art is completed for LCCA first S gauge set

Good Day Lou,

 

Thanks for the update. I'm anxious to view the set.

 

Regards,

Frank

the art is great looking and so are the two new cars. i should have pricing soon. If I don't start hearing about more support for this product I will have no choice but to KILL the project. lets hear it if your interested ok

I will buy one.

Everyone reading this should buy one.

I'm in for one too, as long as the graphics are at least semi-plausible (like no "Life Savers" etc. box car).

Need to see the renderings before I get excited.

 

Steve

I like to see before I buy. Always a good idea.

Lou, I joined the LCCA when this project was first announced however I agree with Steve Eastman, it's hard to get excited when we've yet to see what's included in the set.  Also, I think you really need to promote this set on the Yahoo S Trains forum.  No offense to this forum or the members on it, but the Yahoo forum has over 1700 members and is all about American Flyer.  There is also the Yahoo S Scale forum but I doubt there would be little interest as they limit discussion to strictly scale items.  Jim

Lou wrote:  the art is great looking and so are the two new cars. i should have pricing soon. If I don't start hearing about more support for this product I will have no choice but to KILL the project. lets hear it if your interested

 

Let's see if I understand this correctly:  There is no price.  There is no picture.  There is no delivery date.  The description is rather general at best.  No info regarding scale wheels.  You are threatening to KILL the project unless you get more orders.  Those are the facts as I see them.   Given those facts, I think a bit more work needs to be done before orders are solicited.  KILL threats will not bring in more orders.  Ed Loizeaux

Hi Lou,

Have not seen this thread before an am curious as to what kind of locomotive will be used? 

On another thread it was stated the locomotive will be an AF Baldwin switcher in Union Pacific "Flag" scheme. There will be a new watermelon car, a box car, a flatcar with automobile load, and a caboose.

Baldwin loco? I will pass.

 

Gunny

 

 

 

Oh...   Me too

The Baldwin would not scare me away. It has a new drive, I heard it was a lot better so I would like to see what that's about. I can't say I like the U.P. flag scheme on an engine that never wore it, But would overlook that if it brought us more exclusive runs from LCCA. Lou said bigger and better sets may be in the future, and hopefully less fantasy, more prototype. I belonged to LCCA back in the '80s, and their O gauge convention cars were great. Can they do this in S? That would be fantastic! A Baldwin? Yes, baby steps to test the waters.

I think Lou that there is an important lesson to be learnt here about the differences between the 'O' gauge fraternity and the more selective 'S' gauge crowd.

 

My perception is that the 'O' gauge people are quite happy to buy items that are non prototypical and fanciful with artwork that is basically aimed at collectors of novelty. I feel that these marketing techniques are not as widely acceptable for the 'S' arena.

 

For myself I would rather see items made that reflected the prototype as near as possible which means you can run trains that look as they should do or did.

 

As someone mentioned previously, if it is the Baldwin as the choice of power in UP livery and the UP didn't have any, then it isn't for me.

 

Going off at tangent here you can see how the Lionel influence of selling an 'O' passenger set is being forced upon the 'S' gauge community by only having three cars instead of four. Gilbert in the main always marketed most of the streamliner passenger sets with four cars.

 

 

Regards,

 

Neil

Lou,

 

I am in for a set.

 

Ed Boyle

The UP had Baldwin switchers. They just didn't have any with the present paint scheme with a big American Flag on the side. That is for SD70s and the like

So what is the problem with not producing it as it ran prototypically?

Lou,

 

I would join the club just to buy the set.  Count me in so long as your description and pricing remain accurate.

 

--Rocco--

If Lionel knows what they are going to produce, then they should tell us now. Why wait? They won't be taking orders until they receive pricing. That I understand. But they could post pictures now.

baldwin switcher with sound and new wire handrails added

if the S gauge set works out then we will consider scale proto type products but not before we test the market.

thanks

louie

it all has to do with contracts Jim

thanks

louie

now i know it will be a hit!

thanks ED

LOUIE

>> if the S gauge set works out then we will consider scale proto type products but not before we test the market.

thanks

louie

 

Hi Louie....

 

I do not understand how making a fantasy mythical toy train set that never existed in the real world can be confused with "testing the market".  This makes no sense at all. 

 

The new AF catalog is full of non-realistic toy trains and is totally absent one single prototypically correct separately available freight car with an accurate paint scheme.   It is amazing how many walking Zombie cars, Hershey cars, Cub Scout cars, Mr. Goodbar candy bar cars, etc., etc. are being foisted upon the S gauge fellows.  The semi-almost-described LCCA train set, without prices or pictures, might be testing something (not sure what), but it sure isn't testing the overall S gauge/scale/AF market. 

 

You want a test?  Offer one truly accurate authentic freight car with a correct paint scheme and one mythical fantasy car and see how well they each sell.  Make each car equally colorful since we know colorful stuff sells better.  Offer scale wheels for both cars.  At least then, you would have some valid basis for comparison between mythical and authentic. 

 

The A.C.Gilbert Co., father of American Flyer, was known for accurate major dimensions on cars and locos without all the size distortions common to Lionel O gauge products.  Realism, in all respects, is more appreciated and desired by the S gauge crowd than by other crowds.  It appears you have ignored these preferences for authenticity.  Not a great way to put your toe into S waters.

 

I can see the next message already:  "The S gauge guys did not support our fantasy mythical toy train set and so we will not offer anything more in S."

 

I hope that is not the way it turns out, but I am not optimistic at this point.

 

Ed Loizeaux

If this is any help Lou, we participate in a regional show here in Asheville NC for the past several years. There is a large S gauge club nearby in SC who have a nice two-line layout that they display. When I first saw them about 4 years ago, they were running a lot of Gilbert Flyer - mostly diesels with a few modern engines of various manufacturer. This last March they had a lot of activity constantly and were mostly running the new scale steamers and some beautiful Southern E8s with gleaming stainless cars. Also several scale diesels of different eras but all had prototypical paint. They looked more like a first class HO scale setup with very few Gilbert items like the Comet, Silver Streak, Silver Flash, and the like. The trend is definitely towards full scale realism with the S crowd....

Me thinks you're getting some very insightful input here.

I will order the set.

Good Day Lou, 

 

As you know, collaboration is a great research and marketing tool. How about a conference call with several of the S Scale model railroaders to discuss the LCCA S Scale project? What do you time? I would like to help make this project a colossal success! Perhaps Rusty, Ed and Sam could join the call.

 

I will be happy to set up the conference call with my call bridge.

Rusty, Ed and Sam what do you think?

 

Best Regards,

Frank

 

Sounds like a good suggestion Frank but I am not 'current' with S at all. Had Flyer as a boy but am mostly interested in 3 rail O and some large scale.  Hopefully others whose pulse is on the S gauge arena will join you.

Thanks for the invite...

OK guys hear me out. i appreciare the feedback but you are missing the big picture here. We are trying to help Lionel re create a traditional S gauge market. Before these people can step up to the next level we need to rekindle that spark for flyer. The LCCA along with lionel are trying to bring American flyer back to many of those who remember it from their childhood. Until LIONEL and LCCA can re-establish the entry level flyer products WE the LCCA WILL NOT RISK using our members money for Flyer S scale. i have sat with lionel and there are items that have been discussed in S scale that you can't even imagine but without a basic base market how do we expect these people to get to the next level so lionel can justify their investment. Right now the flyer market isn't all taht big to justify constantly making new tooling. $700 to $900 locos with $80 plus freight cars scare the heck out of some folks.  it scares them right out of the hobby!

LCCA is NOT ignoring the collector or rivet counters.  FOR NOW We are targeting a completly different group of people.

many thanks

louie

Lou, What you've said here makes absolutely no sense.  How does making 300 limited edition sets recreate a traditional S gauge market?  These sets will be bought by Flyer collectors not new people.  American Flyer has been made by Lionel for over 30 years.  We begged Lionel for starter sets but they were content to gouge Flyer people with high prices and low production numbers.  Sure, they created some new tooling, but  still low production, sometimes not even producing enough product for their dealer preorders.  The D&RGW 3 car passenger set is a prime example of this.  I'm sorry Lou, It's you that is missing the big picture.  We've been here all along and have seen the reluctance of Lionel to expand.  Now, after 30 plus years they want to bring it back to those of us who remember it from childhood?  They're targeting the 50 year old plus crowd?  Really?  Who do they think is buying the stuff now?   Jim

Lou,

 

I think you have misunderstood what we have all been saying. We are not talking about detail down to the last nut and bolt as we know this tooling doesn't exist, at the moment. S Helper/MTH is probably as close as you are going to get to scale items being mass produced and Lionel isn't there yet.

 

As someone mentioned earlier, we want something that represents the prototype from the art perspective, so if the Baldwin you have art work for is a mix and match of the past and recent eras then it is fictional and this is point we are trying to get over. Can the Baldwin represent an actual engine that UP operated?

 

The same goes for the rolling stock, we want these to also be representative of the actual prototype, not fictional. 

 

Gilbert represented realism most of the time, OK he did have a bad period with the the Rockets and Comets but we forgive him for straying off the beaten track back then.  Just have a look at the old catalogues and you will see what we mean. This to me as a Flyer enthusiast is what the past is all about and would be representative of that 'tradition' as you call it. 

 

Just out of interest, have you consulted, surveyed, polled any 'S' gaugers for their input to this project?  If not then I think that a lot of what we have been saying would have come out sooner and this would have helped you on the final artwork.

 

It seems like all the discussions has been done between yourself and Lionel which has focused on mirroring the 'O' gauge business model and not the 'S' gauge one.

 

Hope this makes it a bit clearer.

 

Regards,

 

Neil

I agree that bringing back "traditional" Flyer is a great idea because I love the looks and durability of the original American Flyer trains. I wasn't around when the original Flyer was, but from everything I've read, watched, etc. about American Flyer trains it seems like a big selling point for them was their realism compared to 3-rail O Gauge. I'm not talking about "rivet counter" style accuracy, but just a reasonably accurate representation of the prototype.

To use your proposed LCCA set as an example, if the locomotive is painted in a prototypical scheme I'm in 100% for a set (barring a financial emergency). If it has a scheme that's not prototypical for the locomotive (i.e. the American Flag graphic on the side) I'd be less inclined to buy one, but based on how far "off" it was I still might purchase. If it has a graphic of the Tooth fairy on the side, I would NOT buy one.

Cheers,
Ken

Remember in order to bring back a market the product has too look like eye candy too. the paint is autentic but the loco wasn't a style locomotive the union pacific used in real life. WOULD you say an american flyer lines northern was correct? by no means but people bough them. how about Lionel lines? people purchased products with that marking on it too. i suppose it's just a matter of taste. Lionel has just reviewd the art of this possible new starter set and could not believe how good looking it was. it was hard for them to believe it was the same style loco as their M&STL diesel.

have a great day

louie

 

Lou,

 

You say to revitalise the AF market, the product has to look like 'eye candy', where did  your research get this data from? There has been an overwhelming number of posts here that says the opposite, isn't this a clear message as to what people really want?

 

To comment on the UP Northern with AFL on the tender, we have to remember that the market of the day was aimed at kids and the use of AFL was a brand image that those kids associated the product with.  Fast forward 60 years and those kids of the past are no longer the same people. They are now adults and they don't need to have that brand displayed on the item, it can be found on the box and any advertising associated with it and that's where it should stay. I don't see S Helper/MTH or AM slapping brand logo's all over the place.

 

As you say, it is a matter of taste and that taste is clearly saying that there are lost opportunities here.

 

If Lionel themselves are over the moon about the artwork then that just really endorses what they think us 'S' gaugers are looking for, especially when about 80% of the freight cars in the current catalogue are novelty products.

 

Regards,

 

Neil

 

Bob,

 

I am so glad you wrote about the other half of the S gauge community that is still strongly attached to AF and AF style trains that are not strictly scale or prototypical.

 

Lou's idea is to appeal to that group with his first LCCA offering and broadening the market to O gaugers who will very likely find the set desirable. 

 

It is real shame that Lou cannot bolster his case by showing us what the the set actually looks like.  My understanding is that the diesel and the cars make up into quite an attractive package. 

 

Once he can show us that, I am confident that a lot more people will be interested in the UP S gauge set. Lou seems to have a knack for putting together desirable packages for train sets,  and that is what I am basing my confidence that the set will be a winner.

 

Ed Boyle

Well said, Ed.

 

While I have my own concerns about what the set will look like, I'm waiting to see the artwork before I commit one way or the other.

 

I'll admit I have a triple standard.  "Traditional" based Flyer is broader than what I would accept for S Scale HiRail, which is broader than what I would accept for S Scale.

 

It's not like Gilbert didn't take liberties.  NP never had PA's, nor did the Santa Fe have them painted blue and yellow, yet both were pretty popular with the buying public then and now.

 

So, the best thing we can do is cool out jets until the artwork is released.

 

Rusty

Don't have a lot of S gauge, but what I have is original Gilbert-Flyer. If the offering is in that vein, I am at least intrigued. If it goes to the scale end, It would not be a fit for me, but it would be great for many others. I'm waiting for a peek and a price.

 

Steve

 

Let's see this art Lou! Ben

Lou,

 

Any update?  I intend to join just to get this set which I am sure your hopping to see happen to bring in more "S" people.

 

--Rocco--