B & LE 2-10-4 in McKees Rocks, PA

It looks cold there! 

Mark in (much warmer) Oregon

Sunset/3rd Rail produced excellent models of both the B&LE and DM&IR 2-10-4 locomotives. I can not imagine Lionel getting their model details correct.

Lionel is just repainting a PRR J1a, gross. 

No, Lionel is repainting the C&O T-1, which the Pennsy J1a is based on...

Rusty

George, Those are neat photographs!  I did not know the B&LE 643 is in McKees Rocks.  

Mark, It was a LOT colder earlier in the week!  George decided to wait until the heat wave!  

Rusty Traque posted:

No, Lionel is repainting the C&O T-1, which the Pennsy J1a is based on...

Rusty

No, Norm is correct.  The C&O T-1 has separate steam and sand domes, whereas the PRR J1/J1a has one large enclosure for both of these domes.  The Lionel casting is for a PRR J1/J1a.  Sunset/3rd Rail got the C&O T-1 boiler correct.  Headlight location is not the defining detail.

As far as I am concerned it is good enough if it has the right number of wheels and the Bessemer logo!!  

that used to storm past my house as a kid ,,in curtisville pa,looks better than I though it would,so sad its there

I wonder if it could be run again....  How Much $$$$

Not a suggestion,  just a nice day dream.

The French Creek Valley RHS has recently acquired the old Meadville Bessimer Station.  BIG BIG PROJECT... MUCH MORE TO FOLLOW !!!!!

So in this thread we found out a repainted Lionel PRR J1a looks nothing like a C&O T1 nor like a Bessemer Texas. 

Norm Charbonneau posted:

So in this thread we found out a repainted Lionel PRR J1a looks nothing like a C&O T1 nor like a Bessemer Texas. 

And there you have the current Lionel philosophy.

Lionel seems not to care whether or not they release an accurate version of an expensive BTO engine.   I just got a notification from TrainWorld that Lionel is taking orders for a series of Legacy NYC Hudsons with PT Tenders that have the water scooping overflow effect.  One of the cab numbers they are offering is 5452 which was originally a Dreyfuss Super Hudson.  However, their version does not show the Timken roller bearing rods and looks to have the wrong feed water heater.  For $1,500.00 one would hope they would get it right.  Not sure but I believe these are BTO engines as well.    Also, in my opinion,their water scoop steam effect is as unrealistic as can be.  I may be in the minority on this but each to their own. 

Gimmicks

Hot Water posted:

Sunset/3rd Rail produced excellent models of both the B&LE and DM&IR 2-10-4 locomotives. I can not imagine Lionel getting their model details correct.

I would guess that you already knew that the Bessemer sold 18 of their 2-10-4's to the DM&IR in 1951.  The DM&IR had them on the roster until 1961.  Also, B&LE 643 was in operating condition when the road stored her for future operation or display.  She slept in the Greenville roundhouse for years until she was sold to a Mr. Campbell in 1983.  He supposedly restored and test fired the engine in the late 1980's but she never did any fan trip service.  Not sure what her fate is. 

The 643 sits on an isolated piece of track that is not connected to the nearby rail network. CSX removed the switch several years ago because the track had no customers and was a no longer used for anything, other than storing this parked and essentially abandoned locomotive.

During the era when Glenn Campbell managed it (no, not THAT Glenn Campbell) he was never able to complete the restoration or secure a place to run it. The estate which owned it took it back and tried to sell it. They had a terribly inflated idea of what it was worth and consequently it never sold. Before he died, Jerry Jacobson, creator of the Age of Steam Roundhouse, made several offers to purchase it, but all were refused.

When those negotiations fell through and it became clear that no one was going to be able to do anything with this huge machine, patience ran out at CSX and they removed the switch to the siding.

The locomotive is huge and heavy. It would be all but impossible to truck it out of McKees Rocks. The streets there are narrow and there are several small bridges to go over to get it out of there.

Without a major “intervention” by a wealthy philanthropist, it is highly likely that this locomotive will never move from this site.

FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:

 

The locomotive is huge and heavy. It would be all but impossible to truck it out of McKees Rocks. The streets there are narrow and there are several small bridges to go over to get it out of there.

Without a major “intervention” by a wealthy philanthropist, it is highly likely that this locomotive will never move from this site.

Exactly right.  The streets are impossible.  The best way to get 643 anywhere would be by rail.

George

If you really want to cry, here's some nice shots of it sitting in Greenville in 1961:

https://eriksenphoto.smugmug.c...-Lake-Erie-Railroad/

Rich Melvin

And chances are good it will be scrapped on site... if not condemned then scrapped on site.

Norm Charbonneau posted:

If you really want to cry, here's some nice shots of it sitting in Greenville in 1961:

https://eriksenphoto.smugmug.c...-Lake-Erie-Railroad/

Wow! It is definitely a crying shame looking at these photos. Thanks for posting.

What ever happened to the #154?

Yes. , Pa. state can brag about the Bessemer engine in the Rocks, 1361 in Altoona and the EBT in Orbisonia. What a distinguished record.

Sam, Thank you for the history; although it was almost to sad to read!

Jim, sad but you do have a point!

Thank you for the photographs, Sam

So I used a Lionel C&O Texas a few years ago and made a 643. This is what the Lionel one will look like . Not Correct.

When I run it at shows most people don't  know it's  not correct. 

Wish I had one of those rare 3rd Rails, those are nice. 

Some nice 2-10-4 footage here at around 1:07:

..and at around 8:33:

Hi Norm. I'm a friend of Daves and common visitor to the Mercer Junction store. Thanks for posting these videos, I had been looking for the first video but had not been able to find it for some time. I thought that it was long gone. I guess not.

One of the reasons why Glenn may not have been able to find a place to run this locomotive is because it is not well suited for excursion service. Unlike the 2-10-4's of the C&O and the PRR, which were designed to be high-speed freight engines, the B&LE 2-10-4s were drag freight engines with a basic design stemming from the 1920s.

The B&LE Texas types had relatively small 64" diameter drivers. I would be willing to bet that the 643 has never been run faster than 35 mph in her entire operating career. A 10-drivered engine with only 64" diameter drivers has some serious counterbalance issues at high speeds. To achieve high speeds, the C&O and PRR engines had 69" drivers, but even they had some rough-riding characteristics at 50 mph. The B&LE didn't need high speeds from these locomotives, they needed lots of tractive effort at low speeds. They got just that with these engines, which were rated at 96,700 pounds of TE.

Unfortunately I don't see much of a future for this locomotive. It is too big, too heavy, and too ponderous to be a good candidate for excursion service. Class 1 railroads won't run it because it can't run fast enough to keep up with other traffic. Short lines, regional railroads and tourist lines don't want it on their lines because it's too big, too heavy and would be too hard on the track. The opportunity to get it to the Age of Steam Roundhouse went by the wayside when Jerry Jacobson passed away and the switch was removed.

As I said in an earlier post, without a LOT of money from someone who is willing and able to pay CSX to cut the main line track and move it over or temporarily put the switch back in so they can get it out of where it is by rail, this locomotive is destined to be one BIG orphan.

I had read that before that it wasn't the right design for excursions and would use too much coal. It would be nice if it was displayed and a better more suitable location.

Maybe some millenial hipster types could build a big brewery around it while they gentrify and hipsterize the rest of the Rocks. They might be our only hope. 

Sam, that showed up as a suggested video the other day. I don't believe I had ever seen footage of it running. I like those hoppers. That train could like nice on my layout I think.

FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:

...Short lines, regional railroads and tourist lines don't want it on their lines because it's too big, too heavy and would be too hard on the track. 

Maybe it could run on lines like the Cuyahoga Valley, where the speed limit is nice and slow. According to their FAQ page, the PRR T1 Trust apparently will be able to run their engine at Steamtown, the Steam Railroading Institute, and the Cuyahoga Valley Line, and that will be a VERY big and heavy engine, not to mention all the problems that I'm sure will pop up...so I'm sure there's somewhere that the 643 could run.

FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:

One of the reasons why Glenn may not have been able to find a place to run this locomotive is because it is not well suited for excursion service. Unlike the 2-10-4's of the C&O and the PRR, which were designed to be high-speed freight engines, the B&LE 2-10-4s were drag freight engines with a basic design stemming from the 1920s.

The B&LE Texas types had relatively small 64" diameter drivers. I would be willing to bet that the 643 has never been run faster than 35 mph in her entire operating career. A 10-drivered engine with only 64" diameter drivers has some serious counterbalance issues at high speeds. To achieve high speeds, the C&O and PRR engines had 69" drivers, but even they had some rough-riding characteristics at 50 mph. The B&LE didn't need high speeds from these locomotives, they needed lots of tractive effort at low speeds. They got just that with these engines, which were rated at 96,700 pounds of TE.

Unfortunately I don't see much of a future for this locomotive. It is too big, too heavy, and too ponderous to be a good candidate for excursion service. Class 1 railroads won't run it because it can't run fast enough to keep up with other traffic. Short lines, regional railroads and tourist lines don't want it on their lines because it's too big, too heavy and would be too hard on the track. The opportunity to get it to the Age of Steam Roundhouse went by the wayside when Jerry Jacobson passed away and the switch was removed.

As I said in an earlier post, without a LOT of money from someone who is willing and able to pay CSX to cut the main line track and move it over or temporarily put the switch back in so they can get it out of where it is by rail, this locomotive is destined to be one BIG orphan.

I couldn't agree with this more Rich.

I think that for the 643 to have operated, it would have needed basically it's own piece of trackage that could of course handle the weight of the locomotive. I personally think that Glenn bought the locomotive because he wanted to restore an engine and unfortunately, the 643 is the locomotive he found.

The 643 should never have left Greenville.

jim pastorius posted:

I had read that before that it wasn't the right design for excursions and would use too much coal. It would be nice if it was displayed and a better more suitable location.

The amount of coal it might use is not even on the list of reasons why it’s not a good loco for excursions. Coal costs can be easily dealt with in the ticket price. 

100 tons of excess weight is an insurmountable problem.

TrainMan1225 posted:

Maybe it could run on lines like the Cuyahoga Valley, where the speed limit is nice and slow. According to their FAQ page, the PRR T1 Trust apparently will be able to run their engine at Steamtown, the Steam Railroading Institute, and the Cuyahoga Valley Line, and that will be a VERY big and heavy engine, not to mention all the problems that I'm sure will pop up...so I'm sure there's somewhere that the 643 could run.

The speed limit on the Cuyahoga Valley is 29 mph...very close to the maximum speed of the 643.

Comparing a PRR T1 with the 643 is like comparing a Ferrari with a dump truck.

FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:

TrainMan1225 posted:

Maybe it could run on lines like the Cuyahoga Valley, where the speed limit is nice and slow. According to their FAQ page, the PRR T1 Trust apparently will be able to run their engine at Steamtown, the Steam Railroading Institute, and the Cuyahoga Valley Line, and that will be a VERY big and heavy engine, not to mention all the problems that I'm sure will pop up...so I'm sure there's somewhere that the 643 could run.

The speed limit on the Cuyahoga Valley is 29 mph...very close to the maximum speed of the 643.

Comparing a PRR T1 with the 643 is like comparing a Ferrari with a dump truck.

Totally agree.  Back in the early 2000’s, I ran excursion service in Westmoreland County, on the Laurel Valley RR.  Glenn arranged a meeting with us, and came to look at the track from Youngwood up to the south end of Greensburg.  All seemed well enough until we went down to the Rocks to see the loco.  What a beast!!!  Massive tonnage, ridiculous wheelbase, and a face only a mother could love!!  This was when I realized my opinion of Glenn was that he was crazy.  We operated on a shoestring budget and 10 mph track.  He had a monster, tons of dreams, and no budget.  Not only was there no solid plan on how to restore and certify the 643, the was no money to move it, no money for the track improvements, no facilities to store and service the engine, and nothing that could be done about some of the curves on the line.

Its a shame this machine continues to rust away, but I agree it should never have left Greenville.

Agreed on Greenville. The 643's best chance was with JJ. It may have never had a fire in it's belly ever again, but it would be safe and sound in that beautiful new roundhouse. 

Norm Charbonneau posted:

Maybe some millenial hipster types could build a big brewery around it while they gentrify and hipsterize the rest of the Rocks. They might be our only hope. 

OK Norm, I got you.  You can crash at my house until you figure out how to pull it off.     

George