Base3 Availability

Wow,

Lots later than the hoped Spring of 2023.

Thanks for spotting that.

Jim

I'm not shocked at all about this

MTH is having difficulty sourcing parts for the new WTIU as well.  I bet we won't see either until mid next year, although I hope I'm wrong.

Yup. Lionel themselves just recently told a friend ...  4Q 2023.

Well, that’s nice to know, I’m just hoping when it arrives, there will be no issues and that the instruction manual is a good reference guide, and possibly OGR will do a instructional DVD. This is a big adventure for many of us Legacy users, it’s nice to know the Cab 1L as well as the Cab 2 remotes work with the new Cab 3 App. Thanks for this update. Happy Railroading Everyone

@rplst8 posted:

I just noticed on Charles Ro's site that availability for the Base3 is now listed as November 2023.

HEY DAVE,

Is This So???

FREDSTRAINS

I wonder if component availability is suddenly biting them in the butt?  It wouldn't surprise me much.

I’ll just have to wait a bit longer to enjoy the full potential of a Lionel Legacy locomotive with the Base 3 vs. using the universal remote. Being new o scale the 990 isn’t available unless you’re willing to pay ridiculous prices on eBay. I have a couple more Legacy’s on preorder, I’ll have to get another universal remote with them.

Gene

Like many of you, I had hoped to begin using the Base 3 in a few months.  But, we can't always get what we want (wasn't that a Rolling Stones song?)

I have no doubt that Lionel is working hard on bringing the product to market since it's in their best interest to do so.

If any or you have tried to buy household appliances recently, you'll know that for many specific items there is 2-6 month wait.

And EVs?  Almost impossible to find other than few base models.

Can't blame Lionel ... or Dave.  It is disappointing.

@rthomps posted:

Like many of you, I had hoped to begin using the Base 3 in a few months.  But, we can't always get what we want (wasn't that a Rolling Stones song?)

I have no doubt that Lionel is working hard on bringing the product to market since it's in their best interest to do so.

If any or you have tried to buy household appliances recently, you'll know that for many specific items there is 2-6 month wait.

And EVs?  Almost impossible to find other than few base models.

Can't blame Lionel ... or Dave.  It is disappointing.

Totally understand. We live in a new 55+ community and the last sold unit took almost 2 months waiting for Anderson windows.

Well, the resale price of your CAB2 Legacy Base just shot up today, along with the stock market.

Hard to tell where the hangups are. Product could be missing components, or might be completed but sitting in a box somewhere: I ordered a Snapper mower in March of 2021, and it didn't arrive until March 2022. The build date on the mower? March 2021!

At a recent industry meeting, an electronics manufacturer posted a slide showing lead times from major semiconductor (chips, transistors) manufacturers.  Most were at 12+ months.

I spoke to Rich Sutton of MTH at York, he said the new DCS base was expected April 2023.  He said it was issues with components and also quality issues,that the supply chain is brutal for almost all of it. Not a surprise , this is happening with almost everything.  No matter where stuff is assembled, getting the parts is really, really difficult.  Was speaking to a friend who works in the auto supply chain, said car production is still hampered, operating at best at 80%.

And no this isn't the fault of Lionel or MTH, what happens is they have a projected schedule that takes into account delivery of components, they are told it is good, then they get notified some component is either delayed or worse, suddenly no longer being made. This is a classic example of what happens when you don't have control of your supply chain, it is why with lean production they emphasized local suppliers . 

All we can do is hope. I am wiring my layout for block control, if the stuff shows up when I am ready to run trains, great, if not I'll run conventional.  One thing that could screw this up, if Covid flares in China&they pull shutdowns, it could throw another monkey wrench in things.

I have a project waiting in the wings, but I can't proceed because of component availability, so I know it's real.  Most of the processors I use have a one year lead time!

This whole O scale command situation is ridiculous.

@PRRick posted:

This whole O scale command situation is ridiculous.

@PRRick,

I hear ya but ...

Exactly how?  I have what I need.  Most everyone I know has what they need.  Newbies have to find what they need, pre-owned and probably at high cost, but it's there.

Where is the crisis?  With people who think that they must have more than they need, just in case?  Or, with folks who absolutely have to have the latest?

It might be these, but it's also clearly with a lack of patience.  We all need to practice relaxing a bit.  I'm at the front of the line needing to do so myself.

Relaxation is the main reason most people take up a hobby.  This is probably a good time to calm down and wait it out.

Mike

If you're new to the hobby and want to run high-end command stuff, you're pretty much screwed these days.  If you've been running command for a while, you shouldn't feel any of this nonsense.  I'm still running TMCC.  It does what I want it to do, reliably every time.  I have spare Base-1's and Cab-1's, bought on the cheap when everyone was 'upgrading' to Legacy ($50 or less each for a Base-1 or Cab-1).  I personally will never buy a Base-3, regardless of when they are available or what they cost.

Don't mind me, just seeing what all the fuss is about...

Rumor today, maybe the cab 3 app/base will be delayed until next year? And another rumor, Lionel isn’t repairing the Cab 2 sets any longer…. Can someone verify this rumor, I hope it isn’t true…  MartyE, Gunrunner John, Harmonyards, Lionel? Trainworld, Charles Ro, Anyone…  I understand the Cab 1L remotes are the remotes of choice now, but, the Cab 2 remote is so much more fun. Happy Railroading Everyone

@leapinlarry posted:

Rumor today, maybe the cab 3 app/base will be delayed until next year? And another rumor, Lionel isn’t repairing the Cab 2 sets any longer…. Can someone verify this rumor, I hope it isn’t true…  MartyE, Gunrunner John, Harmonyards, Lionel? Trainworld, Charles Ro, Anyone…  I understand the Cab 1L remotes are the remotes of choice now, but, the Cab 2 remote is so much more fun. Happy Railroading Everyone

Well, that's not good news if true. We pre-ordered CAB1L remotes & a Base 3 for the club last year and our dealer called last week and wanted us to take delivery of the CAB1L remotes. We initially told them to hold the remotes until the BASE 3 shipped but he wasn't sure when that would be, also wouldn't confirm that it would be this year (2023)... They wanted to make sure that we got our CAB1L remotes so that they wouldn't be sold out or unavailable when the BASE 3 arrives.

@H1000, my advice is, if you have the Cab 2 Legacy system, cab 2 and Legacy base, go ahead and secure the Cab 1L’ s while you can. I’ll make the call to Lionel tomorrow for my own verification. Although I like the Legacy System, it’s beyond me why Lionel can’t keep this system up and running with new remotes. It’s All About the MONEY, and we actually have the money. Nuff Sayd. Happy Railroading Everyone

@leapinlarry That's what we did. This club does have a Base 2 with a CAB2 and CAB1L. There's interest with the new CAB3 app and everyone is comfortable with the CAB1L and a couple more would be nice as backups / spares.

The writing is on the wall for the CAB2 especially when Lionel stops repairing/supporting them (if it hasn't happened already according to your rumor). The CAB1L being a simpler device has a better chance of longer product life but much like a fine wine, eventually all good things come to an end.

Maybe just do a @Dave Olson and maybe her can confirm or deny if he chooses. Unfortunately the last time Dave talked about something no longer being sold, like the ERR components, it turned into a crap fest so I wouldn’t count on him commenting nor do I blame him.

As far as Lionel making more Cab2s, I’m not sure how many ways they have to tell us it’s an obsolescence issue of components. I’m sure they could actually make them if we wanted to pay the price to get them re-engineered.  I know I am not a fan of App based controllers but I am also realistic to the need to move away from a dedicated remote and just supply software to a phone.  There are so many more features you can add to an App that the limits of hardware might otherwise prevent.  Again  ido prefer a hardware handheld but I also see some of the advantages of app when it comes to expanding the system.

Lionel said they’d repair Cab2s as long as they had inventory of parts so I would believe this would be the determining factor on whether they repair them or not.

@leapinlarry I look forward to seeing what you find out.

I have no inside information, but if that rumor is true (that the Base3 is now pushed out to 2024) then I think the lesson that Lionel should take from this is that they're trying to do too much in one package.

As I understand it, it has radios for Bluetooth, WiFi, original LionChief, and Legacy remotes (Cab-2 and Cab-1L). That's A LOT of RF to have to support in one box. (Edit: Oh! and the 455kHz track signal interface.)

The other thought I would submit is that it's very likely that while the Bluetooth and WiFi radios are likely commodity parts (something that is already self contained and maybe even FCC certified or registered) they put themselves at the mercy of these parts being available. If something on those parts change, it can have downstream dependencies in the rest of the design.

I think this design is really just trading off one set of "gotchas" that the physical remote/base had for another set of gotchas in dealing with integration challenges on such a complex mix of technology.

I wonder if in the interim, Lionel could take a different tack and offer a Base3-Lite that is just the electronics from the Base-1L inside of the Base3 shell using the new power supply that allows the TMCC/Legacy signal to work and meets whatever new rules the UL had for transformers that necessitated them discontinuing the old Base-1L.  Something like this would at least let people use their new Cab-1Ls and control most of the functions of their new Legacy locomotives.

@MartyE posted:

Maybe just do a @Dave Olson and maybe her can confirm or deny if he chooses. Unfortunately the last time Dave talked about something no longer being sold, like the ERR components, it turned into a crap fest so I wouldn’t count on him commenting nor do I blame him.

In all fairness Marty, the announcement of discontinuing the ERR line has a much larger impact than a few months delay of the BASE3!  As far as the other parts of the rumor, we already knew that the CAB2 has a limited life.

@MartyE posted:

Maybe just do a @Dave Olson and maybe her can confirm or deny if he chooses. Unfortunately the last time Dave talked about something no longer being sold, like the ERR components, it turned into a crap fest so I wouldn’t count on him commenting nor do I blame him.

As far as Lionel making more Cab2s, I’m not sure how many ways they have to tell us it’s an obsolescence issue of components. I’m sure they could actually make them if we wanted to pay the price to get them re-engineered.

Going back to M.R. I've always felt like the shots were called upstairs from the service dept, and these guys have to figure out how to make x happen.

However, every time I search a DCC remote system. I see a handheld with a screen ,buttons, and a throttle knob. I wonder, what if.

Maybe eliminating the cab 2 cuts down on warranty repairs. If you drop your phone and Crack the screen . It's your problem.

Back to base 3,  I wish the best for those that order it. Hopefully someone will have a more accurate eta from Dave. Ive always found him responsive to emails.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

In all fairness Marty, the announcement of discontinuing the ERR line has a much larger impact than a few months delay of the BASE3!  As far as the other parts of the rumor, we already knew that the CAB2 has a limited life.

I am specifically talk about the Cab2 repair issue.  If Lionel is no longer accepting Legacy systems for repair I imagine that might be so well received but if parts are an issue there is not much Lionel can do about it.

Base 3 I don't necessarily have an issue with being delayed as I want it done right as Dave has always said was his goal. 

@MartyE posted:

Base 3 I don't necessarily have an issue with being delayed as I want it done right as Dave has always said was his goal.

I'm not worried about the BASE3.  Although I may eventually have one, I see no reason to be in the first wave of beta testers!   Since I have the Legacy system and a spare command base, I'm set right now for Lionel command control.

@MartyE posted:

I am specifically talk about the Cab2 repair issue.  If Lionel is no longer accepting Legacy systems for repair I imagine that might be so well received but if parts are an issue there is not much Lionel can do about it.

It wouldn't surprised me if that happened.  Keeping with the move that saw all the TMCC and early Legacy parts suddenly declared obsolete and yanked from the parts site, dropping support for the current Legacy system would follow right along.  It seems apparent that Lionel is not interested in keeping older stuff running in hopes you'll jump on their new bandwagon and spend more money.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

In all fairness Marty, the announcement of discontinuing the ERR line has a much larger impact than a few months delay of the BASE3!  As far as the other parts of the rumor, we already knew that the CAB2 has a limited life.

Sorry, I know this thread is about Cab3, but I must have missed something. Is Lionel no longer going to be supplying the ERR boards to 3rd rail? Or was this the older legacy boards?

With Cab3, I don't think the complexity is why it is delayed, it is quite frankly that production in China is a ***** (fill in your favorite expression). MTH has the same problem, and the new DCS is not quite as complex, and they are delayed (I suspect it won't show this spring, but that is another story). Everyone is having problems, Apple has trouble getting components still, and it isn't even complex things, parts for things like lawn mowers and small engines have problems.

As far as the command control units being delayed, it will affect newcomers to the hobby pretty heavily or those looking to get into it if it is delayed into next year (folks, that will be basically 4 years without them having command control units for sale; at least lionel with lc 2.0 and later legacy have bluetooth connectivity via the App). And based on what I have seen around, I don't think people are going to spend a ton of money on old DCS or Base 2 systems people have for sale *shrug*.   

@bigkid posted:

Sorry, I know this thread is about Cab3, but I must have missed something. Is Lionel no longer going to be supplying the ERR boards to 3rd rail? Or was this the older legacy boards?

I think that was in reference to the original discontinuation announcement. Luckily that crisis was mostly averted when Scott and 3rd Rail stepped up to the plate to take ownership of that product line.

With Cab3, I don't think the complexity is why it is delayed, it is quite frankly that production in China is a ***** (fill in your favorite expression). MTH has the same problem, and the new DCS is not quite as complex, and they are delayed (I suspect it won't show this spring, but that is another story). Everyone is having problems, Apple has trouble getting components still, and it isn't even complex things, parts for things like lawn mowers and small engines have problems.

You might be right. I may be placing too much focus on the "do-it-all" aspect of the Base3. I typically favor modular designs though.

As far as the command control units being delayed, it will affect newcomers to the hobby pretty heavily or those looking to get into it if it is delayed into next year (folks, that will be basically 4 years without them having command control units for sale; at least lionel with lc 2.0 and later legacy have bluetooth connectivity via the App). And based on what I have seen around, I don't think people are going to spend a ton of money on old DCS or Base 2 systems people have for sale *shrug*.

In the short term, I see prices continuing to be crazy high for the Cab-2 990 and 993 sets, as well as the Base-1L that are on the secondary market. I wonder how long it will be until someone reverse engineers the Bluetooth communications with the locomotives and offers an app of their own that can control a a bunch of locomotives, and undercuts much of the appeal of the Base3. It still doesn't help control older TMCC and non-BT Legacy engines, but it would at least get operations down to say an older TMCC Cab-1 and a phone for anything newer.

Well we have little control over any of this.  If Base 3 is delayed I suspect if it's a parts issue then Lionel doesn't either.  I'm sure there is nothing Dave and the Lionel folks would like more than to have us using it ASAP.  From what I have seen Dave showed us on "Demos with Dave" it looks like it will be a lot of fun. BTW we are due for another DWD aren't we?

Cab2 parts and repair basically the same.  If Lionel doesn't have the parts then there's nothing they can do about it.  I suspect not all parts would be "poof" gone so it maybe Lionel repairs these on a basis of availability depending on what the issue is.

I do know that I was always careful with my Cab2 and I am even more so now but sometime stuff happens and things fail. 

I'll see what and if Larry finds anything out.  As I stated in the "Stress" thread, I just don't let train stuff bother me to that degree anymore.  Bae 3 will get here when it gets here and knock on wood my Legacy system is still working fine.

@MartyE posted:

Cab2 parts and repair basically the same.  If Lionel doesn't have the parts then there's nothing they can do about it.  I suspect not all parts would be "poof" gone so it maybe Lionel repairs these on a basis of availability depending on what the issue is.

Marty, I never expected all the TMCC & early Legacy electronics to go "poof" and be gone in an instant, so I guess I'm not so confident!

@MartyE posted:

Well we have little control over any of this.  If Base 3 is delayed I suspect if it's a parts issue then Lionel doesn't either.  I'm sure there is nothing Dave and the Lionel folks would like more than to have us using it ASAP.  From what I have seen Dave showed us on "Demos with Dave" it looks like it will be a lot of fun. BTW we are due for another DWD aren't we?

Cab2 parts and repair basically the same.  If Lionel doesn't have the parts then there's nothing they can do about it.  I suspect not all parts would be "poof" gone so it maybe Lionel repairs these on a basis of availability depending on what the issue is.

I do know that I was always careful with my Cab2 and I am even more so now but sometime stuff happens and things fail.

I'll see what and if Larry finds anything out.  As I stated in the "Stress" thread, I just don't let train stuff bother me to that degree anymore.  Bae 3 will get here when it gets here and knock on wood my Legacy system is still working fine.

Next Ryan & Dave show is Thursday Jan12th at 1PM Eastern.

Jim

I don't think Lionel is happy this unit is delayed, I think they realize the potential for it, given it can control pretty much anything they have offered and how much they have advertised it. Just to give context on the continuing mess with China, I was just reading this article about how all these companies are shifting operations out of China/Asia and into in this case Mexico, and it is so rapid (and please, don't make this a political thing, it isn't, or whether I think it is good or bad, it is just to give context) that they can't keep up with the logistics on the border crossing points, roads, bridges, rail, warehouses. That I think tells you how bad it is, and why Lionel and other things are so delayed.

My thought is that people who have been in the hobby for years already have TMCC, Legacy, or some version thereof (e.g., cab-1L and base), as several have noted.  Newbies are mostly buying new locos which can be controlled by the app or the Universal Remote.  A boatload of angst about the Base 3 delays,  given these realities (and the $55 MSRP of the Universal Remote) would be a mystery to me,  for that reason.  If you like the app, that works. If you like a physical remote, you already have one or more, or can buy a  Universal Remote that does a lot of the basic important stuff.  The inability to provide track would be a much bigger issue, for example.

PS--I'm pretty sure I'll get a Base 3, whether I need it or not , down the road.  Yoda says "Patient, be you" and enjoy today.

@Landsteiner posted:

My thought is that people who have been in the hobby for years already have TMCC, Legacy, or some version thereof (e.g., cab-1L and base), as several have noted. 

Ding ding. It seems like a lot of the pining for the Base 3 already have one of the above. Same people who must have the newest thing because it's new. If someone already has a 990/Base 1L/TMCC base they are good to go. It's mostly a problem for people who just started and are trying to get a Legacy system, which is NOT 98% of the people posting here wondering where the Base 3 is. They just want their new toy.

Well, I am a guy who bought his first Legacy engine in late 2020, has bought more since, and still can’t access most features because Lionel has no product to offer and I refuse to spend $800+ at auction on a used, unwarranted 990.

This *is* a mess. Lionel will be going on 3 years offering high-end engines in its catalog for which it does not offer a controller.

Now that I’m halfway through my 73rd year on this wonderful planet I’m just about done with all this crap. Enjoyment is rapidly diminishing.