Atlas Erie-Built AB set has short when starting to move

Ron,

    Did you try the engines on a different section of track? If you have any unused track set up a small test track to see if the same thing happens. It maybe a track issue not a engine issue. Good luck

JohnB

John,

Just tried that.  I put the engines on one of the outside loops and it worked well.  Added both, and both worked well.  Went between the outer loop and inner loop with no issues.

Tried running them into the yard, where the track in the video is and as soon as I hit the yard block, they acted up again.  Tried a different track in the yard, same thing.  They do not like the yard block where I have ran nearly all my engines.  Right now on yard tracks are a Lionel J1a and Centipedes, and a MTH Y3 and a H10-20 (the J1 is currently on the track in the video).

Will troubleshoot some more tomorrow.

Take all the other engines off the yard track and try. With all the engines you may be overtaxing the power supply.

Ron,

   What kind of track are you using? Are the main line track and yard tracks the same? How about power supplies. Do you use a different transformer for the yard?

JohnB

If you have run other engines over this section of track without issue, then the engines are at fault and not the track. While it is unlikely to have 2 engines have the same failure symptoms at the same time, it is quite possible. Since you are operating on straight track, that eliminates binding and shorting wires on curves. You can pop the shells and inspect the wiring, but I'll bet you don't find anything wrong.

Can you start up the sounds without having the engines move?  Try Eng, enter the engine ID, then Aux1. That should wake the engine, but not have it move. Now try moving both forward and backwards. I suspect it will short out in both directions. My suspicion is a TMCC board has gone bad, and likely the same one in both engines. I'll take a stab in the dark and venture the L2RC boards.

Chris

LVHR

Ron: Recently in another thread I offered some electrical trouble-shooting advice: Always remove any loads from an electrical circuit when testing.  There may be some interaction going on between the ones idly sitting on the track and the ones you are having trouble with. A test track, or as you seem to have determined, a different track, will give different results. It's all trial and error until it's trial and success.

Rod, the other engines on the yard tracks are on isolated tracks.  So the only engines being powered are the Eries.  The yard tracks are power by 180 PowerMaster with the PSX set at 7.5 amps.  The loops are powered by a 360 PM with the PSX set at 15 amps.  Could the Atlas Eries be pulling over 7.5 amps by themselves?

John, see above for power supplies.  The yard tracks are Gargraves with Ross switches, with Atlas uncoupling tracks.  The  loops are all makes.

Picture of the tracks it occurs on? You say they run flawlessly on other sections so it must be something with the track.

Is it only TMCC controlled engines that are having trouble here?  (Not sure if other engines you mentioned are Legacy or TMCC.)  If so, it might be ground plane issue; try holding your hand over the engine(s) (one at a time) and see if that improves performance.

Chuck

First off, I rechecked my PSX setup and it is set for 4.8 amps, not 7.5 (setting is actually 8).  I apologize for that.

I wasn't going to do anything until tomorrow, but decided to go down and run all engines on yard tracks using the yard PM/PH180 setup.  I only had three, a Lionel Legacy Centipede AA (both units powered), a Lionel TMCC J1a, and a MTH PS3 Y3.  Had them all moving (slowly) at the same time, with the J1a on the same track as in the video. No issues.

I am leaning towards both Atlas units are pulling more than 4.8 amps each.  Not sure why that would occur at step 1 on the Legacy controller.

They run well on the loops, so is it possible that they just pull that much power?

I am leaning towards both Atlas units are pulling more than 4.8 amps each.....They run well on the loops, so is it possible that they just pull that much power?

Under normal conditions, no. If you have a shorted TMCC component board, you can easily pull 6 amps on that unit!

Chris

LVHR

@lehighline posted:

I am leaning towards both Atlas units are pulling more than 4.8 amps each.....They run well on the loops, so is it possible that they just pull that much power?

Under normal conditions, no. If you have a shorted TMCC component board, you can easily pull 6 amps on that unit!

Chris

LVHR

Would they both suddenly short? He says they both ran fine a few months back.

@BobbyD posted:

Would they both suddenly short? He says they both ran fine a few months back.

Clarification.  They both ran fine on the outer loop with that breaker set at 15amps.  This is the first time running them on the yard tracks at 4.8 amps.  If they were both pulling 6amps that would not have tripped the outer loop breaker.

I have a powered A, unpowered B Hiawatha set.   With the A unit pulling the B unit, my Z4000 shows it is drawing 1.4-2.0 Amps at 18V in command mode.  It might be helpful to check the current draw of each unit separately.

Bob

Ron, you certainly have a unique situation here. I think we are all stumped. One thing for sure, you will figure this one out. It may be a simple fix or just one of those fixes with no known solution. I look forward to continued suggestions.

I'm rereading this thread (again!) To clarify,  the problem exists only in the yard, and not on the remainder of the layout. And it only exists with these engines. If that's  the case, I retract my comments about the TMCC board. Can you run these engines over the entire outer loop without issue? Do you have any straight sections in that loop? If you do and the engines work well there, time to consider something else.

If I'm following correctly, you have 2 PSX CBs, correct? One is set to 7.5 amps and one to 15 amps, correct?  Out of curiosity, why the different settings? If you reset the PSX on the outer loop to 7.5amps, does the problem now occur there?

Do you have access to either an AMP meter or a Z4K  or ZW with a meter package? I interested in what each engine is really drawing. Anything over 2 amps seems high to me.

Another thought: If these engines have smoke units, turn them off and try again.

Chris

LVHR

Chris,

One correction above you missed.  The PSX is set at 4.8 amps, not 7.5 as I thought.  Where the PSXs are located will make it hard to change the amp setting, but it may come to that.  I actually want to change the yard block to the higher amp setting.

Also, why different PSX settings?  Higher demand on the loop tracks with multi-unit diesel consists/double-headed steam, plus lots of non-LED passenger cars.

I just did some amp checks with my cheap clamp meter from Harbor Freight.  The smoke switch on both the A and B units are off.

First off, I ran the two engines together on the outer loop with 19 freight cars in tow.  In TMCC mode and on speed step 20, total current draw was 1.8 amps.  Running just the A unit by itself at step 20 was 0.75 amps, and at idle without sound it was .11 amps and with sound it was 0.18 amps.  Everything looks good on that loop.

On the yard track with no other engines powered on the block, I tested the A unit by itself.  Here is what I get:

Idle (no sound):  0.11 amps (same as on loop)

Idle (max sound):  0.18 amps (same as on loop)

Step 1 (sound) before CB trips: 0.8 to 1.5 amps. (higher but still not high enough to trip breaker)

I checked two other engines on the yard block at idle and with sound:

Lionel TMCC J1a:  0.4 amps

MTH PS3 Y3: 0.35 amps

It does not look like high amps is the issue.  Any other suggestions?

Ron

Will a PSX trip for any other reason other than exceeding its amperage setting?  I looked at a review of the device that suggested that later models added features to avoid tripping during startup of motors and initial charging of capacitors.  

A next step might be to either increase the amp setting on the one device or swap your PSXs to see if the problem follows the one device.  (I saw your comment about the devices not being easy to get to).

Bob

Ron,

It's looking like your engines are okay. I can't argue with those amp readings. Of course, that presumes the HF meter is accurate. No reason not to accept it until proven otherwise.

Try getting the J1a and the Y3 moving. Can you get an amp reading from each one separately in motion? Try the same thing with the A and B separately. If the numbers make sense, then either the yard PSX is set too low, or something is wrong with it. I've never heard of one going bad, but there's always a first time for everything.

I know changing CB settings is not something that is done everyday, and burying them makes some sense. But I think you may need access to them until this gets resolved. BTW, the PSX-AC manual I see online shows a low setting of 4.8, which is where you are at. The next option up is 8.0 amps. That would be the next setting to try. IIRCC, MTH Z4Ks are set to trip at 10 amps. Not certain what the Lionel bricks or new ZW s are set for. I'd go with the lowest setting that allows the layout to operate, but not over the rating of the CB on your power supply.

Chris

LVHR

@CAPPilot posted:

Clarification.  They both ran fine on the outer loop with that breaker set at 15amps.  This is the first time running them on the yard tracks at 4.8 amps.  If they were both pulling 6amps that would not have tripped the outer loop breaker.

I'm still leaning towards the engines not being the issue as your amp numbers seem to be in line with other models. Is it possible to relocate the breakers to a much more accessible spot in the event it is bad?

Do I understand correctly that you are using some kind of extra breaker with a Powermaster? Why? Powermasters already have the best overload/overcurrent protection and adding auxiliary ‘protection’ would probably just cause nuisance tripping.

I have a fully powered ABA set of these engines that don’t give me any grief at all with my Legacy Powermasters.

@CAPPilot posted:

John,

Just tried that.  I put the engines on one of the outside loops and it worked well.  Added both, and both worked well.  Went between the outer loop and inner loop with no issues.

Tried running them into the yard, where the track in the video is and as soon as I hit the yard block, they acted up again.  Tried a different track in the yard, same thing.  They do not like the yard block where I have ran nearly all my engines.  Right now on yard tracks are a Lionel J1a and Centipedes, and a MTH Y3 and a H10-20 (the J1 is currently on the track in the video).

Will troubleshoot some more tomorrow.

Is there any chance that they are straddling one or two track gaps between two differently powered sections that the other engines don't because of their wheel arrangements?

Dave

Thanks for everyone's inputs.  Will check out your comments when I can, but I am busy today on another project.

The things that have me confused:

-The Atlas engines do not seem to pull any more amps than my other engines.  The engines run very well on a loop track.

-I have run at least 10 other engines, DCS and Legacy/TMCC, on the yard tracks without issues.

-When I run the Atlas engines from one of the loop tracks onto the yard lead, the Atlas engines run smoothly across the block break until all rollers are on the yard block.  Then the PSX trips.  As long as one roller is on a loop track, no problems.

-I have run four powered engines on the yard block without issue, but one Atlas engine trips the PSX.

-The yard block's PSX is set at 4.8 amps and the loop's are set at 15 amps, all powered by PH180s.  All other engines have no issue going between the loop track and the yard tracks.

I will set the yard's PSX to 8 amps and see what happens, but not sure this is the issue.  I can also take the yard PSX out of the circuit and see what happens.

My project for tomorrow.

Have a great rest of the day.

OK, could not wait.  I set the yard PSX to 8 amps.

-Put the A unit on, ran back and forth with no problems.

-Put the B unit on, ran back and forth with no problems.

-Put both on and turned to step 1, drumroll please, and.......the PSX tripped.  Consistently.

These Atlas units have the older TMCC with a TAS EOB cruise.  Maybe gutting them and putting in ERR's stuff will fix it.

Ron have you tried to put both units on the " bad " track BUT not touching.  That would tell you if the short is coming thru the couplers,

That is how I ran them.  I was in a hurry so I did not couple them together.

Are the flanged wheels making good contact with the common?

I have a Atlas O SD40 converted to ERR, had traction tires on inside and middle wheels which caused the locomotive to have poor contact with common because of the truck design.

Short term solution: move the outer solid flanged wheel set inboard towards fuel tank, which puts more weight on the solid wheels and provides better electrical contact

Also, get rid of traction tires on flangless wheels

Cogen 1981,  I will look at this.  At this point, I will try anything.

@CAPPilot posted:

Thanks for everyone's inputs.  Will check out your comments when I can, but I am busy today on another project.

The things that have me confused:

-The Atlas engines do not seem to pull any more amps than my other engines.  The engines run very well on a loop track.

-I have run at least 10 other engines, DCS and Legacy/TMCC, on the yard tracks without issues.

-When I run the Atlas engines from one of the loop tracks onto the yard lead, the Atlas engines run smoothly across the block break until all rollers are on the yard block.  Then the PSX trips.  As long as one roller is on a loop track, no problems.

-I have run four powered engines on the yard block without issue, but one Atlas engine trips the PSX.

-The yard block's PSX is set at 4.8 amps and the loop's are set at 15 amps, all powered by PH180s.  All other engines have no issue going between the loop track and the yard tracks.

I will set the yard's PSX to 8 amps and see what happens, but not sure this is the issue.  I can also take the yard PSX out of the circuit and see what happens.

My project for tomorrow.

Have a great rest of the day.

How many amps do the engines pull alone?

How many with both?

If it is still way under the breaker setting I would swap the breaker out. And as Norm says, run them through the PowerMaster with out the breaker. Have run many TAS controlled Atlas F's and Erie Builts without any issues.

@BobbyD posted:

How many amps do the engines pull alone?

How many with both?

See post above.  I can repost when I get home.

Ron,

Two more ideas: Since you have the outer loops set at 15 amps and the engines run fine on that setting, try setting the yard PSX to 15 amps. If it still trips, swap the PSXs and see if the problem follows with the PSX or stays in the yard.

After that, I'm out of ammo.

Chris

LVHR

It is easier to get at the loop PSX, so first I think I will remove a jumper to bring it down to 8 amps and see what happens.

Any updates?

Rod, Unfortunately life happened and I have not gotten back to it.  I will this weekend.

Good luck Ron. As I said before, this is a tough one.

No luck!  I reset the loop track from 15 amps to 8, and each of the Erie engines worked separately but not together.  Reset to 4.8 amps and neither worked.  Exactly the same symptoms as on the yard track.

So, I drug out my Atlas RS-1 (6875-1).  It is an older TMCC engine that did not come with cruise, so I had an TAS EOB board installed.

Put is on the track and it does the exact same thing as the Erie engines when run separately.  Immediately trips the PSX when it is set to 4.8 amps, runs on the 8 amp setting (although it did trip once) but only one at a time (the RS-1 and the Erie A unit together tripped the PSX).  The meter readings of the RS-1 were close to the Eries.  0.23 amps at idle with sound, and actually up to nearly 3.0 amps when starting to move.  Meter reading was pretty smooth, but it is cheap so may not react to a instantaneous jump that would trip the PSX.  Just guessing.

The track is clean but only did a superficial cleaning of the wheels.  Plus the grease probably needs changing.  Would these could these symptoms?  The Eries were bought in 2007, and the RS-1 in 2002.

I can take the PSX out of the circuit, but not easily.  I will look at that later.  The engines should run individually since CB protection will be through the PH180 which is 10 amps.  I will need to run two together to see what happens.

These are great looking engines and I really want to figure out what is causing this.  But not today.  They are going on the shelf for now while I work on the layout.

Have you attempted to contact Mike Reagan? He may have some information on why you are seeing the issue with the TAS boards. We had some guest Atlas Erie's here for awhile and they ran without any issues.

BobbyD, All three of these engines run without issues on my loop with the PSX set at 15amps.  Probably will run without the PSX with a PH180 or Z4000 that have 10amp CBs.  Just does  not like the PSX set at 4.8amps (or 8amps with two on the track).

My 3rd Rail Gas Electric, Lionel T1 and E6, and K-Line A5 and B6 with TAS components run without problems.  @Mikado is a genius so he may know.

Ron, I’ve been following this thread for a bit. I can’t offer a solution. You did mention the engines were stored. I have an older Lionel !0 Wheeler that I added a drop in EOB board to years ago. Haven’t run it in years. I have 4 Legacy 10 Wheelers with 3 re done into Rutland’s. They can all be run in doubleheads. I dug out my old TMCC one with EOB just to see how it ran. I figured I could add a 5th to the roster and just use it on locals.

Well I fired it up and it ran super slow. I may have put not the best working tach tape for this engine and I remember it always had that slow ramp up. I just don’t remember it being this bad. It ran like it was stuck in the mud. I do have the PSX breakers and they are set at 10 amps. I do have an amp meter on my power supply. Nothing tripped so I never gave it a look. Now I’m curious as to what it may have been drawing. I will get it back on the layout and see what it draws. I just put it away. To many present projects going as my thoughts were to go to an ERR cruise board and re do the smoke box front and headlight to be more correct.