Battery power

Yeah - it is time for this technology to be available.  I am tired of cleaning track.

There have been several battery-based systems out there. One that intrigued me was the one CVP/Airwire did which will fit in larger O scale locomotives. The thought that occurred to me was using battery power for an outdoor layout with charging sidings in the garage. The locomotives could be parked on the sidings to charge the batteries rather than removing the batteries from dummy units.

Matt, exactly my thoughts about the power up siding. I also thought about using an 18 volt power pack stripped down from a power drill system. Brake it out of the slide in case and mount it to the engine frame.

Phil

Hello Harmon

I have seen a lot of battery powered garden layouts, but not yet in 3 rail. I think it time is coming. I think I saw a battery powered children's layout at a train show.

Thanks for sharing your views on this topic & the posting.

Airwire, S-CAB, Aristo-Craft (before they went under), even the late Joe G. from OST ran articles on battery power.  Ed Reutling has videos on You-Tube of his RC/battery controlled engine.

Most of these entail using DCC as well, I wish there was a system already put together that gave us battery powered, RC receiver/transmitter control that could be had as cheaply as some of the RC cars/trucks you see in the big box stores.

A simple method to control the engine is what I want and NO power to the track, but most folks want lights and sound as well.

Tony Walsham in Australia has what looks like a pretty good system:

http://www.rcs-rc.com/

A few months ago I had Bob Buck of York, PA., install a battery powered radio control system in my first issue Weaver RS 3. Now since I don't have room for a permanent layout, I can throw down a figure 8 of Atlas 36 inch radius snaptrack and run the train. I also have sound on board. Works great!

RailLinx Throttle

Dan

Thanks for the replies.  The more I learn about battery power, the better it is looking.  Doesn't appear to be much in the way of downside, either.  Almost too simple!

If you plan on using Lithium batteries I suggest you check with your homeowners insurance regarding charging of  hobby batteries in the home.  There has been some buzz in the R/C car and airplane industry regarding emerging problems.

Nickel metal hydride batteries are much safer than lithium ion batteries, should be no problem.

From what I've read the LiPo batteries MAY cause issues when they are fast charged, a trickle charge seemingly is alright.

I think any of the batteries from Nicads on up would be fine for our needs, how much run time do we need anyway, 1-2 hours should be tops I would think, unless you're doing a show.

I've had a lot of experience with lithium batteries. We use them in model aircraft and rc race cars. The power densities are amazing. You will need a charger specifically designed for lithiums and probably a separate power supply.

You need to go to a major rc  model airplane or rc car hobby shop in your area and let them advise you. You can obtain very small batteries that will run your locos. If you are nervous about charging lipos in the house you can purchase fireproof bags to contain them while charging.

I've only experienced explosions and fires in severe high speed crashes with batteries that would crank your car. The explosions are kinda cool, albeit expensive.

There's  Deltang with a 3 amp receiver $40  Throttle  is about $35 in kit form, contolles twelve loco's.http://www.deltang.co.uk        Stephen   (cTr...Choose the Right)

Thanks for the research, I will look them up on their website.  For that amount of money there are some serious limitations with their system?  Doesn't sound like enough money, must be a catch??

Harmon

Agreed.

I have been flying LiPo (Lithium Polymer) powered RC aircraft for years. You must respect the amount of energy that these batteries contain. Proper "balance" charging with an approved charger is a must. NEVER leave a LiPo battery to charge unattended. People have lost houses, cars, and lives that way. LiPo fires burn at thousands of degrees and tend to explode throwing bits of super hot flaming battery everywhere (think Napalm).

I think that people are used to handling small batteries for their remotes and electronics and don't understand fully what they are dealing with. If you think about it these batteries could be considered more dangerous than liquid fuel like gasoline. Why? Because the battery contains the fuel AND the potential ignition source all in one. All it takes is a short circuit, manufacturing defect, or mishandling/overcharging and you have a real problem. Once the chain reaction starts they will go into thermal runaway and you really can't stop them.

The sole reason we put up with these risks in RC is that they offer the highest power density to weight ratio. That's important in aircraft. Not so much in trains. I recommend that people use NiCad, NiMH, or LifePo4 batteries in trains. LifePo4 offer nearly the energy density of LiPos but they do not explode or catch fire. I personally don't think it is worth the risk when there are safer options.

Battery power is an up and coming technology in model railroading. The NMRA is currently working on standards for on-board power. Just make sure you are informed and be safe!

What type of batteries are used in cordless drills, etc.?  Can they blowup on a charger if unattended?

Nickel-cadmium on my Makitas.  They do not seem to care how I charge them, and they last an incredibly long time when drilling holes in steel.  Only 9 Volts or so, but they would easily fit in a large tender.  

A little research (two minutes?) indicates that Nickel-cad batteries are now totally obsolete, and have been replaced by Nickel-Metal-Hydroxide.  These are said to approach LiPo batteries, but without the side effects.  Not sure of all that, but the things are ubiquitous and inexpensive.  For instance,

http://www.amazon.com/s?rh=n%3...owse-bin%3A389572011

Google both types.  Wikipedia has nice writeups.  Batteries are apparently no longer an obstacle - what we need is radio-controlled DCC or its equivalent.  Start with the $40 kit?  I think if I could put a Tsunami sound and a speed controller in my AC-8 for under a hundred bucks I would do it tomorrow - right after I fix a pesky tail wheel.

Another two minutes (this is dangerous) produced this very interesting writeup:

http://www.servocity.com/html/...es.html#.U9fjvHy9KSM

Somebody else has already figured all this out.

Why not buy, say, an RC car, and tear its guts out? How about this?

http://www.radioshack.com/prod...29142366#tabsetBasic

Seems like you could eBay the leftovers no sweat.

Google the Dead Rail Society.  I believe it is a Yahoo site.

Wes

I am looking at the Stanton Cab (S-Cab) system. It utilizes regular DCC decoders (modified by them) that are fed radio signal by their unit and this then plugs into a regular DCC socket on the loco. The battery setup that they have is about the best I have seen, The basic battery charging unit allows you to run on battery and it automatically senses where there is power in the track and uses it and/or charges the battery. It also works regardless of rail polarity, even being able to suck juice from DCC A/C rail. You also have the option of charging through the tracks or of putting a plug on the locos, or both. What this means is that you can have power in the easy to supply portions of a layout ,or even just have a charging yard where you park trains to charge. This means you can forget about dead spots in turnouts, reverse loop wiring , etc.  The Del Tang stuff is neat, smaller in some cases, and overall cheaper, but you are looking at some fairly intensive electronics projects whereas the S-Cab system is pretty much plug and play unless you are adding it to a regular DC loco, in which case it requires hooking up wires from the power leads on your trucks or to a battery jack, etc.

Click here to go to the Stanton S-Cab product and price list.

Above is a regular DCC decoder with their radio unit added.

Even if you want to scratch build a radio control system or use the Del Tang system, you might want to look at the S-Cab battery control unit. It solves the low battery voltage per battery unit compared to what is required to run locomotives issue and also deals with all of the possible track power configurations to grab charging juice for you. Very slick and not too pricey @ $50 including a battery.

I watched the video from deltang.co.uk and was impressed how simple it looks.  I need to talk to Dan, the railroad guy.  I am "electronically challenged"and Dan understands all that stuff so I don't have to.

Harmon 

The S-Cab BPS will not handle the current demands of most O scale engines unless you repower. I believe it tops out at .5A. I used one in an Atlas O F unit after wiring the motors in series.

It says that on their website.

At O Scale West a while back the gent who has Rio Grande Southern Railroad Hobbies in Ridgeway CO had a medium sized steam engine with  battery power.  Batteries in the tender.  I think I remember him telling me that it would run an hour between charges.  I don't recall which wireless system or which batteries.

My point is that it all fit nicely in a medium sized O scale steam engine with a medium sized square tender and this was a while back -- and the technology is getting better.

Google him and check it out.

I was very interested in using the s-cab, but was put of by the fact it operates on 900GHZ. This is a problem for two reasons, I wonted to use it in conjunction with MTH's DCS also 900GHZ and I wonder If I might  experience some conflict in the two systems, and I live in Australia where 900GHZ is restricted for mobil phone use. This is true in Britain I believe to, and possibly Europe. The systems are of course short range, but the fines can be hefty, there's no such restriction in the USA I believe. Where in 900GHZ rang they operate Im not certain, that would make a difference. The other thing is are Air Wire, Tam Valley, G-wire and S-cab receivers inter compatible.       Stephen     (cTr...Choose the Right)

Ref my earlier post, you can see Gregg of Rio Grande Southern Railroad Hobbies running his Airwire equipped steam engine in Erik Lindgren's topic on the Colorado O Scale Club at the Forney museum in Denver.  And a link to his website.

So for about $3-400 you can get a complete setup for one locomotive, not including a $100 battery charger.

Or you can, for $35 and shipping, get an RC car with transmitter and receiver.  Maybe even batteries, although the MiMH batteries appear to be inexpensive, with $5 chargers.

What am I missing here? Ugly antennae, or no speed control?  Or the desire to have DCC, smoke, and sound on the very first attempt?

Interesting thread timing....

Last April at York wife and I bought a complete package from RCS America (Orange hall), at which Bob Buck and the RCS team showed impressive battery-powered demos in Large Scale and O scale.  Our package is going into an LGB Mogul for our as-yet-not-completed garden railway.  In fact, I just finished the engine/tender installation.  The 14.8 Li-Po battery pack, RailLinx 900 throttle/receiver boards, the Phoenix P8 sound board, speaker, and spaghetti bowl of wiring all fit neatly within the mogul's tender.  The transmitter is being updated by the RCS folks in Iowa as we speak.  They've all been most helpful through the whole installation process.

I TOTALLY agree with the supportive comments above re use of Li-Po batteries in R/C hobby products.  R/C anything is HUGE at the hobby shop where I work.  As you might imagine, drones are the latest mega-jump in activity in this arena.  Li-Po's bad shake in the hobby is, as mentioned, usually an incompatibility of charger and battery types/settings.  Some intelligence required.  Duh.

Well, I fully believe that with continuing battery development, this concept of on-board rechargeable power for model railroading will DEFINITELY take root.  It is, IMHO, the ONLY way to go at this time for Large Scale.  In fact, all elements considered, it should be a no-brainer priority for G and #1 scales.  And, yes, it is wholly DCC compatible, too, so the whole gamut of DCC excitement is available.

R/C of couplers and track switches under battery power?.....demonstrated by the RCS folks at York. 

So, re O scale?  Well, as I said, the battery pack size, power, durability technology growth is very dynamic at this time.  I'm betting that it will be a strong contender in this scale very soon....and the big guys in orange/blue, purple/yellow, blue, etc., will be forced to think about the possibilities in their own product offerings.  Yeah, an installation can be a bit pricey at this point, but like everything in this sort of tech arena, demand and innovation will drive the cost/price down. 

For our shop?....I'm hoping that it will put the Trains biz into the R/C/Battery mix and be one more reason how the LHS can serve the hobbyist better than the internet for the average Joe.

BTW...Rick Isard (RCS America) said they will be at York again in October (Orange Hall).  Stop by and be amazed!!

KD

There are some problems with using the R/C equipment from a cheapo R/C car. First is that they are usually not anywhere near the 12 volts minimum you need to run locos full power. The second thing is that they are not the most robust controllers and might not be able to handle it, and third , cheap R/C stuff is generally cheap and the batteries are crap. That being said there are lots of guys who have made this work, just look on the various forums and you will see this. I have considered this myself and looked into it, and the units that seem to meet the demands of running locos cost more like $100 minimum, the $35 units  do not cut the mustard, so that is not much of a bargain for a lot of screwing around to end up with a second rate system cobbled together, rather than a system with full blown DCC capability. The Stanton System costs about $250 for the first loco and then ~$120 per loco after that, including the fancy battery setup they have. Another factor to consider is what about when you go to sell? If you are using Stanton you just unplug the R/C decoder and plug in a regular DCC one and it is ready for sale. If you go Frankensteining some R?C from a car or something into a loco it is pretty much married to it at that point.

I'm waiting to see brushless motors work their way into model railroading. The efficiency and torque gain of these things over brushed motors is huge. You'll increase runtime and hence decrease battery size very easily when this happens.

Brushless motors do not operate nearly as smoothly at low RPMs as DC motors. I have dozens in my planes and even with good high frequency ESCs they are rough at the lower speeds that we need. Now maybe with a gearbox? But I would think there would be a lot of noise at that point.

Actually they are extremely smooth. Far smoother than brushed motors. You are probably using non-sensored motors. They are unsmooth at lower rpms. Sensored motors however are flawless.

Agree with this.

I am also waiting for synchronous or asynchronous motors to make their way into model trains. I brought this topic up in several other threads only to be shot down. Main complaint was that more efficient motor technology was "too complicated." In the RC world there has been great strides made in motor technology. The RS380PH motors now commonly used in our trains are ~60% efficient where as the brushless "DC motors" (which are actually synchronous AC motors) by OS Motor, Electrifly, Tiger and others are 80-85% efficient.

Asynchronous motors (induction motors) are so simple that a single phase motor runs straight off of AC and can be in excess of 90% efficient without the use of expensive materials. No need for neodymium in induction motors.

And keep in mind that Marklin has the C-sine motor which is similar to synchronous motors.

I fail to see why we must hold onto old technologies as if they are carved into stone.

If battery operation is ever to become reality we will need new drive technologies as 60% efficient brushed motors simply can't cut it.

Id be interested in playing with brushless motors, my son asked me about it a little time ago, and I thought why not!!       Stephen   (cTr.... Choose the Right)

I am considering upgrading some older scale 3 rail steam to Wireless DCC/Battery power to run on the rails at the same time as Legacy engines

Ever since I heard the latest sound files from QSI and TCS that have specific whistles I just can't seem to get them out of my head. The PRR 3 chime and Banshee whistles are simply the best I have ever heard. It sounds like a real Pennsy steamer in the mountains

That is a huge benefit of using DCC IMHO... You can actually chose from a large variety of sound files. My TCS WowSound decoders come with over 40 different prototype whistles built-in. Try getting Lionel to give you a different Legacy RailSounds whistle.

TCS WowSound decoders

What amperage can they carry? Enough for a big O-scale loco?

No. Not yet. 1.2A. QSI Titan decoders can do 2A or the Magnum can do at least 4A.

Not to derail this thread, but if you like prototypical sound take a listen to the new QSI PRR 3chime. This is just a small cube speaker.

Johnny - that QSI Titan 3 chime in your post is the richest PRR passenger whistle sound I've ever heard From a decoder-  thanks for posting it

Ed Rappe