Some of my LC, LC Plus and FC engines are now available with Bluetooth. Rather than outlay the cash to purchase the same locos which now are equipped with Bluetooth I'd prefer instead to save money by adding Bluetooth capability to those older LionChief, LionChief Plus, and FlyerChief locos. Is such an option available from Lionel or an after market company?
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No, not that I know of.
Nope
Out of curiousity, why do you want to convert to bluetooth?
Your only option for upgraded Bluetooth control is to scrap the existing electronics and install BlueRail.
H1000 posted:Your only option for upgraded Bluetooth control is to scrap the existing electronics and install BlueRail.
Bluerail is for DC and DCC. You have to make your own AC to DC converter to use it.
In reality the Lionchief boards replace either an electronic e-unit and sound board or a TMCC and sound board. Lionel sells replacement boards.
I'm looking into this as I have a conventionally controlled Christmas Mike that the sound board has gone bad on.
The LC+ Mikes use the same motor from what I can tell. So I've contacted Lionel to see what parts I would need to convert it. If they don't cooperate, I'll just see if I can figure out what parts / wires / connectors I would need and give it a shot on my own.
When you look at the conversion, you need a board with speaker, motor, light, and smoke output at a minimum. You wouldn't be able to use the coupler output unless you add the coupler.
Electronic e-units have these outputs, ERR boards have these outputs, TMCC / Legacy boards have these outputs.
It's just a matter of figuring out what connectors / wires you'd need and if you need to change from incandescent to LED or vice versa.
I think you've forgotten the tach reader on the motor and the slotted flywheel that drives it. We are talking about LC+, right?
Quietman posted:H1000 posted:Your only option for upgraded Bluetooth control is to scrap the existing electronics and install BlueRail.
Bluerail is for DC and DCC. You have to make your own AC to DC converter to use it.
Well, yes, but it doesn't seem more difficult than what you are suggesting. They even have a tutorial for it on their website.
http://bluerailtrains.com/2017...rail-ac-track-power/
George
Hi guys, as a newcomer to the hobby I don't have the engines that y'all have with advanced sound and functionality and have built my roster of mainly conventional engines, the youngest one being circa mid-2000s. That's gotten me started on the rest of the equation which will be a better layout and upgraded power (my transformers are 50+ years old). Since I know electronics in other areas and have wielded a soldering iron on many occasions I think that to get some of my old locos upgraded to BlueRail would cost less than $100 each. Seems to me to that a smart device will quickly supplant the handheld (with all those buttons) and nice to see Lionel is looking at that, and MTH already has the WiFi interface to a smart device. The engines won't be any cheaper, unfortunately, but it does make things a heck of a lot more efficient. Don't want your kids using your $600+ iPhone, give them a simple handheld that looks like LionChief's and they can run most all functions.
Interesting comments. I've converted eight locos to BlueRail and all work beautifully. They have been demonstrated at a number of club meetings. My grandkids all have smartphones and can work them better than me. I acknowledge that there is still something nice to pushing the throttle on a transformer. But, time and technology march on.
BOB WALKER posted:Interesting comments. I've converted eight locos to BlueRail and all work beautifully. They have been demonstrated at a number of club meetings. My grandkids all have smartphones and can work them better than me. I acknowledge that there is still something nice to pushing the throttle on a transformer. But, time and technology march on.
I thought you might be the Bob Walker they refer to on their site. Nice article!
This product seems very cool and has lots of potential. Do you have any running on battery power? Battery powered locos would completely change how 3 rail o gauge operates. It opens lots of possibilities. If they were powered with lithium batteries, they could run a long time between charges and not lose much charge if they sat for a while.
George
George S posted:BOB WALKER posted:Interesting comments. I've converted eight locos to BlueRail and all work beautifully. They have been demonstrated at a number of club meetings. My grandkids all have smartphones and can work them better than me. I acknowledge that there is still something nice to pushing the throttle on a transformer. But, time and technology march on.
I thought you might be the Bob Walker they refer to on their site. Nice article!
This product seems very cool and has lots of potential. Do you have any running on battery power? Battery powered locos would completely change how 3 rail o gauge operates. It opens lots of possibilities. If they were powered with lithium batteries, they could run a long time between charges and not lose much charge if they sat for a while.
George
This was talked about. Smoke units and longer consists would greatly shorten the battery life.
Lionel does have some battery operated sets that geared more towards young kids. Probably not built the same as regular o gauge but it is a starting benchmark for battery life.
So when using LionChief, LionChief plus or even Bluerail are there any issues to circuitry that may change track polarity to reverse train direction? I'm thinking primarily HO DC as I was considering a simple polarity change to reverse direction in a back-and-forth. I'm thinking this is not an issue. Not sure about AC, E-unit and how that's treated in such systems and engines.
Of my eight BlueRail conversions, three are AC track powered, two are DC track powered and three are LiPO battery powered. Performance with each of these power modes is identical. Loco direction is controlled entirely by the BlueRail app.
Bob Walkers comment 'Time and Technology March on' is so very true but
sometimes (many??) very difficult to get an older persons psyche around.
An excellent statement nonetheless!
What I was considering was using Bluerail in a Bachman On30 4-4-0 loco that has no sound presently so needs at least a sound card which is $70 to $100+. I'd use it on a layout as a narrow gauge circuit but would want it to do back-and-forth and just let it run, providing animation and sound in the background. There is a plethora of back-and-forth circuitry out there but they either change polarity or, as far as I can tell, dip voltage as is the case of conventional. I know there are some sensors that do this for DCC. A Bluetooth track presence sensor linked to the Bluerail app and some software changes would work but that's not available yet. I would use a conventional power supply for the track power, don't have DCC. Thoughts on how to implement this in Bluerail?
Kirk R posted:What I was considering was using Bluerail in a Bachman On30 4-4-0 loco that has no sound presently so needs at least a sound card which is $70 to $100+. I'd use it on a layout as a narrow gauge circuit but would want it to do back-and-forth and just let it run, providing animation and sound in the background. There is a plethora of back-and-forth circuitry out there but they either change polarity or, as far as I can tell, dip voltage as is the case of conventional. I know there are some sensors that do this for DCC. A Bluetooth track presence sensor linked to the Bluerail app and some software changes would work but that's not available yet. I would use a conventional power supply for the track power, don't have DCC. Thoughts on how to implement this in Bluerail?
You definitely do not need DCC to use Bluerail. They talk about DCC, because the board will plug right into a DCC equipped engine. I believe On30 is two rail DC, correct? If so, you can use track power and you don't need to convert the power going into the Bluerail board.
Here is a link for the installation:
http://bluerailtrains.com/2017...-installation-guide/
If the engine is DCC ready, it's plug-n-play. If the engine is conventional, you cut the DCC connector off and wire directly to motor, lights and power pickups.
George
I think the proof is in the pudding. Will just have to try it out and see what happens. If anyone has a way to demonstrate how to do it I'd be much appreciative.
BOB WALKER posted:Of my eight BlueRail conversions, three are AC track powered, two are DC track powered and three are LiPO battery powered. Performance with each of these power modes is identical. Loco direction is controlled entirely by the BlueRail app.
Does BlueRail include some form of cruise control?
Kirk R posted:I think the proof is in the pudding. Will just have to try it out and see what happens. If anyone has a way to demonstrate how to do it I'd be much appreciative.
Can you post the model number of your engine? Also, if you post a picture of the internals, we could point out which wires to connect.
George
George/RoyBoy let me take a closer look at the innards of my On30 engine and I'll probably reopen this discussion under a separate topic as we strayed from OGaugeGuy's original topic. Only fair.
RoyBoy posted:BOB WALKER posted:Of my eight BlueRail conversions, three are AC track powered, two are DC track powered and three are LiPO battery powered. Performance with each of these power modes is identical. Loco direction is controlled entirely by the BlueRail app.
Does BlueRail include some form of cruise control?
I believe the engine you are upgrading has to have cruise control if you want it. The Bluerail board does not connect to any type of tach reader. For conventional engines, Bluerail controls the voltage and seems to have some options to smooth or tune the power curve, however this is not the same as true cruise control.
George
Kirk R posted:George/RoyBoy let me take a closer look at the innards of my On30 engine and I'll probably reopen this discussion under a separate topic as we strayed from OGaugeGuy's original topic. Only fair.
Sounds good. BTW, there is a list of compatible Bachmann On30 engines on the Bluerail website.
George
George S posted:RoyBoy posted:Does BlueRail include some form of cruise control?
I believe the engine you are upgrading has to have cruise control if you want it. The Bluerail board does not connect to any type of tach reader. For conventional engines, Bluerail controls the voltage and seems to have some options to smooth or tune the power curve, however this is not the same as true cruise control.
George
It's certainly possible for it to have cruise control, most HO packages use back-EMF cruise, the same as the ERR Cruise Control. I don't see why BlueRail couldn't use back-EMF, no tach reader required.
gunrunnerjohn posted:George S posted:RoyBoy posted:Does BlueRail include some form of cruise control?
I believe the engine you are upgrading has to have cruise control if you want it. The Bluerail board does not connect to any type of tach reader. For conventional engines, Bluerail controls the voltage and seems to have some options to smooth or tune the power curve, however this is not the same as true cruise control.
George
It's certainly possible for it to have cruise control, most HO packages use back-EMF cruise, the same as the ERR Cruise Control. I don't see why BlueRail couldn't use back-EMF, no tach reader required.
I was going more by the documentation on the website. There is a chart of voltage adjustments you can tweak for the motor connection. They don't talk about cruise control at all. It seems to be more of a communication interface board. With DCC, you keep the existing electronics, which would likely include cruise. I think the same can be done to any other engine with cruise by feeding the motor leads from the Bluerail board to the electrical pickups of the engine board. You need to isolate the ground in that application.
It's certainly possible what you say, just not obvious from the website.
George
Bluerail has an article entitled "Turning off Back-EMF in BlueRail and EZ App". If you were to use the board to power the track you turn EMF off. Therefore normal operation likely uses back EMF measurement as tach.
Kirk R posted:Bluerail has an article entitled "Turning off Back-EMF in BlueRail and EZ App". If you were to use the board to power the track you turn EMF off. Therefore normal operation likely uses back EMF measurement as tach.
Good find. Thanks to GRJ for pointing in this direction.
It would be good if they documented these features a little better by having a more detailed and easy to understand features list.
It seems from the article that the board definitely uses back-EMF. The reason to turn it off is if you use the board as a track power controller. Very cool. They even have ways to use the board to control accessories.
George
George S posted:Quietman posted:H1000 posted:Your only option for upgraded Bluetooth control is to scrap the existing electronics and install BlueRail.
Bluerail is for DC and DCC. You have to make your own AC to DC converter to use it.
Well, yes, but it doesn't seem more difficult than what you are suggesting. They even have a tutorial for it on their website.
http://bluerailtrains.com/2017...rail-ac-track-power/
George
Oh joy, and now you get all the polarity headaches associated with DC track wiring.
Quietman posted:George S posted:Quietman posted:H1000 posted:Your only option for upgraded Bluetooth control is to scrap the existing electronics and install BlueRail.
Bluerail is for DC and DCC. You have to make your own AC to DC converter to use it.
Well, yes, but it doesn't seem more difficult than what you are suggesting. They even have a tutorial for it on their website.
http://bluerailtrains.com/2017...rail-ac-track-power/
George
Oh joy, and now you get all the polarity headaches associated with DC track wiring.
Not sure how you figure that. Please explain.
George
Quietman posted:Oh joy, and now you get all the polarity headaches associated with DC track wiring.
Since all you're using track power for is raw power, you can add a bridge rectifier from the track and eliminate any polarity issues. There is no issue with all BT trains with polarity of the track.
I guess my point about BlueRail boards is If you are going to use them for O gauge trains they need to be capable of 6 amps or more and for now they do not have such a high current board. Sure there are some small O gauge locos that can use them and if you are never going to want to run a large articulated loco or anything with 4 motors they may serve you well. Your not going to be able to run any locos with Pullmor motors as well. If you already have a fleet of O gauge locos some with TMCC some with DCS some using e-units are you going to convert your entire fleet because that is what you will need to do. Think about trying to run BlueRail, TMCC/Legacy and DCS on one layout ??? The current BlueRail boards are suited for DC motored S scale and that tempts me, even the old Flyer is easily converted to DC. J
JohnActon posted:I guess my point about BlueRail boards is If you are going to use them for O gauge trains they need to be capable of 6 amps or more and for now they do not have such a high current board. Sure there are some small O gauge locos that can use them and if you are never going to want to run a large articulated loco or anything with 4 motors they may serve you well. Your not going to be able to run any locos with Pullmor motors as well. If you already have a fleet of O gauge locos some with TMCC some with DCS some using e-units are you going to convert your entire fleet because that is what you will need to do. Think about trying to run BlueRail, TMCC/Legacy and DCS on one layout ??? The current BlueRail boards are suited for DC motored S scale and that tempts me, even the old Flyer is easily converted to DC. J
Huh?
Let's not spread misinformation and use edge cases to prove a point. My MTH Allegheny doesn't pull more than 2 amps when it is pulling 12 cars and a lighted caboose! I think it only has one, very large, motor. Never heard of an engine with 4 motors... (BTW, the board is concerned about the amps the engine pulls, not the amps on the track if you are running multiple engines and lighted cars.)
Also, you don't need to convert your whole fleet. Bluerail or Lionchief+ trains will coexist just fine on the same layout as TMCC and DCS.
If you don't like it, just say so, but don't say it won't work.
George
If you are seriously considering the conversion of a OGauge loco to bluetooth, you should first consult the UserGuide and Articles sections of BlueRail's website (www.bluerailtrains.com). I've done eight conversions with no hitches.
Bob, when you converted your OGauge locos they presumably all had can type motors. For the case of 3-rail AC track what precludes the BR board output motor power from modulating track AC delivered to the motor leads of Pullmor/universal type motors... ? For older engines the only other option would be to pull the motor and put in a can motor but I've yet to see a good reference on how that is done.
Kirk R posted:Bob, when you converted your OGauge locos they presumably all had can type motors. For the case of 3-rail AC track what precludes the BR board output motor power from modulating track AC delivered to the motor leads of Pullmor/universal type motors... ? For older engines the only other option would be to pull the motor and put in a can motor but I've yet to see a good reference on how that is done.
I know you addressed this to Bob, but I want to add my two cents. A Pullmor/universal motor will run on DC, so that is not an issue. Check out this thread...
https://ogrforum.com/...pullmore-motor-on-dc
I don't think those motors will exceed the Amp rating of the BR board either. In the thread, Dale M brings up the issue of reversing direction on a universal motor that runs on DC. He recommends a solution. To the point made earlier, this is no longer an out of the box installation and requires some additional electronics be added. I am not making any kind of recommendation here, just pointing out some options.
One other issue that may come up with older engines is whether the Bluetooth antenna can get a signal through the shell of an older diecast or metal engine. There are work arounds for that too, but just another wrinkle. GRJ has posted on other threads about adding modern electronics to older engines and some of the frustrations involved.
George
Hi George, I found that posting after I responded to Bob. It clears up some but let's further clarify by example. I have a great looking S-2 steam turbine 6-8-6 #671 from 1948. Engine runs strong but the tender whistle is anemic. Could pull out whistle and use tender to house electronics with leads to the engine. Tender is plastic so it won't impede RF signals. Simple enough to isolate engine from center rail pickup.
Tender track power can be converted into 15 volts (or up to 24 V DC per spec) using full bridge and power regulator and routed to the power inputs of the BR board. Motor outputs from the board go to the AC motor armature and, through a second full bridge rectifier, to the field part of the AC motor. This bypasses the electromechanical E-unit entirely and allows for reverse but voltage is dropped 1.4 V due to 2 diodes. Not sure how speed control would be implemented as AC probably has different EMF characteristics than a DC can motor (BR uses back EMF for speed control presumably). But you'd have bell, whistles, lights (if isolated from chassis and routed to tender), future sound upgrades, robust electrical power by using a backup battery (dirty track), direction, could add electrocouplers, etc. Not sure how any sound linked to speed, such as synchronized chugging and consisting, would work though.
This sounds like a pretty good deal to get more usability out of some less used locos that run on conventional AC track (the track could be set up as AC or DCC). What am I missing?
1) On BRT's website they say clearly "Do not use the board with O gauge Universal motors." I would like to know why? Are motor outputs of the current board sensitive to feedback from those motors?
2) They also say to isolate the motor and lights from the chassis or DCC-ready locos (my S2 turbine is DECIDEDLY NOT DCC-ready). Some AC motors' housing (field stator?) are not isolated from the chassis I believe so that may pose a challenge. But why, electrically, is this a requirement?
Satisfactory answers to these two questions would be great.
Kirk
Hi Kirk,
You are definitely asking the right questions. I either missed or forgot about the "don't use with Universal motors" disclaimer. If it is a feedback issue, wouldn't a choke work? That question is probably for GRJ. Maybe you could use their contact form and ask these questions? If you get a good answer, I would love to learn more.
For speed control, I assumed the board has voltage tuning to simulate track power control. The board can be used as a track power controller, so I don't understand why it won't work with a Universal motor.
George
I might revert to the form unless we get other posts from knowledgeable sources. Otherwise it's conjecture. I'll give it a few days to see.
If I were to guess (conjecture!) I think they already have this fixed and it's in a new version of a higher power board specifically for O gauge enthusiasts with an output stage jumper configurable to either can motor or Pullmor/universal non-can type with full instructions on such a conversion.
I'll likely open this up in a new topic as we've strayed, but Lionel could do this too if they wanted to but that's not a fit with their current business model of high detail and high price... quality, well, depends upon the slow boat from China.
Kirk
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