art is completed for LCCA first S gauge set

Hi Rocco,

I talked with Al Kolis about this subject last night. The project has slowed down due to Lou being out of action lately. The project is by no means dead, the LCCA will be working on getting costs and artwork after things settle down from the convention. Also, if you'd like to hear Ed Boyle from OGR give some of his thoughts on Lionel S gauge, head over to Notch6.com and listen to his interview from last night. Some interesting insights on the future of S gauge.

Sorry Lou, but this is where I just have to scratch my head... This is the problem with S IMHO. You are EITHER a Flyer person or a Scale person. I think the only way that S has a future is if you attract NEW modelers from other scales. Those folks don't want traditional Flyer. Sorry, but if they did they would be here already. So the idea that making a 300 count collector Flyer set will help gauge the market just makes no sense to me. Don't get me wrong, I wish you well. If you really wanted to test the market perhaps offering a scale set and a flyer set at the same time would have been a good idea. Why not just call this what it is, a limited edition collector set for the Flyer crowd. Nothing wrong with that. I just don't see this helping Lionel "gauge" anything honestly.

Good Luck.

Any set offered to a "membership required" organization is not going to generally expand a market.  It is a closed loop, after all.

But as LCCA is primarily an O Gauge organization, the set may encourage some O Gaugers to cross over.  No guarantees, however.

I'm interested in seeing what the LCCA set will look like.  I pretty much stopped buying "classic Flyer" years ago in favor of my scale work and Hirail, but if it looks decent enough, I'll order one.  Might want to run it around the tree, who knows...

I feel pretty much the same way about the NKP Berkshire set.  It'll all depend on how the Berk turns out.

Rusty

I must agree with Jonnyspeed that the proposed LCCA AF set has a flawed concept.  As Ed Boyle from OGR states in his podcast on Notch6.com, Lionel has been making AF trains for a longer stretch of time than A.C.Gilbert did.   There is no need to "rekindle the spark" at all.  And Lionel needs help to "gauge the market"???????  Gimmee a break !! 

As Ed says, there are many dedicated Lionel O gauge collectors who will move into collecting Lionel/AF S gauge products as well.  Seems like a logical extension of a fascinating hobby to me.  And I hope they do it big time.  The market is there, but the products have yet to fully come to fruition.  Things like a complete track line, realistic (not toylike) cars, etc., etc.  will be needed to see S reach its full potential.

The enthusiastic Gilbert-era AF fans will eventually die off and who will be left?  Only the folks interested in realistic authentic model railroad equipment.  Modern diesels are fine, but the transition-era is far more popular among established S scale modelers.  Realistic models can be colorful.  There are LOTS and LOTS of very colorful authentic prototype models to choose from.  If Lionel needs help, I would suggest we collectively help them with ideas of colorful cars that actually existed.  Zombie cars don't excite anyone I personally know.  Then again, I do not know everyone. 

If Zombie cars sell well, then build them by all means.  But there is no logical reason to totally exclude realistic authentic individual freight cars from the S product line.  Makes no sense at all.

Just some thoughts.......Ed Loizeaux

I thought I would jump in hereas well.  I think offering a starter set as proposed is still a good idea.  It will bring in both Flyer and some new folks into the world of "S".  Now if you really wanted to grow "S" to a whole new audiance I would do the following:

1) Complete the Fastrack system.  Yes actually get the track out not keep moving back release dates.  The fact that we do not even have switches yet is unacceptable.  Also they need to release an accessory track for operating cars.

2) Next once the track system is out I would release a Thomas the Tank Engine in as much detail (if not more) than Bachmann's and include smoke, sound and movable eyes.  This would be a step up from the HO versions and may bring in lots of parents who feel HO is too small for kids.

3) Take a look at the best selling cars and sets in "O" and make those.  If a Southern Pacific Daylight set was a big seller in "O" it will be a big seller in "S" if done right.

4) Bring back the fun.  How about some new "S" gauge accessories. or repurpose some "O" gauge ones that could work in "S" like the Culvert loader.

5) Slow down on the Cylindrical Hoppers and how about some other scale modern items such as those Autocarriers that look beautiful in "O"

Anyway that is my 5 point plan to grow "S"

--Rocco--

>>  the LCCA is (mostly) into providing appealing special issue traditionally inspired trains made by using (usually) existing tooling.

Mere repaints are not very exciting.  Many many S gauge clubs all over the country have been periodically offering repaints for many years now.  Not to mention S-oriented conventions as well.  NASG has been offering AF repaints for over 20 years including a full train set (less track) offered car-by-car year-by-year with the loco coming in last. 

Repaints are nothing new.  Repaints have been in full swing for at least two decades. 

Ya wanna excite the S folks ????   Give 'em something new (besides the paint) that has never been done before (by anyone) which actually ran in the 1940-1955 time frame (no more toys).  Offer it with AF wheels and scale wheels per the NMRA standards.  Make it colorful if you wish since we all agree color sells well.  There is a vast assortment of potential new products that meet the above criteria.  Offer several new paint schemes if possible.

Then LCCA can honestly say the S folks were given a chance to buy new S model railroad equipment instead of just another toy-like repaint.  A group the size of LCCA ought to be able to arrange for something like that without too much difficulty.  With enough advance reservations and deposits, the tooling expense can be justified. 

If sufficient advance reservations cannot be obtained, we can then honestly say the market was at least tested.  Assuming, of course, the advertising and marketing of said set was done exhaustively.

By the way, has the LCCA AF set been mentioned anywhere else besides this forum?  If not, why not?  Why is there a limit of 300?  With NASG repaints, the 300 represents the minimum order quantity -- not the maximum.

Cheers....Ed L.

Well, Ed.  I'm pretty sure my evil twin would get royaly reamed if I brought up the LCCA Flyer set on the Yahoo S-Scale board, and it's totally inappropriate for the S Scale Sig.

The Modern Flyer Yahoo group died a quiet death a few weeks ago and I'm not on S-Trains.  I'd be willing to inform the NASG webmaster once there's something more concrete (like artwork and price) to report.

I've been following this announcement from the start.  It's LCCA's first foray into S, so I think doing a classic Flyer style set is appropriate.  I'm concerned about the description and have my own ideas about what I'd like to see, but I'm reserving my judgement until at least the artwork becomes available.  As I walk both sides of the track, I may or may not purchase a set.

It's possible I suppose we'd see something that could appeal to the scale crowd once Lionel expands the offerings, but right now the pickings are pretty slim from the old Circle L Ranch.  Heck the covered hopper hasn't even come out yet and the availability of scale conversion wheels for the SD70's and ES44's is still vapor.

It's true the LCCA has financed some tooling for the O Gauge boys, but's that's pretty much a known, captive market.  The S market is still unknown for them and I wouldn't expect them to sink money into significant new tooling for Flyer right now, be it classic or scale.

Rusty

This string is both old enough (May 7) and long enough (2 pages) that folks are repeating themselves. It's deja vu all over again. 

When the set's artwork, contents, and pricing are announced, I'm sure the news can/shall be posted on the Yahoo S-trains board and be placed in the Dispatch among other places. 

Ed L.: "The enthusiastic Gilbert-era AF fans will eventually die off and who will be left?  Only the folks interested in realistic authentic model railroad equipment." 

Permit me to suggest that predicting the future can be awfully dicey. One suspects that the days of intense collecting of postwar trains are over, but folks new to the experience continue to discover the charms and joys of vintage Gilbert Flyer. As an example, most now involved with Standard gauge (both vintage and repro) were not alive during the heyday of tinplate. After a decent interval, one might anticipate that there could be a strong renewed interest in US-made trains from our industrial past. One can easily find topic strings on this forum in which someone has become a proud first time owner of, say, a classic Gilbert Hudson.

If past is prologue, vintage will coexist with the new.

Bob 

Deja vu on groundhog day repeating itself all over again one more time is not a unique occurance on any of the OGR forums.

I think it's fair game to poke at project that's been running silent for a while, I'm sure there are some folks waiting to pull the trigger and join LCCA once there's something tangible to show.

As far as the future is concerned, "The Future of the Hobby" type thread pops up on the 3-rail side occasionally and they always wind up being "much sound and fury signifying nothing." 

As far as the future goes, all I know for sure is the future usually looks better on TV...

The internet has conditioned us for answers as soon as we take out finger off the enter key and I'll admit even my patience grows short at times.  So, we will always see revival of threads, supposition and predictions until things settle down again.

Rusty

The one thing about this set offer that I have found strange was the 300 set limit.  Why put on a limit this early?  I would take pre-orders find out how many interested people were there and how many sets they would buy un-seen just based on your description then use that to project the number of sets you would sell once pitures and details are available.  Now of course there could be a reason to limit it to 300 such as Lionel wants you to sell it at such a low price that they are not making money but instead they are doing this to test market sell through points and by limiting the set size to 300 they control their loss.  Outside of that issue I can not see why one would cap the offering size before demand is known.

--Rocco--

>> The one thing about this set offer that I have found strange was the 300 set limit.  Why put on a limit this early? 

If the goal is to have the scarcity factor drive up the value quickly, then limiting the quantity made is one way to achieve that goal.  If the goal is to expose lots and lots of people to S gauge trains and to test the market, then limiting production quantities makes no sense at all.  Perhaps the desire for future financial gain outweighs the interest in showing S to a large audience?  Just conjecture for sure.  Ed L.

Why not offer a freight car and locomotive distinctly from the 1960's that American Flyer did not produce.  Something that lasted 30 or 40 years on the real railroads before being retired and scrapped.

Andrew

quote:

It appears to be fairly standard LCCA practice to place a run number limit. The psychology of potential scarcity helps to sell the items and drive membership. Not unusual. If one does not like the practice, then don't play.

Dare I say that from an LCCA perspective it is more about how much profit they can make from this, irrespective of what the true 'S' gauger would really like to see made?

Because ultimately I seem to remember and I could be wrong here and I'm sure that I will be corrected, that it needs to generate additional funds to keep the LCCA afloat as the normal subscriptions don't cover the outgoings?

Good Day Lou,

When time permits can you please provide an update on this project?

Best regards,

Frank 

What a terrible thing...RIP Lou.

Indeed.  Sad news.  His enthusiasm and passion for things Lionel would show through in each of his posts.

Very sad.  He will be missed.