Atlas F7's Arrived Today

Engineer-Joe posted:

Any people with RR experience think that building 4000 units, maybe there could be different sized fuel tanks?

Any of them get replaced over the years?

I'm just taking a wild stab in the dark here.

Considering that all railroads had many crews of craftsmen that could fabricate just about anything from metal during the transition era from steam to diesel, I believe it is safe to believe that many railroads customized the fuel tanks as they felt would benefit the needs of their equipment, and the railroad.

The height of the fuel tank argument is absurd since you can't tell anyways unless you're at track height but the length of fuel tank is pretty bad and looks very wrong

I don't think any of the current manufacturers can produce a totally scaled, highly detailed unit and keep the pricing within reason. The China contractors most likely don't even know what an F3 or F7 is. Who in their right mind would want to stay in this business. 

Rod Miller

You will even find that early grills were horizontal on some passenger F7s, but were quickly swapped to vertical grills. Most of the freight Fs kept their horizontal grills. Santa Fe changed so much stuff, and many shops did their own thing so to speak.... its quite possible to find a version of something you don't normally see or wasn't the norm if you look around enough.

BobbyD posted

Both these tanks look really close to the Atlas model size. It seems unlikely Atlas shrunk the tank skirt, has anyone measured that part?

http://www.trainweb.org/oldtim...s/cnr_diesel/one.htm

So has anyone actually measured the fuel tank and skirt length yet? Really doubt Atlas changed the F3 body tool when making the F7. This post has drifted farther than pieces of MH370! Are most purchasers after the as built locomotives? Or the heavily modified (butchered some say) ones that are years old? Compare the GTW unit image above to Lionel's version below to talk about issues.  Guests see the color error and never get around to questioning any details!

Every class delivered had something unique about it, and some numbers within the same class had different details. The possibilities are endless. The front porthole trim ring was usually silver, but not on all of them. You really have to pick a set and model that set from a specific date. Move on to later dates when skirts were removed and all the maintenance grabs were added.....its even more confusing with so many detail variations you'd need a flow chart to keep track of.

The information being provided here on these Santa Fe units is just outstanding!! Great data to know, and it is certainly appreciated! The photos above of 347C and 347B are just fantastic- what a beautiful set of units-

Norm stopped by today to pick up his F7s .

I got a phone call this morning, my Amtrak powered A and B are in and I can pick them up tomorrow at the local train show. Definitely a reason to get up early.

I thought you'd like to see what we can do with the F3s and F7s that are out there. 

Here are the Lionel F3s and an F7 (high water) that have been lowered to the scale height of 3.510" (14' 0 1/2"). 

At this height, the fuel tank is just about spot on... if anything, the sump is a little low. The sump sits 0.1927" (9 1/4") above the railhead, and I've trimmed some wood so it's exactly that...

next up... I'll need to dig out the Atlas F2 that has the fuel tank spacer in it. Of course, we didn't need to lower that diesel, Atlas got it right from the factory. 

Thanks,

Mario

Ok, results are in for the Atlas F2...

WITH the 0.100" fuel tank spacer, the sump is dead nuts on target. 

Of course... the height is also on spec. 

It'd interesting to see the measurements on the new run. 

Thanks,

Mario

PS- The only thing I'm dreading so far about pre-ordering the Legacy NYC E8s, is lowering them. (I can overlook the dynamic brake fan, but in still hoping they make it a removable hatch and put a blank there). 

From your photos Mario, it looks like the new Atlas F7s sit much higher out of the box than the older F2/3s. Seen that before....Lionel F3s and F7s. 

Laidoffsick posted:

From your photos Mario, it looks like the new Atlas F7s sit much higher out of the box than the older F2/3s. Seen that before....Lionel F3s and F7s. 

Let's compare, LOS!

Here's my dummy A set up with the fixed pilot and scale coupler. I bought a powered and dummy set of As and a dummy B unit. I'm a little miffed that Atlas didn't put the lifting rings on the As but a quick run to P&D will fix that. The dummies have pickup rollers so I am thinking about putting ERRCo sound in them. Not sure I'll mess with the fuel tank assembly, it looks OK to me. I will set the other units up tomorrow and take some more photos. 

Saw these tonight. Fuel tank height seems close, do the 3Rail ones ride higher to clear the flanges?  

Looking at the fuel tank, if they made it longer it would be outside the skirt edges. If the skirt is correct length then the tank is ok.

They do look great & ran nice on DCC.

Laidoffsick posted:

From your photos Mario, it looks like the new Atlas F7s sit much higher out of the box than the older F2/3s. Seen that before....Lionel F3s and F7s. 

I concur. 

Somewhere around ~0.080" is my guess. 

And, no ones seen Lionel Fs like yours and mine before!

CentralFan1976 posted:

Laidoffsick posted:

From your photos Mario, it looks like the new Atlas F7s sit much higher out of the box than the older F2/3s. Seen that before....Lionel F3s and F7s. 

I concur. 

Somewhere around ~0.080" is my guess. 

And, no ones seen Lionel Fs like yours and mine before!

 

Hey guys, I am not buying it just yet. Number 1, CentralFan1976 please show a comparison picture where the background is the same for both models. What I mean is in your earlier post the NYC F2 has a black background behind it and the Milwaukee Road has a white background behind it. Because you can see light through the Milwaukee Road it looks worse in my opinion. Number 2, I find it hard to believe that Atlas, a company known for not changing their tooling, (it took them how many years of complaining by 2 railers to change their scale coupler--about 10?) changed the tooling on either the frame or the trucks for this run of F7s. But hey I could be wrong.

Hudson J1e posted:

CentralFan1976 posted:

Laidoffsick posted:

From your photos Mario, it looks like the new Atlas F7s sit much higher out of the box than the older F2/3s. Seen that before....Lionel F3s and F7s. 

I concur. 

Somewhere around ~0.080" is my guess. 

And, no ones seen Lionel Fs like yours and mine before!

 

Hey guys, I am not buying it just yet. Number 1, CentralFan1976 please show a comparison picture where the background is the same for both models. What I mean is in your earlier post the NYC F2 has a black background behind it and the Milwaukee Road has a white background behind it. Because you can see light through the Milwaukee Road it looks worse in my opinion. Number 2, I find it hard to believe that Atlas, a company known for not changing their tooling, (it took them how many years of complaining by 2 railers to change their scale coupler--about 10?) changed the tooling on either the frame or the trucks for this run of F7s. But hey I could be wrong.

Ok HJ1E, I tried to do my best to get you a true and honest height of the side sill. 

This was taken exactly at floor height, and you can just see the flat frame over the truck leaf spring.

And it comes in at exactly 1.0485". 

1.0485" x 48 = 50.328"

50.328" / 12 = 4' 2 1/3"

Side sill height is 4' 2".

Survey says: the side sill on my Atlas F2 is a real .328" tall, or a human hair thickness in 1/48.

Unfortunately, this is the only Atlas F unit I own, and will probably ever own  since the NYC Fs are getting scarce and the prices in the new ones are out of my league. So, I can't compare to a new F7. Sorry. 

(Notice how you can see the top of the pilot, which says it's taken at a slight downward angle.)

I hope this helps.

Thanks!

Mario

I received my Milwaukee Road ABA set (powered A with dummy BA) last Monday but didn't have a chance to open the boxes until last night. First thing I noticed was something flopping around inside. I was going to swap out the pilot anyways so I popped off the shell and the antenna fell out. It was hot glued in there and apparently didn't want to stay there. Super glue took care of that. After switching out the pilot/coupler I put it on my test stand (layouts under construction) fired it up and it runs great. Only issue I seem to have is the smoke fan motor. It sounds like one of those old electric razors when it runs. I'll look at that when I get the time. I'm not sending it back for a noisy smoke fan motor. After adding some fluid it produces plenty of smoke.

After counting all the rivets I seem to be missing three or four of them, but that's Ok with me. 

All in all I think they look great. Thank you Atlas and Mr. Muffin.

Considering all the comments on the new Atlas F7s I am surprised no Atlas rep has commented, I assume they are waiting for things to settle down before they make any statements, just saying!

hibar posted:

Considering all the comments on the new Atlas F7s I am surprised no Atlas rep has commented, I assume they are waiting for things to settle down before they make any statements, just saying!

Just what would you expect them to say?

Hot Water posted:

hibar posted:

Considering all the comments on the new Atlas F7s I am surprised no Atlas rep has commented, I assume they are waiting for things to settle down before they make any statements, just saying!

Just what would you expect them to say?

I would assume if they respond to this topic it would be a positive one . JMO

I'm gonna be the first to say that going forward the positive post on this topic are going to greatly exceed the negative post.

The EL units that I mentioned in OP were opened and run today by my train buddy and they are STUNNING.  Paint flawless, sound much improved and (what wound up to be the main focus of this thread) the fuel tank is very well done.

The size and clearance look just fine.  Maybe it is, as reported earlier, a tenth of an nice too high.  If you choose to add a spacer that is your choice but IMHO it looks GREAT.

Looking forward to my five unit SANTA FE's arriving in the next couple of weeks.

SantaFeJim posted:

I'm gonna be the first to say that going forward the positive post on this topic are going to greatly exceed the negative post.

The EL units that I mentioned in OP were opened and run today by my train buddy and they are STUNNING.  Paint flawless, sound much improved and (what wound up to be the main focus of this thread) the fuel tank is very well done.

The size and clearance look just fine.  Maybe it is, as reported earlier, a tenth of an nice too high.  If you choose to add a spacer that is your choice but IMHO it looks GREAT.

Looking forward to my five unit SANTA FE's arriving in the next couple of weeks.

 SantaFeJim,

You know something we don't, "arriving in the next couple of weeks"? Hope you're right!

jvega2 posted:

SantaFeJim posted:

I'm gonna be the first to say that going forward the positive post on this topic are going to greatly exceed the negative post.

The EL units that I mentioned in OP were opened and run today by my train buddy and they are STUNNING.  Paint flawless, sound much improved and (what wound up to be the main focus of this thread) the fuel tank is very well done.

The size and clearance look just fine.  Maybe it is, as reported earlier, a tenth of an nice too high.  If you choose to add a spacer that is your choice but IMHO it looks GREAT.

Looking forward to my five unit SANTA FE's arriving in the next couple of weeks.

 SantaFeJim,

You know something we don't, "arriving in the next couple of weeks"? Hope you're right!

 

NOPE, just optimistic.  

There are so many elements of what is a good model vs bad including scale accuracy, paint, details, road specific details and for me, the most important, HOW DOES IT RUN?

Correction; correct color is most important

645 posted:

SantaFeJim posted:

 

Also note the #18 in above image has what appears to be a stainless steel trim ring around the lower headlight. All other 1:1 Santa Fe F-units (including the fake ones) pictured in this thread has it painted yellow.

I can clear this up.  Santa Fe took delivery of its passenger F3 and F7 units with only the standard single headlight.  There was a delay of several months with the first group (16 through 21) but subsequent orders went straight to the Company shop for application of ATS and the Mars or Pyle gyrating headlight ASAP after delivery.  San Bernardino fashioned headlight barrels for the nose doors, and applied chrome or stainless steel bezels to the F3's.  Unlike EMD, who used a smaller barrel in the nose door, Santa Fe used the same size as the upper headlight.  That's why they are different than on other railroads.  Beginning with the F7's, Santa Fe used painted bezels.  They were pretty particular about maintaining chrome bezels on the F3's, right up into the late 1950's, but, after that, the door and bezel repairs sometimes resulted in painted bezels on F3's and, less often, a chrome bezel on an F7.  These old warhorses were sent to the "body shop" numerous times.  In the 1970's they finally ran out of spare doors and bought a few from EMD with the smaller headlight barrel.

And, the 18L, pictured, is an F3 from the first group, hence the chrome bezel.

Tom,
Can you educate me on why the Warbonnet paint scheme extends farther back on one class than the other?

Big Jim posted:

Tom,
Can you educate me on why the Warbonnet paint scheme extends farther back on one class than the other?

 

Wide angle painter

The first 16 Class F3 locomotives (16LABC-21LABC) as delivered in 1946 originally had a third porthole.  This is the so-called "Phase 1" (not an EMD designation) carbody and the warbonnet extended past the porthole:

Later units of the 16 class F3's were delivered in 1948 (beginning with the 22LABC) with the Phase 1a carbody, which lacked the third porthole and the Warbonnet was shortened to just past the first louver.  Also, stainless steel side panels were used:

As locomotives go through the shops during their service lives, they receive various changes and upgrades.  Somewhere along the line the 16 class F3's were upgraded with new side panels, grills, along with MARS lights, which moved the headlight to the door.  The Warbonnet for the original 16 class F3's simply followed the original paint diagram for the phase 1 carbody after shopping.

Rusty

Hot Water posted:

Also, thanks for explaining just were that "fake" Santa Fe "F Unit" really came from. Some of these museums really make me laugh about some of the stunts they pull in the name of "historic accuracy".

 

Ummm....

I guess this would be classified as a "fake" also:

Perhaps the granddaddy of all fakes because of the time, money and effort being put into it.

Or perhaps there is a fine line between fake and recreation maybe?

Rusty

Rusty,

That is a real Santa Fe Alco PA, restored by the owner and painted for HIS "home railroad", so yes it is indeed a "fake". Plus, since he has been making it operational to boot, pretty much NONE of the interior components are from an original PA.

The term "recreation" might indeed be better.

Hot Water posted:

Rusty,

That is a real Santa Fe Alco PA, restored by the owner and painted for HIS "home railroad", so yes it is indeed a "fake". Plus, since he has been making it operational to boot, pretty much NONE of the interior components are from an original PA.

The term "recreation" might indeed be better.

In the real car hobby a 'restored' race car that was made from different components we call a 'tribute' car. Race cars were disposable and after wrecked a few times were often cut up and scrapped. But using one original part, major part, makes it 'restored'!!  

AMCDAVE -- were there tax advantages involved in using at least one original part, so that the car could be described as "restored" according to certain IRS definitions?

For the Nickel Plate (ex-Santa Fe) ALCo, I like the term "recreation," or perhaps "reproduction." 

B Smith posted:

AMCDAVE -- were there tax advantages involved in using at least one original part, so that the car could be described as "restored" according to certain IRS definitions?

For the Nickel Plate (ex-Santa Fe) ALCo, I like the term "recreation," or perhaps "reproduction." 

The 'using one original component' is more so the owner can say it's 'real' than anything. I know here in WV the tax on cars over 25 years old is scrap value....and that's fine with me!! 

Got my Milwaukee's and man they are awesome! Flawless paint - exceptional packaging. They fit right in with my "multi-era" world. 

Oman posted:

There are so many elements of what is a good model vs bad including scale accuracy, paint, details, road specific details and for me, the most important, HOW DOES IT RUN?

Correction; correct color is most important

They run very well.  No problems.  I suggest that you follow Atlas instructions, packaged with the locomotive, that explain where to lube and you will be very pleased.  The close coupling is awesome.  Can't wait to see these units with the fixed pilot(s) installed.

I took some videos and will attempt to figure out how to post them here later in the week.  Until then you'll just have to rake my word for it.  Or, perhaps somebody else will post a video or two.

On a scale of 1-100 I rate the A-unit a 96 and th B-units a 97.

Hot Water posted:

Rusty,

That is a real Santa Fe Alco PA, restored by the owner and painted for HIS "home railroad", so yes it is indeed a "fake". Plus, since he has been making it operational to boot, pretty much NONE of the interior components are from an original PA.

The term "recreation" might indeed be better.

 But if the owner wanted to indeed make the interior look and function like the original PA are parts even available? 

Hudson J1e posted:

Hot Water posted:

Rusty,

That is a real Santa Fe Alco PA, restored by the owner and painted for HIS "home railroad", so yes it is indeed a "fake". Plus, since he has been making it operational to boot, pretty much NONE of the interior components are from an original PA.

The term "recreation" might indeed be better.

 But if the owner wanted to indeed make the interior look and function like the original PA are parts even available? 

Well, sort of. There was one, and only one, Alco model 244 prime mover "available" for sale, quite some years ago. However, the 244 prime movers were problematic, thus a more modern generation Alco 251 prime mover was used.

Boy, talk about thread/subject drift!!!!!!

Hot Water posted:

Hudson J1e posted:

Hot Water posted:

Rusty,

That is a real Santa Fe Alco PA, restored by the owner and painted for HIS "home railroad", so yes it is indeed a "fake". Plus, since he has been making it operational to boot, pretty much NONE of the interior components are from an original PA.

The term "recreation" might indeed be better.

 But if the owner wanted to indeed make the interior look and function like the original PA are parts even available? 

Well, sort of. There was one, and only one, Alco model 244 prime mover "available" for sale, quite some years ago. However, the 244 prime movers were problematic, thus a more modern generation Alco 251 prime mover was used.

 

Boy, talk about thread/subject drift!!!!!!

How about drifting a few more feet... were the ex-Santa Fe units, like this, re-engined by MK with 251s?