I am officially impressed, Mr. Ironbound. Very nice!
Forgot all about the brushless motor perspective. Yes, the torque from those things is incredible!!!
So, with all the excitement building, here's a prediction/request of der webmeister....
There should be a separate forum topic to address Radio Control and Battery Powered discussions...among the Control System Forums.
(Which I see that Bill Nielson has already promoted in the Forum Suggestions category. We agree, Bill!!!)
) You know, plan ahead...lead with the topic...capture the growing interest/technology...promote the idea....etc.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch...
KD
I agree KD that we may want to start a RC/Battery forum. If we get enough participants and show enough support maybe we'll see an inexpensive system to control our engines.
Most folks I've seen talking about it always include DCC in the comments, I'd like to see a basic RC/battery system with the ability to ADD DCC, or lights, or sound only (personally, I'd like lights before any other add-on) and not something that merely adds to the initial cost.
The current makers seem to cater to HO as their decoders aren't hefty enough for O scale use, we need to get their attention and change that.
bob2, Ed Reutling has done just what you suggest, using existing RC car equipment to power his engine.
This thread is accessible, and receives an average of one post a day. Is that enough to support a separate category?
The DCC forum (and the 3RS forum) aren't as "lively" as the others, so I don't see why not.
I agree with dkdkrd, why be the last to get on board. No point in fighting technology, learn how to use it.
Here is a link - it is interesting reading, but a bit sad at the end. Joe was a major spark plug in the battery power business.
I think that the 3 RS folks would have the most to gain with this technology. I would love to get rid of the "dirty track" syndrome, but my new track cleaning car has presented a partial cure. You have to wait until November to see it.
So, OK - I would open a separate section to follow this, but it is just as easy to open this thread. Here is the link - note that the last post was a year ago:
The current makers seem to cater to HO as their decoders aren't hefty enough for O scale use, we need to get their attention and change that.
The combo of a QSI Gwire receiver and a QSI Titan Magnum will work for O scale amperages. The Titan Magnum has two flavors. 6 amp and 10 amp.
Originally Posted by Bob Delbridge:
Most folks I've seen talking about it always include DCC in the comments, I'd like to see a basic RC/battery system with the ability to ADD DCC, or lights, or sound only (personally, I'd like lights before any other add-on) and not something that merely adds to the initial cost.
You have to have some type of motor control system. Otherwise, how is the fixed battery voltage modulated to the motors for speed control?
It's just that every other scale except O uses DCC (I'm not going to count MTH HO DCS).
Just dawned on me as a scratch builder, I would not have to insulate the drivers, how about that! No need to fuss about current pickup, polarity at the switch points, reverse loops, etc. Looking better all the time.
Use an ESC (Electronic Speed Controller) like the RC car guys do vice DCC, although it may not be any more cost effective.
The link I posted on page one for RCS has a system I've been looking at.
And, depending on flange depth, you just might be able to run your 3 rail engines on code 148 2 rail...saving time & money.
Allan
The S-Cab web site shows a NCE 408 @ 4amps should be plenty for O scale. Stephen (cTr...Choose the Right)
Originally Posted by Harmon:
Just dawned on me as a scratch builder, I would not have to insulate the drivers, how about that! No need to fuss about current pickup, polarity at the switch points, reverse loops, etc. Looking better all the time.
No shorts to worry about with brass engines, and no track wiring....any complex track configuration you want!
Simon
Originally Posted by Harmon:
Just dawned on me as a scratch builder, I would not have to insulate the drivers, how about that! No need to fuss about current pickup, polarity at the switch points, reverse loops, etc. Looking better all the time.
Take a look at Andy Romano's "Ironbound Railroad" if you want to see a GREAT battery operated pike. There are a couple recent posts on this forum.
Simon
Another great O scale layout on battery power is Bernard Kempinski's "U.S.M.R.R Virginia 1863". He uses S-Cab.
Another wireless system that has my attention is the WiFi system "Layout IoE" (Internet of everything) (click here to visit their site) that uses WiFi and is controlled using any WiFi Device- PC, Laptop, tablet, Iphone, Android- basically anything. Picture this- you have family over and the kids can pull out their phone and drive grandpas trains with them. He is also integrating complete layout control of all aspects into the system and has turnout controls and signals as well. He announced today that the first units are rolling off the line after jumping through all of the FCC hoops and such. He also has the fancy battery control setup like Stanton where you can grab juice from the rails whenever it is available and still skip things like turnout and reverse loop wiring. Just wire the major legs of the layout, or you could even just wire a charging yard where you park trains to charge. You can get the WiFi controller units with or without battery option, so if you already have a fully wired layout you can use whatever track power is there and have full WiFi loco control and not pay extra for battery option. Controller with battery setup and no sound = $120 Software is $40, one time purchase of course. He even has bare Wifi controllers you can use to automate just about anything - and only $30! Still no picture of a finished product, but this here is really one to watch folks.
As I noted earlier, I have been using battery power for my locos on The Ironbound
for getting near to 10 years now. I can't say that I would recommend it or not... like most things... like batteries themselves the concept has both pluses and minuses ; ) To me, the biggest problem is the size/weight of the batteries. The RCS system I use is great in that the electrical components are plenty petite and will fit nicely in most O scale rolling stock. The controller is about the size of a pack of ciggies. They also make a large hand-held with more features but it seems overkill to me. Not exactly inexpensive either. But the weight of batteries powerful enuf to pull a weighty train is heavy enuf so that I can’t pull the battery-carrying car up the stiffest grade on my layout using a single B+B Diesel with more than 5 or 6 freight cars. (I should note that The Ironbound is a 2-Rail Scale layout... 3R locos with magnetic wheels might do much better?) Batteries will not fit in a GP-size Diesel along with its motor, gearing, electronics, etc. I have managed to squeeze them all into an RDC, or E-unit-size Diesel. I do not run steam anymore but I think you can fit all into a larger tender... but boy it will be heavy! No problem on level track but anything more than perhaps a max 1 1/2% grade... not so much. Even LiPo batteries.
Yes, no insulation required on loco wheels, no track issues, let the dirt pile up, no problem. On the other hand, you DO have to modify your locos so that the battery power does NOT feed back down thru wheels to rails. This could cause all kinds of electrical issues. I have disconnected all my loco truck wiring from the motor.
I am not at all comfortable with electronics... it’s never been “my thing.” So I don’t know how it will work with DCC or other control systems. Nicola Tesla had the right idea for model railroading... wireless transmission of electrical energy! Just imagine!!!
~Andy
Originally Posted by rdunniii:
Originally Posted by Bob Delbridge:
Most folks I've seen talking about it always include DCC in the comments, I'd like to see a basic RC/battery system with the ability to ADD DCC, or lights, or sound only (personally, I'd like lights before any other add-on) and not something that merely adds to the initial cost.
You have to have some type of motor control system. Otherwise, how is the fixed battery voltage modulated to the motors for speed control?
It's just that every other scale except O uses DCC (I'm not going to count MTH HO DCS).
Andy,
Sounds like what you have is what I've been looking at.
Here's a link to some posts between myself and Tony Walsham (RCS) starting back in 2013:
Hi Bob,
I haven’t exchanged eMails with him in awhile, but I got my RCS components from a very helpful fellow right here in the States... Don Sweet... somewhere up in New England as I recall. Maybe he isn’t handling the system anymore, but I think he is. I seem to recall he was beginning to handle a line of high-end steam models, museum quality, not the usual imported brass O. You may be able to locate his website by googling RCS, wireless battery control or some such keywords. My only qualms about the stuff after 8 years of use (incidentally I am still using the original rechargeable AA battery packs from 8 years ago!) are that there is no visible indicator (such as an amber LED) of when batteries are too low... the locos will inevitable stall in the most inaccessible spot on the layout ; ) and the total price for equipping one unit. The AA packs (you need two packs [6 AAs in each] to get 14V) juuuusssst fit laying down sideways inside an O scale body shell... since max speed on The Ironbound RR is 25mph, 14V is adequate. I have never tried MU-ing with the system but I’m sure it works like any other. I wrote an article on this subject a few years ago which appeared in O Scale Trains Magazine... had photos of the setups and so forth. The components have been updated since then.
I originally switched to battery because the layout is in an in-use garage. Open that wide door and all kinds of dust and pollen seems to be drawn to the railhead. Got tired of cleaning rails, and also had lots of electrical continuity with the Atlas switch frogs which I use. None of these problems ever anymore.
~Andy
Originally Posted by Bob Delbridge:
Andy,
Sounds like what you have is what I've been looking at.
Here's a link to some posts between myself and Tony Walsham (RCS) starting back in 2013:
I will be doing some tests soon using battery power with the Tam Valley dead rail wireless DCC setup. If all goes well I will be using QSI Titan decoders. Perhaps a TCS WowSound as well. I'd like to keep the amp draw down so I can use the smaller HO size decoders to save more room for batteries. I'm going to attempt to convert a steam engine with a fan driven smoke unit as well. I'll post my results when I have something to show.
Jonathan
Jonathan
Johathan, this sounds great. But, how do you plan to keep the amperage below 1.5 amps and especially with a smoke unit added?
Thanks
Austin Bill
Originally Posted by Austin Bill:
Johathan, this sounds great. But, how do you plan to keep the amperage below 1.5 amps and especially with a smoke unit added?
Thanks
Austin Bill
That's the trick... I was going to experiment with more efficient motors like Maxon and possible a relay setup to drive the smoke unit from the battery directly and not through the decoder. May or may not work. We'll see.
Jonathan,
I wish you good luck with this project. Keep us informed about your experiments with the Maxon motors. I read a lot of good things about their motors, all being Swiss-made. You can request a complete paperback catalog on their website. I received it soon after I requested it but when the sales rep learnt that I was not a small company, but an individual hobbyist, I never heard back from her.
These are just my opinion,
Thanks,
Naveen Rajan
I don't see the advantage of using Tam Valley compared to other options like Stanton. Example: A TV R/C controller costs $70 WITHOUT the DCC controller which you have to have. That is another $50-$150 on top of that, and then you get to manually wire the units together. They don't offer charging through the rails, and, as a matter of fact Tam Valley suggests that you not only take the unit off of the rails to charge, but that you actually REMOVE the battery they use entirely from the loco to charge it. This is a direct quote from the TV site explaining how to use their version of battery power:
We recommend removing your battery and charging it in a coffee cup as they have been known to explode. If you cannot remove it, then charge it at the slowest rate possible on your charger.
Have fun pulling the battery unit out of your loco every time you use it. I do not understand why someone would choose a system that has less features, costs more, requires ridiculous charging procedures, and is so poorly designed that the unit is in danger of exploding even when you follow their recommended practices when there are other options available. I wish you well with your adventure Jonathon, please let us know how it works out for you.
P.S: I think using a smoke unit with batteries is a bad idea, especially those that are none for EXPLODING when overloads are applied to the system. If you really want smoke, you should look at getting power from the rails for the smoke unit.
Originally Posted by Owen Thurdee:
I don't see the advantage of using Tam Valley compared to other options like Stanton. Example: A TV R/C controller costs $70 WITHOUT the DCC controller which you have to have. That is another $50-$150 on top of that, and then you get to manually wire the units together. They don't offer charging through the rails, and, as a matter of fact Tam Valley suggests that you not only take the unit off of the rails to charge, but that you actually REMOVE the battery they use entirely from the loco to charge it. This is a direct quote from the TV site explaining how to use their version of battery power:
We recommend removing your battery and charging it in a coffee cup as they have been known to explode. If you cannot remove it, then charge it at the slowest rate possible on your charger.
Have fun pulling the battery unit out of your loco every time you use it. I do not understand why someone would choose a system that has less features, costs more, requires ridiculous charging procedures, and is so poorly designed that the unit is in danger of exploding even when you follow their recommended practices when there are other options available. I wish you well with your adventure Jonathon, please let us know how it works out for you.
P.S: I think using a smoke unit with batteries is a bad idea, especially those that are none for EXPLODING when overloads are applied to the system. If you really want smoke, you should look at getting power from the rails for the smoke unit.
A little education never hurts... As I posted earlier: https://ogrforum.com/t...56#33669283023583256
There are other options for batteries. LiPoly batteries are prone to catch fire and explode if mis-handled. LiFePo4, NiMH, and NiCad batteries aren't.
One big pro for Tam Valley is using an existing DCC system and not having to purchase all new throttles. One big con is obviously the lower amp rating. That is something that can be addressed though. The fact is that most of this is being done in smaller scales where 1.5A is plenty. Somebody just needs to make a version with higher capacity. Just like Protocraft did with the Tsunami.
If you aren't as much of an audiophile as I am then you may want to look at the Ring Engineering RailPro system: http://www.ringengineering.com/RailPro.htm
It has the best user interface on the market IMHO. They are going to be adding bigger higher amp boards soon. The whole system is two way direct radio. It makes DCC and anything else discussed here look pre-historic. All you have to do is plug in a battery on one end and connect it to the loco on the other and you have a wireless battery powered system like no other. As soon as their sounds are up to my standards that's the way I'm going.
As I model in O scale narrow gauge, I was very interested in battery RC. Anyone who's ever operated on someone's layout with electrical issues with DCC knows how big a pain that can be.
But my problem is most of that geear won't fit in a tender or locomotive in my gauge and would require another car to be premanently mounted behind the tender of any locomotive. Nope, not going that way...
I am aware of other battery systems. I gathered from your posts that you were going to use the TV system in it's entirety. That makes up for one of the shortfalls of using it.
The Ring system has a lot going for it , but has some bad points as well. For starters it is expensive - but what isn't? It does cost more than others- approximately 2x Stanton for the basic setup for instance. In previous posts Stanton was being proclaimed to be crazy expensive- go figure. Also: Ring does not offer battery power setups. Your best bet if you wanted Ring with battery would be to use the Stanton Battery and controller. Then you have to send them pictures of your loco, which they make into an icon and send it back to you, and then you install that on your controller. This makes zero sense to me. Why can't you just do it yourself? What happens if Ring is gone tomorrow? Then, you cant operate Ring equipped locos on anything but the Ring powered layout. Kind of limiting there. With the Stanton system you can plunk your loco down on ANY layout and run it, regardless of whether the layout has (DC/DCC/AC) type of juice in the rails or not. Ring costs more and delivers less, this is hardly a good deal. The only thing it does have going for it is also the biggest problem. Scour the forums a bit and you will find threads from guys who have problems with interference from other wireless devices, sometimes not being able to operate during shows when there are 1,000 WiFi devices in people's pockets within range.
A few posts up I mentioned Layout IoE which is the latest WiFi system to come along, although it is in it's infancy. If it proves to be what is promised it just might be a game changer for the MRR world.
Originally Posted by Owen Thurdee:
I am aware of other battery systems. I gathered from your posts that you were going to use the TV system in it's entirety. That makes up for one of the shortfalls of using it.
The Ring system has a lot going for it , but has some bad points as well. For starters it is expensive - but what isn't? It does cost more than others- approximately 2x Stanton for the basic setup for instance. In previous posts Stanton was being proclaimed to be crazy expensive- go figure. Also: Ring does not offer battery power setups. Your best bet if you wanted Ring with battery would be to use the Stanton Battery and controller. Then you have to send them pictures of your loco, which they make into an icon and send it back to you, and then you install that on your controller. This makes zero sense to me. Why can't you just do it yourself? What happens if Ring is gone tomorrow? Then, you cant operate Ring equipped locos on anything but the Ring powered layout. Kind of limiting there. With the Stanton system you can plunk your loco down on ANY layout and run it, regardless of whether the layout has (DC/DCC/AC) type of juice in the rails or not. Ring costs more and delivers less, this is hardly a good deal. The only thing it does have going for it is also the biggest problem. Scour the forums a bit and you will find threads from guys who have problems with interference from other wireless devices, sometimes not being able to operate during shows when there are 1,000 WiFi devices in people's pockets within range.
A few posts up I mentioned Layout IoE which is the latest WiFi system to come along, although it is in it's infancy. If it proves to be what is promised it just might be a game changer for the MRR world.
I'm sorry, but you are incorrect about RailPro not offering battery capability. The system uses DC power. Whether that comes from their DC power supply or a battery makes no difference at all. You can also easily drop it on a DC or DCC layout and run it. Call them. They will tell you that they have customers doing exactly that. As for cost just compare the street price of the RP to the Street price of a wireless 10A DCC system and see how they stack up. And that DCC system still wouldn't have the features that RP does.
I'm not going to repeat all of the features, but if anyone is interested just watch the videos here:
Layout IoE is interesting and I look forward to seeing how it develops.
The battery system from Ring you are pointing to is for the handheld controller, NOT the loco. They do not offer loco battery power and clearly state that it is not the best option for their system, but instead offer you a cheapo ~$10 value PC PSU unit to supply power into your rails for only $269! Then on top of that you require their auto-reverser units and such. I have been adding up what it costs to start off with Ring compared to Stanton, and my 2x estimate was a bit off, as it is actually closer to 4x the amount to get started, and it isn't even battery powered! You would need to buy something like the Stanton battery system on top of that 4x to make that happen. If you are going to play the expert, Jonathon, perhaps you should at least read what you are linking to.
Originally Posted by Owen Thurdee:
The battery system from Ring you are pointing to is for the handheld controller, NOT the loco. They do not offer loco battery power and clearly state that it is not the best option for their system, but instead offer you a cheapo ~$10 value PC PSU unit to supply power into your rails for only $269! Then on top of that you require their auto-reverser units and such. I have been adding up what it costs to start off with Ring compared to Stanton, and my 2x estimate was a bit off, as it is actually closer to 4x the amount to get started, and it isn't even battery powered! You would need to buy something like the Stanton battery system on top of that 4x to make that happen. If you are going to play the expert, Jonathon, perhaps you should at least read what you are linking to.
I'm glad you like the Stanton. Go use it. I'm not downplaying it as an option.
Secondly, don't assume you know what I am talking about... I'm not talking about the handheld. Seriously? If you want to make accusations, then perhaps you should get a little more involved than just reading websites. I am not claiming to be an expert. I am merely trying to share some knowledge with my fellow model railroaders that they may find interesting. And I'm even doing it on a thread about battery power...hmmm
I have personally spoken to the gentleman who owns and developed the RailPro system on several occasions. I'm not reading off a website, I am speaking of first hand conversations here. He has customers using battery power with RailPro. He told me so himself. It CAN be done. Even your own link points to that "** RailPro system uses fixed voltage DC power. So, yes, it could be powered by a battery. The minimum voltage would be about 12 volts. " 
.
I'm bored of this argument. If anyone is interested and would like what limited first hand info I can offer you can feel free to contact me offline directly. I'd be glad to share what I can.
PS. The street price of the RP hand held is $230. The loco module is $75. If you use your own battery then that's all you need to get started. An NCE DCC system is right about $500 from the same store.
Jonathon: This thread is titled "battery power", and the original poster was asking about battery locomotive power . Ring does not offer battery loco power and they clearly state that they do not think it is a good idea with their system. This was precisely why I did not mention Ring as an option in this thread.
Nimh batteries have been known to explode. Lipo batteries have been known to catch fire. However, these warnings are no different than the endless warnings of side effects on medications. If you look up most battery problems like these online you'll start to see a disturbing trend. It is almost always down to the impatience of the user to get them charged as fast as possible. If a Lipo battery pack swells, it should be discarded of. People will ignore these signs too and continue to use them.
Lipos are nothing to be afraid of.
This is a general response to the battery thread, not to this particular post or member...
I’ve been a model railroader since 1940s (I’m in my 70s) and have seen this over and over. A good idea gets all messed up by quibbling over which “version” is better, more dangerous or whatever. I have been using battery power for my O scale layout for nigh on 10 years. Sometimes I think it’s great, other times it sucks. Just like many things in our hobby... it’s an evolving technology. There is no perfect system, there is no really great battery system. Yet. That’s the point. If we as a hobby let manufacturers know how interested we are in the idea... the concept ...we can hope that one of them will design and offer a complete, integrated system... where one loco would have it all, and that the battery/control/charging system is designed for our particular hobby. Many of the systems I have tried are adapted from systems designed for other hobby pursuits such as model flying, etc.
But to be honest, I do not expect this to actually happen because we already have far too many different flavors of O. If MTH comes out with it, we 2-railers will be disappointed. If Atlas does, then will it work with 2 and 3 rail? And on and on... you know what I mean. Variety and competition is good... it makes capitalism work... it’s good like with soft drinks or cars or clothes...things which EVERYbody in the world needs... ten thousand kinds out there and you can have whichever you want... but sometimes, like with model trains, too much competition can be a bad thing because we are not thaaaaat big a market, and whatever market there is, is divided between scales, gauges, number of rails, time periods and on and on. So few manufacturers will take a chance on investing a large amount of bucks in an item with a very limited market.
But... hope springs eternal, I will continue with my dead-rail layout and keep hoping some capable model railroad manufacturer will see the possibilities and design a great integrated O scale system : )
~Andy
Originally Posted by fredswain:
Nimh batteries have been known to explode. Lipo batteries have been known to catch fire. However, these warnings are no different than the endless warnings of side effects on medications. If you look up most battery problems like these online you'll start to see a disturbing trend. It is almost always down to the impatience of the user to get them charged as fast as possible. If a Lipo battery pack swells, it should be discarded of. People will ignore these signs too and continue to use them.
Lipos are nothing to be afraid of.
