Back to basics...O Gauge

That is always how I understood it. I have both 1:48 and 1:43 model locos, and they look pretty good together.  At least to me.  

I'm also fine with 1:43 cars and 1:50 trucks - both of which are in abundance.  They fit well on an O gauge layout.  The cars benefit by being just a tad easier to see and all, from that roughly 10% bump is scale, and the trucks are just about the right size.   

Someone is missing the boat here.  Scale and Gauge are not the same thing.

The Wikipedia entry seems to need some corecting.

The origin of ZERO  0 gauge is correct. Its smaller than 1 gauge.  But then 00 gauge, which became H0 is smaller, and 000 , which became N, is even smaller. The confusion is from the metric system.

0 SCALE is 1/4 inch to the foot.

00 (double 0) is 1/8 inch to the foot

Dont remember what 000 (treble 0) was.

0 SCALE is 1/48 actual size.

00, being half of 0, is 1/96 actual size, but when it went metric, they dropped the rounding which had the guage of the track at 5 feet, and brought it down to the real 4'8 1/2" which translated to 1/87th real size , and 3.5 MM to the foot.  Talk about a mess.

But how do you verify my numbers?

0n30 is used to represent narrow gauge track in 0 scale. The H0 track , which is supposed to be 1/2 the gauge of  0 track, scales out to 30 scale inches. Which is indeed 1/2 of our 0 Gauge of 60 scale inches.  

So what is going on?  When they went metric, they also corrected the gauge of the track, by changing the scale.  1/96 became 1/87, 1/48 became 1/43.  The track didnt change, the size of what goes on the track changed to fit the track accurately.

So what we have is 0 Scale, using 0 Gauge 1 1/4 track, is 1/43 actual size, but 0Gauge trains , which use 1 1/4 gauge track to represent a real 5 foot gauge, are 1/48 actual size.

All of the '0's' above are 'ZERO's' even though we like to pronounce them 'OH's'.

Heres more confusion. Many of you have at least heard of the old 0 Scale display layout at the Museum of Science and Industry. It dated back to the late 40's, early 50's. It has since been replaced with a wonderful HO layout.

The old layout was built, donated, and maintained by the Santa Fe Railroad. It was 1/48 0 SCALE, but 'Q' GAUGE. That is 1/48 of 4'8 1/2 inches.

So what we have is TWO VERSIONS of 0 SCALE. 1/48  represents 1/4 inch to the foot, with oversize gauge of 5', while 1/43 represents the same gauge as being 4' 8 1/2"

Is that enough confusion?

1/50 scale is most likely derived from an engineer or designer using a scale (ruler) divided in tenths of an inch.  A common architectural size, because big numbers are easily divided.  A standard scale (ruler) divided in sixteenths, or eights, gives you the common 1/48th.

I know there's more, but thats for some other time.

Great information Sway!

And yes, confusing!  Think I will go play with my confusing gauge/scale trains now.

Soooooo......to confuse the issue even further, British O scale at 7mm/foot didn't scale down well to HO at 3.5mm/ft, as the smaller prototype didn't leave room for the chunkier motors back then. So there was OO at 4mm/ft, which left undersize track gauge at 16.5 mm, so somebody invented EM gauge for "eighteen millimetre" which made it closer to American 00, so any Wikipedia entry on any scale and gauge will probably always have something missing (pause for breath) Now this Wikipedia entry has a mess of info, but goshdarn, they forgot the tinier-than-Z 'T' scale........http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...ling_scale_standards

Confusing??? 

Try explaining 'G' scale/gauge to a new modeler!!!!

1/32, 1/29, 1/24, 1.22.5, 1/20.....Euro ties, USA ties, many different rail codes.

#0, #1, #2 & #3 gauges were defined well before the vast majority of model trains were made to scale size.  with respect to that heritage, i refrain from using either O scale or G gauge/scale.  i have no problem accepting the miniscule error in track gauge when referring to 1/4" scale (1:48) trains running on O gauge track. i live in the US and that scale is by far the most popular.

and when referring to trains which use #1 gauge track, the only scales i recognize are 3/8" scale (1:32) which very accurately represents #1 gauge as US standard gauge of 56.5" and the NMRA defined Fn3 (the narrow gauge faction of 1:20.3 scale) which treats #1 gauge as US 3' narrow gauge.  there is likely some validity with 1:22.2 scale which would represent meter gauge, but not for US prototypes.

as far as the more popular smaller scale sizes, HO and N, despite Lionel's attempt to introduce toy trains in HO, these model sizes were introduced mainly to satisfy the demands of scale modelers.  in these cases, scale and gauge are indeed used interchangeably and i have no problem with anyone referencing HO (or N) scale or HO (or N) gauge.  there is no ambiguity with either term in these model sizes.

cheers...gary

I don't think the abundance of 1/43 cars comes from anything related to railroading. I think it's simply a common die-cast collectible scale, and by extension fairly common for toy-level die cast as well.

I'm not sure about the prevalence of 1/48th and 1/50th die-cast trucks, but my guess is that it comes from the finescale world where 1/48 is a reasonably common scale.  

Luckily both look pretty good alongside most all "0-scale" train stuff. 

Pictures of mixed scale.  1/43, 1/48, and 1/50.  It is difficult to tell the scale of each piece.

"There now, we can all sleep better tonight knowing these facts and work them into conversations"

I know I did. 

with any scale, i find consistency is the way to go.  i also at times have had 1:48 scale trains running on a layout with 1:43 autos and 1:50 for construction equipment and buses.  if you looked closely and gave it some thought, the buses did look smaller in scale, but not when just glanced at.  yet if i were to find a 1:48 auto and placed it by a 1:43 scale car, the difference would be immediately noticeable.

a similar situation involves live steam at my steam-only home track.  with 7.5" gauge, 1.6" scale is more accurate than 1.5" scale, but since most operators own 1.5" scale equipment, the few 1.6" scale trains appear to be too large.  similarly if one were to visit a track where most operate 1.6" scale diesel trains, 1.5" scale equipment appears to be too small.

a friend of mine operates a garden railroad with a mix of 1:32 and ridiculously oversized 1:29 equipment.  side-by-side, the difference is very noticeable.

cheers...gary

Mike CT

are the tractors in your pictures 1/43

if they are 1/48 or 1/50 would you identify the supplier

thank you

j

As as the old cigarette commercial stated "a silly millimeter longer"

So long as it runs on our 3 rail track and it looks good that works for me. I know there are rivet counters but I'd like to know of anyone that actually measures a train or vehicle to the real model to see if the scale dimensions are true.

A while back I had two Atlantic steam engines, one by MTH and one from Lionel. Both makers stated they were scale versions, however side by side the MTH version was larger. Who was true to the scale?  I never knew or cared

One thing to keep in mind is that not all of these models are exactly 1:43 or 1:48 or 1:50 may not be exactly that size. I've noticed some ERTL diecast trucks labeled 1:43 on the box aren't.  I've encountered one, a White cab over, that is noticeable larger than 1:43, and ERTL's Diamond T and International are a bit smaller - closer to 1:48.  There are some "1:43 cars that are 1:50.  It really depends and what I do is just look at the model and decide where it will look best.  Occasionally the answer is "No where on the layout: put it on a shelf."

Ok, now I have a headache. 

Sooo....

We're using the wrong nomenclature to pronounce "O scale/gauge" as "Oh scale/gauge" and instead it should be "Zero scale/gauge"?????

On the horror of it.

Don't know if I could EVER get my mind to think "Zero scale/gauge".

Very true.  There's even a term for it. "Box Scale" which means that even though it may say one scale, it's truely scaled mostly based on the size of the box, blister pack or tray that it will be sold in/from.  The solution is either to make measurements and do the math or just eyeball it.  I prefer the later.

OK David. Now to see if I can make your head explode.

Not only are some models mislabeled, but you have the issue of scale models of smaller or larger prototypes. Vehicles, tractors and construction equipment changed in length, width and height over the decades, not to mention European vs. North American prototypes Placing a 1/48 or 1/43 Porsche next to a 1/48 Buick would still yield a size difference that would look "normal". To most people, one farm tractor is the same as another so you could place older tractors on smaller flat cars and things would look normal (just don't let a tractor fan see that).

I have wondered about the differences in size when I started to buy my cars and trucks, now I know.

I noted the difference and once I realized O was not always O, I took the "smaller O" and place them in the back to give prospective, and shop a lot more carefully.

I also found MTH makes two different sizes, something they call scale, and the Imperial size which did not fix with what I had already. I am still a bit leery when I buy train cars now, especially when buying online.

So correct me if I am ms-understanding this proportion stuff:

If I assume MTH/Ross etc follows "Lionel standard" of 1.25" gauge from inside rail to inside rail, and real world 1:1 straight track gauge is 4'8.5" (56.5 ") inside rail to inside rail, then I calculated 56.5"/1.25" = 45.2.  So wouldn't scale be 1:45.2 to make engine and cars exactly fit Lionel O gauge track?  I know that 1:1 engines and car wheels are set at 56", give or take, to insure no tight track problems. 

That's why I got out of G scale.

RE RRman  - I think MTH European "O"  Gauge engines they are selling now are  "O" Scale European 1:45 scale

WHEW!  I think I need a beer, maybe a liter, maybe a quart, then I'll couple it with a foot-long hotdog, or maybe a package of 7 hotdogs coupled with a package of eight buns.  Go figure.  What to do with all those left-over buns?  Scale and gauge, track radius or track diameter, smoking diesels or not, painted people without faces, how to quiet Fastrack, these are the eternal questions that really need definitive answers.  

When I started in HO in 1966, a year after I got married , I wondered why HO (Half-O) was 1/87 and not 1/96, which would have been half of 1/48. It was then that I discovered that it was a European O trains gauge that was halved, the ones at 1/43.5 scale. Half of 1/43.5 = 1/87.

Full scale railroad (USA) distance between the rails is exactly 56.5 inches inside to inside of rails. If we divide 56.5 by 48, we get 1.177; rather close to the 1-1/4" spacing between the rails on my Atlas track.

Just my 2¢ worth.

Alex

close is the operative word.  many modelers believe the 6.0% error in 1:48 scale O gauge is unacceptable.  compare the scale/gauge error in HO (0.03%).

cheers...gary

1.177" is not close enough to 1.25" for a rivet counter! 1:45 is not close. it must be 1:45.2 exactly.

Rivet counters obsess over every minute detail, checking every rivet and nail is correctly placed and correct diameter and height to the 10,000th inch. They have working brake beams whose asbestos lined brake shoes  clasp the scale wheels when the hose line is pumped up with air, sliding doors that protypically squeak when opened.  They spend most of their waking hours poring over drawings and diagrams for any overlooked detail(s) of their one model.

And finally, when THE one and only car that the rivet counter has labored over for 50 years is finished, s/he puts it on O-27 Lionel track and pulls it with their childhood rusty scout engine!!

I would like to be able to make a perfect prototypical car once, but just to see how it's done. I'm happy with the box models and a little customizing for now.

Just crank em up and run round and round--its fun.

Yes!  I was upstairs earlier this morning running 1:48, 1:43 and "not-any-scale" locos and rolling stock, and 1:53, 1:50, 1:48, 1:43 trucks and cars.  It was a lot of fun, and nothing bad happened!  

For what it's worth, I enjoy the resources of the O Gauge Guild (in Great Britain) which has yet another definition of O gauge... http://www.gauge0guild.com/general/whatisg0.aspx