ASC2 and Atlas Switches

Sinclair,

Seeing this has been here a couple days without a reply maybe try posting under an  Atlas thread.

Ray

I don't see why you'd need the extra Atlas board, many people run these with just a SPDT center-off switch.  That's how all of them at our club are run as well.  If the ASC2 is programmed properly, you shouldn't have any issues.  To protect against a possibility of a programming error, you could put a PTC in series with each ASC2 switch output to trip if the output remains on for more than a second or so.

I was working with older TMCC technology, IC controls ASC's and Atlas switches.  Problem was with the Cab1 and holding the Through or Out button a bit too long.   The ASC would cycle the second time when programmed intermittent, which was enough to fry the switch motor.  The Atlas boards primary function was to time-out, and eliminated the burn-out problem.  The 6924 boards, allow auto-non-derail, even though the Atlas switches are spring loaded auto-non-derail. Logical Power routing of dead spots in switches was the other important gain.  I found that one 6924 worked well for switched  pair crossovers.  Dwarf lights could be added without much difficulty.  I would hope the ASC2's are a bit more user friendly than some of the original offerings. 

sinclair posted:

I'm finally going to pick work back up on my layout and have some questions.........................................................

Also, I want to use the Atlas Dwarf signals on some turnouts, will they still work with the ASC2 throwing the points and no Atlas Non-Derail Board in use?

...........................................................................

The Atlas dwarf signals can be used wired directly to the Atlas switch motors.  There is a small PC board with the dwarf lights that allows this connection.  The ASC2 would not effect the operation of the dwarf lights hooked to the switch motors.

The 6924 boards have not been available for some time.   It would be nice to know if Atlas intends to continue manufacturing these boards.

Thanks for the replies.

Mike CT posted:

The 6924 boards have not been available for some time.   It would be nice to know if Atlas intents to continue manufacturing these boards.

That may affect things.  If I can't get more boards, then I won't have to worry about adding them.  I have one or two already and was thinking of using them just on the outside loop crossovers where the risk of trains falling if derailing is the highest.  Inside the layout wouldn't be an issue.

I use the older IC Controls version the Lionel version for TMCC and just picked up the Legacy version.  Just follow the directions that comes with the Atlas switches and you should be good to go.  I used a Common Neutral for my whole layout so I just use two conductor wire going to the switch from the ASC and run a short wire to the Neutral loop.  I think I leave the suggested wiring from Atlas at this point and I am not sure How I exactly wire the switch to make it work with a dedicated switch Transformer.  I better look before I wire in the new Legacy ASC's.  I just put in a new expansion to my layout and added 5 new switches to my existing 23.  If you want me to look into my wiring and want a wiring diagram I will. I usually don't touch the layout during the summer months.

Any and all info would be helpful.  I'm really not all that good with wiring and electricity.  Thanks.

I will look this afternoon and do a diagram. Do you use a common nuetral for your layout?  Can you use a dedicated transformer for powering switches or a channel from a multichannel transformer?  What kind/Model# transformer do you have?  If you have multiple transformers and want to use a common nuetral, do you understand about phasing the transformers?  I know these are a number of questions but I don't want to lead you down the Rosie path and then I find out something different with your setup that prevents my diagram from working for you. 

I will look this afternoon and do a diagram. Do you use a common nuetral for your layout?  Can you use a dedicated transformer for powering switches or a channel from a multichannel transformer?  What kind/Model# transformer do you have?  If you have multiple transformers and want to use a common nuetral, do you understand about phasing the transformers?  I know these are a number of questions but I don't want to lead you down the Rosie path and then I find out something different with your setup that prevents my diagram from working for you. 

OK, I knew there was something in the back of my mind regarding the wiring of the ASC.  The original IC Controls ASC diagram shows the "HOT" ("POWER" as labeled in the Manual) going to the terminal on the ASC  labeled "COMM" of the ASC.   Neutral of the supply transformer labeled going to the center terminal of the switch.

You must first understand that the ASC is two electrical switches for each Train switch so you can throw the train switch either Out or Through.  For NEC (National Electrical Code i.e. House Wiring)purposes one always switches the Hot (Supply) lead. For this reason hence the IC Controls manual shows the Hot side being switched which is technically correct per the NEC.  The problem results from the Transformer Hot side is connected to a terminal labeled "COMM" on the ASC, somewhat of a misnomer.

Looking at the Lionel Manual for what was essentially the same device, the diagram was changed.  Now the "HOT" of the supply transformer is shown connected to the center terminal of the Train Switch.  It is now Wired(?) labeled correctly, but now showing the "COMM" lead is switched.  Technically incorrect for the NEC preferred wiring standard.  In essence Lionel should have left the diagram alone and changed the stenciling from "COMM" to "HOT".  But what is cheaper to change?  Of course the manual is easier to change with a couple of key strokes.

As I mentioned in a prior post I have just purchased what is known as the Legacy ASC or ASC2 for my layout.  I had not looked at the Electrical Connection Diagram until just now.  Can you believe it?  This diagram is changed again.  It shows the Transformer supply side (Hot) going to the Terminal label "COMM" on the ASC2.  Utterly amazing in my opinion.

Now with this as background, using the ASC2 Manual just know that the Terminal on the ASC2 should be Labeled "HOT" and all will be good as you are switching the HOT side of the Power.  This will allow you to use the common Neutral Loop for you layout very efficiently. I used 18/2 thermostat wire (Home Depot SKU 278297 Note: I suggest you get the 500 foot roll as you will most likely use it down the road for layout expansion and the 100 foot roll is a third of the price.) to run from the ASC2 to the switch outer terminals for your THROUGH and OUT.  The Neutral of the transformer can go to the nearest access of your Neutral loop and the Center Terminal of the Train Switch can be wired to the nearest access to you Neutral Loop.  This cuts down some of your cost by not having to run a third wire (Neutral) back to your Control Station/Board.  As you add more switches/accessories the savings will increase not having to run a Neutral for each switch/accessory back to your control panel.

This description should get you started and maybe/should generate additional questions from you.

I have not wired my layout as I am just getting around to the track wiring part of phase 1 ( aka 1st loop of 3.).  My transformer is a Lionel ZW-C with 4 180W PowerHouses.  Each of the 3 phases (aka loops) of my layout will get their own handle, with the 4th handle for accessories, turnout motors, signals, and lighting.  I don't know what you mean by common neutral wiring. And your discussion of COMM and HOT is going over my head.  I know the + of the transformer (A/B/C/D or power) goes to the center rail, and the - (U or return) goes to the outside rail.

I have been trying to respond to your post on the forum but each time I start I stop to acknowledge that there are whole books dedicated to the topic of electricity as it relates to O Gauge model Railroading. And I was not doing Justice to the topic in any of my posts.

I have three suggestions.

1. Get a good book dealing with the subject. I suggest the Greenberg series of books. Having said that, Command/Control has out dated these books so read them to get a basic understanding of electricity as it relates to model trains

2. I suggest you join a club. The right club will educate you as you read.

3. I am always interested in talking to individuals regarding facits of our hobby.  I would love to talk to you. My email is in my profile.  I believe that it is visible to you. If you would like to talk, send me an email with your telephone number and I will call you at a time determined by you with the knowledge I am in the Eastern Time zone. I await your email. 

sinclair posted:

I have not wired my layout as I am just getting around to the track wiring part of phase 1 ( aka 1st loop of 3.).  My transformer is a Lionel ZW-C with 4 180W PowerHouses.  Each of the 3 phases (aka loops) of my layout will get their own handle, with the 4th handle for accessories, turnout motors, signals, and lighting.  I don't know what you mean by common neutral wiring. Those black post on your transformer should be hooked together, You can check that with an ohm meter,  transformer power disconnected.  And your discussion of COMM Black terminals/outside rails, and eventually the accessory commons if you are using isolated rail section activation.  and HOT Red terminals, center rail and accessory power. is going over my head.  I know the + of the transformer (A/B/C/D or power) goes to the center rail, and the -(U or return) Common goes to the outside rail. 

  A very short tutorial.  A start.   Best wishes with your wiring.    Mike CT.

Thanks for the replies, as they have been helpful.

@Jim, thanks for the offer.  Once I've gotten the LCS items I need, I'll drop you a line.

Wow, great subject, I started my Layout back in 1997-1998, when Lou Kovach (possibly misspelled) was introducing his TPC's and ASC's BPC's and ARC's, and more. Also, getting back into the hobby, this new way of controlling my entire layout was exciting, challenging, and addictive....TMCC was fairly new, and because I was starting over, I decided to go entirely Lionel TMCC, Totally. Also new was Atlas O 21st Century track and components...I love Atlas O Track...Solid, well made and the assorted precurves were fantastic. (Now all Legacy)

I read and read the ASC Instructions, even called Atlas O in hillside New Jersey and they were so helpful....My power source is an older ZW controller D handle not fully Powered. I wired them for both cab control, and a push button beside the turnouts. Being that these were among the first batch of turnouts made, there were some issues with power going through the rails properly...I fixed that by rewiring the bottom of the switch.  Now, I only have apriximately 12 of those turnouts working fine, however, I did switch to Ross Custom Switches as the Atlas O switches caused troubles. I have approximately 50 switches operating the layout and the Ross switches have been wired for non derailing.  All work off the one side of the old ZW 275 watt transformer, 20 years later....The Atlas O switches do not need to be wired for non derailing as the swivel point rail are not heavily sprung.  I like that feature.  On my Ross switches, using the DZ1000 switch motors, the ASC works great....Atlas O had revised there switches and today they work just fine.

I feel sure there would be folks or train buddies in your area that can help you. I did not know there were ASC's built for Legacy. I do not have a control panel because everything is operated by Cab 2 Command.  The only small control panel I use is for the turntable area and the roundhouse and whisker tracks...

I have one of Atlas O's trackside Signals and I cannot get it to work correctly, but, oneday soon, I will reread those directions and get it working correctly. 

Best of all, the folks at Atlas O can help you, and once you get one working, the next is easier, and easier. I use the BPC's for all my blocks send main lines...I wish you good luck in your wiring adventure, it's a fun Hobby. Please keep us updated on your progress...Thank You

Wiring Your Toy Train Layout by Peter Riddle is, IMO, a pretty good, basic, general wiring book for O gauge. For me, I liked his writing style and it was an easy read, easy to understand as well. It's been 6-7 years since I read it, but seems like it covered quite a few things and most all of the basic stuff although not a lot of command control. Once you have the basics down the rest will make more sense though, including command control. Anyway, this might be something of interest to you for more electrical knowledge?  

Leapinlarry, glad you mentioned the BPC's. I got scared that I forgot to order one for my expansion. My check allayed my fears as I did order one and it's waiting to be installed this fall when I return to my basement. 

Referring back to nj_sinclair's post regarding using a separate channel kind of concerned me as even as "good as the ZW-C is the voltages could be off and that would cause sparking going from one loop to another loop. I use two Z's for power. But since I basically only use Command I set all my blocks to run from the same Z and TPC combination. I thought that I would like to run conventional also simultaneously and I installed the BPC's for only that reason. Haven't run any conventional Locomotives in years, maybe decades.