me wrong, the manufactures have made multiple items of interest available that are on a wish list, but I need to stay focused. (My daughter getting ready to start college will help with that! lol...)
In the mean time, I will continue to read these topics here, watch the market and catalogs, admire the work of others here who can and are happy to share with the rest of us, and keep dreaming of the day that I can really pursue this hobby the way I would like.
fl9turbo2 posted:at least mth did there railking with dcs and kept one system with lower priced locos that if you wanted to move to scale it did not mean you had to change your control system. If lionel would have put legacy in there lionchief products they would be better sellers
I agree. Although, part of me likes the way Williams is proceeding with the direct Bluetooth locomotives. I like the fact you could simply operate your diesel without a transformer or wifi adapter.
I definitely see where Lionechief/Lionelchief+ plays to the entry-level market -- especially kids. But the biggest negative -- at least as I understand it -- is there's no path to Legacy (or even TMCC) from Lionechief. Folks can't grow into TMCC/Legacy after entering the hobby with Lionchief. That's a HUGE short-coming. Am I missing something?
David
Rocky Mountaineer posted:I definitely see where Lionechief/Lionelchief+ plays to the entry-level market -- especially kids. But the biggest negative -- at least as I understand it -- is there's no path to Legacy (or even TMCC) from Lionechief. Folks can't grow into TMCC/Legacy after entering the hobby with Lionchief. That's a HUGE short-coming. Am I missing something?
David
If it's meant, as you understand it, David, "mainly for kids" and they can't "can't grow into TMCC/Legacy ... with Lionchief" -- possibly Lionel has never envisioned or meant it to be a "growing" platform but rather simply a reasonable cost entry level RC beginner's platform which kids today want and they and their parents can afford. As far as growing into TMCC/Legacy from it, realistically, how many of today's kids will do that anyway? Certainly as tweens and young teens they personally can't afford nor will the majority of their parents pay for Legacy systems for their youngsters, and anyway the majority of adolescents with Lionchief trains will soon find the allure of model railroading diminishing as their teen interests move into other areas followed adulthood with the eventual demand of beginning and raising a family and the large amount of income families require. So by the time their children have grown and those parents once finally have more disposable income, even if they were eventually to gravitate back to model railroading, any electronic features of today's trains whether tmcc, legacy, or Lionchief will be certainly be obsolete by that time anyway.
It's likely, Lionel never planned for Lionchief to be a platform leading to growth to more expensive train systems but rather a just system for the now and present to sell to youngsters and their parents to enrich Lionel's profits today!!!
I have been in the O gauge hobby for over 30 years now, and have accumulated more trains than I can ever have on the layout and on display. The importers are mostly rereleasing models and not investing in much new tooling. I am waiting for a very select few items that I will buy when they are made and that's pretty much it. I have way more trains than I ever dreamed of as a kid, and I am content.
I still buy mostly on the secondary market . My wife is always telling me my basement looks like a train store. She doesn't like how I took over half the walk in closet of our bed room for my best locomotives.These days I have a patient attitude. If I get it fine and if I don't thats fine too. I feel lucky I have been able to get what I wanted. John
Everyone's situation is different, so there are no wrong answers here. Everyone has their own system of determining needs & wants, value and cost. I really love O gauge model trains. If I see an item I like, if it's cost relates to my perceived value and I have the funds, I'm going to buy it. Life is too short not to enjoy it.
I try to stay with a favorite 5 or 6 different railroads.
Now at about 50 to 60 or so engines I still look and if I see something I like I go for it. 
Right or wrong I pay close attention to the original MSRP and date manufactured.
Shortly I will go to York for the first time only for Thursday. I'm going to try very hard not to go totally nuts in the candy store.
Already my wish list is totally ridiculous.
Larry
Larry,
First time to York and you will TRY not to go nuts. Good luck with that and I'd love to see how "sane" you remained when you first walked into the big halls. ��
Ed
It all comes down to what you like - for me, it is Std. Gauge Christmas Tinplate, then the larger Std. gauge trains, period. If it is something that I want in my collection, sometimes it doesn't matter what the price is. Seems like in new Std. gauge tinplate, items on ebay lately are either way over-priced or things rather common.
The way newer items are being put out, you never know whether to preorder or not; without guaranteed orders, some really nice items never get made. Then when you do preorder an item, you may find it shortly thereafter all over the place for much less .
The new Super 381 full set is upwards of $3,500.00, but if there are less than 50 or so made, I think it really becomes something truly collectible. To me, it was something I couldn't pass up. Remember, value is not what you think it's worth, but what someone else will pay you for it. If you are like me and never going to sell it, you never have to worry about it.
Today's train market is in very different than it was 30 years ago. Back in the 70's and 80's the baby boomers were younger and very motivated to buy. Those were also very prosperous times for most of us and disposable income was abundant. Today the same audience is in their 50's ,60's, and 70's and factors such as health, old age, retirement, relocation, downsizing and even end of life all factor into the total available market. We are also in a severe recession now and as pointed out, the demographic of those that buy the trains is changing; many have purchased all the trains they will ever need (or even use) and few are entering the hobby. IMO, its a challenging time for the model train market that is and the people who will spend thousands for a Chinese engine is probably very small. Of course the hobby will continue on, but I see the market niche on the low end thriving. The attendance numbers at TCA E.D. York over the next five years should tell the story.
I understand the ever present angst over high prices, value, etc.
As has already been said, value is totally different to each buyer. If you have the money and like the item then that is great that you can get it.
I am confident though that in the long long run, the market will make the necessary adjustments to price vs. value. Eventually the glossy catalogues and marketing tricks will go stale and the market will adjust the prices.
If in doubt about the market controlling things, take notice of the big success of Menard's in just a very short time. Great product, price and service from day 1. Obviously they are not anywhere near a Lionel or MTH, right now. But also remember Mike Wolfe started with next to nothing as did Jerry Williams. I am definitely enjoying seeing a brand new company filling in the void for truly affordable trains.
Ed
