Best way of hooking up two different types of transformers - UPDATE - NOW WORKING!

There is no problem having both commons connected.  BUT you have to be sure they are in phase.  These older transformers do not have a phased plug so you have to check.  If you have a VOM plug in both transformers and touch a lead to the common terminals on each transformer; if the meter moves they are out of phase. Unplug one and turn the plug over.  The meter should not move.  Mark the plugs so you know which way to plug them in for the future.  Without a meter you can do the same thing with a bulb.

Is there a reason you wouldn't just use a double pole double throw center off toggle switch?

That would allow either transformer (or neither one if in the center off position) to feed the track.  Just flip the switch to one position for ZW, the other for Z, or center for Off.

-Dave

Dave45681 posted:

Is there a reason you wouldn't just use a double pole double throw center off toggle switch?

That would allow either transformer (or neither one if in the center off position) to feed the track.  Just flip the switch to one position for ZW, the other for Z, or center for Off.

-Dave

Dave, when I entered selector switch that is what came up for the search on Ebay. I will try to add double pole double throw toggle switch and see what I get. That would be the safest approach and not having to be concerned with phase.

Dan and Dave thank you both for the information. Very much appreciated.

N5CJonny posted:

... I had a Lionel Z and it seemed to run my Postwar 675 with lighted passenger cars great as well smoke like crazy and able to blow the air whistle really well plus I had many lights from eight switches which also competed for power and yet it had power to spare. It seems the ZW runs the same 675 engine just ok with smoke and blow the air whistle, but not like the Z transformer did in the past....

How do you blow the whistle with the Z?

If they are on the same layout, phase them. The result of not phasing could be 50v max instead of 25v.  If they are going to share a common especially. Regardless of any switch you add, there are still other tap combos to consider.

There is a youtube video by lionel "phasing two transformers to be used together and why".  It may help you to understand.... but if you don't, at least heed the advice for your families safety, if not your own or your trains.  It seems pretty ignorant to throw caution to the wind against electrical advice if you don't know what's going on to begin with. 

It isn't even hard! My Gramps would help me over the phone until about second grade.... then I "forgot" (to)how for a few decades... and learned it again.

The 25v Z has 5v more than a 20v ZW because a Z has no whistle circuit.  A 166 whistle control eats 5v, letting the 5v back in as a voltage boost when the whistle is pressed; similar to what an internal whistle does, except there the 5v is additional transformer windings being added or removed rather than "using it up" until needed.

ADCX Rob posted:

N5CJonny posted:

... I had a Lionel Z and it seemed to run my Postwar 675 with lighted passenger cars great as well smoke like crazy and able to blow the air whistle really well plus I had many lights from eight switches which also competed for power and yet it had power to spare. It seems the ZW runs the same 675 engine just ok with smoke and blow the air whistle, but not like the Z transformer did in the past....

How do you blow the whistle with the Z?

Rob, I do have a Lionel 167s whistle/direction controller which I was using as a bell button for the ZW. However only one MTH engine needed The bell button, so now if I want I can use it for the Z transformer.

Many thanks Adriatic for the info. I will have to lookup that video.

As of now I am going to go with trying to hook up most of my many postwar accessories to the Z and using the ZW for mostly the trains and see how that works out. Down the road I may decide to have the choice of using the Z or ZW as I have asked about. The nostalgia part of me would still love to be able to run that 675 with the Z transformer at times. 

Thanks so much guys for all your help and suggestions.

Stay safe!

N5CJonny posted:

Many thanks Adriatic for the info. I will have to lookup that video.

As of now I am going to go with trying to hook up most of my many postwar accessories to the Z and using the ZW for mostly the trains and see how that works out. Down the road I may decide to have the choice of using the Z or ZW as I have asked about. The nostalgia part of me would still love to be able to run that 675 with the Z transformer at times. 

Thanks so much guys for all your help and suggestions.

Stay safe!

With your plan being to still use both, I also agree with all of the recommendations to still phase them properly, in addition to whatever you end up using as a switch.

I possibly misread where your original post changed the train of thought from what you were originally going to do to toggling between the transformers (I envisioned only using the second transformer as an alternate train control, not necessarily having it simultaneously feed other things on the layout with the other outputs).

-Dave

Dave, before I received my Lionel Z transformer I had my ZW transformer which ran my postwar trains on one loop of track plus a bunch of accessories, a MTH Z-1000 to run mostly modern trains on a separate loop and a Lionel 1033 to run more accessories (no trains though). The 1033 was always set to maximum power and barely was able to do the job. I decided to replace the 1033 with the Z which I just received this week. My original plan was to move all accessories from the 1033 to the Z and eventually take some of the other accessories I have on my ZW and move them to the Z as well. I guess remembering the performance of the Z I had as a kid and nostalgia got me to thinking that maybe I should also consider having a choice between using my ZW or Z as I wanted at a particular time. Perhaps if I decided to use either transformer for postwar trains I should balance my accessory loads between the two transformers. Right now I am in the take things slow and try out different setups to see what would be good for me. I love having flexibility so the idea of being able to use either the ZW or Z appeals to me.

N5CJonny posted:

... thinking that maybe I should also consider having a choice between using my ZW or Z as I wanted at a particular time...

A simple SPDT switch, center off optional, will do the job... just has been done in conventional layout cab control for decades.

So today I am attempting to test whether the Z and ZW transformers are in phase with each other. I turned on both transformers and I raised the voltage dials on the A post of both transformers. Then I took my voltmeter and set to a/c 50 volt range and put one lead on the U (A side) post of one transformer and the other lead on the other transformer on the U (A side) post of the other transformer and the needle did not move. Did I do this correctly to test the phasing?

N5CJonny posted:

... the needle did not move. Did I do this correctly to test the phasing?

Well, normally this would be the definition of being in phase, but the chances that you have both the Z & ZW set exactly the same are pretty slim.

Moving the handles apart from each other while watching for the needle to move would be a better indication, as both of those transformers, the Z especially(older), are prone to having faulty "U" posts(easily repairable).

• Rob, I‘ll try what you said with the power handles/dials. Supposedly the Z was completely rebuilt and tested, including replacing or repairing terminals where needed.
  
  

Also besides trying to phase these transformers the same I plan on using a Lionel 390c switch which from what I have read is a DPDT switch that should keep the two transformers power to the track separated for added protection.

Thank you Rob for all your help and to everyone that contributed to this post.

N5CJonny posted:

...I plan on using a Lionel 390c switch which from what I have read is a DPDT switch that should keep the two transformers power to the track separated for added protection.

Don't use the 390c, it's not intended for the output of a Z or ZW. Use a commercial part rated for 10 amps or more.

However, it is in your best interest to phase the transformers and connect the commons, & just use a SPDT to select the transformer(example - Z "A" or ZW "A"). When the commons are referenced to each other with a connection, it will prevent floating ground gremlins from popping up unexpectedly.

As far as instructional videos go, Mike is very easy to listen to imo.   If he was teacher, I bet not too many would sleep through that class 😁

I'd search for you, but YT won't even let me sign lately.

Rob, very good to know about the 390C, so I'll scratch that idea out. I already had on order a SPDT ON/OFF/ON switch which is rated at 10 amps, so it looks like that one will be ok.

Earlier today after reading your suggestion on rotating the control knobs on each transformer,  I tried that with the volt meter connected and the needle on the volt meter did not move.  I am hoping things are good on phasing. Is there anything else I should be doing to test things out?

Adriatic posted:

As far as instructional videos go, Mike is very easy to listen to imo.   If he was teacher, I bet not too many would sleep through that class 😁

I'd search for you, but YT won't even let me sign lately.

I have been meaning to check that video out. I'll try to watch it tonight. Thanks.

N5CJonny posted:

Earlier today after reading your suggestion on rotating the control knobs on each transformer,  I tried that with the volt meter connected and the needle on the volt meter did not move.

There HAS to be some voltage potential there if you are connected right.

ZW "U" to Z "U" with a wire, both plugged in to the same outlet or power strip.

IF the voltage markings on Lionel transformers were accurate(and they're not), and you set one "A" to 10 volts and the other "A" to 16, you would theoretically see 6 volts showing on the meter from one "A" to the other if they are in phase. With both set to 14, zero volts.

With both set to 14 out of phase, theoretically this would show 28 volts.

In actual practice, with both set to 14 in phase, there is always a volt or a few showing as the transformers are different.

You can disregard the dial readings and set the voltage of each transformer using the meter to, for example, 14 volts before checking for the difference between the "A" posts.

I finished watching the video by Mike on phasing transformers and connected the wires as he demonstrated to test for phasing. A great video and very easy to understand by the way. What happened when I connected all the wires was a large spark, so I instantly pulled the wire away and looked at the outlet plugs of each transformer. To my surprise the Z transformer has the new style plug, so I could not change the plug direction there, but the ZW has the old style plug, so I was able to rotate that plug 180 degrees. Now when I touched the same terminal with the wire, I had a very small spark. I now feel positive that the two transformers are in phase. The only thing I have to do now is mark the plug and outlet so I always know how it should be plugged in.

Thanks Adriatic, that video did the trick!

Again guys thanks so much for all your help! 

So I hooked up everything and did the phasing of transformers per the video on phasing transformers and everything worked fine so I thought. However I decided to test things more today and discovered things are not totally working the way I thought they should. When I put the selector switch to run the ZW to control the engine it worked fine and while the engine was moving I turned the selector switch from ZW to the Z transformer and the train stopped as it should. However when I did the opposite and ran the train with the Z transformer and changed the selector switch to ZW the train did not stop. Why? Luckily I always turn each transformers dial to stop when I am done using it. So it seems like the Z always is feeding power to the track regardless of the selector switch setting. This is strange, but makes me think things are not in phase or is the switch defective? The U terminal of both transformers is going directly to the outside rail and the D posts of both transformers goes to the selector switch and from the switch to the center rail.

Let's see a picture of your selector switch and your wiring diagram.

Thanks for your reply and help Rob. I have worked out a simple diagram and have taken photos of the Ebay switch diagram. I hope you can understand my drawing.

Well I solved my own problem and I am embarrassed at the cause. It seems that a wire underneath the Fastrack that I use for a temporary accessory that has a bare terminal end that is normally covered was loose and somehow making some kind of cross contact underneath the track. Anyhow when I insulated the loose wire everything seems to work as it should regarding the selector switch. I guess you are never too old to feel stupid.

Glad you got 'em up & running!

@N5CJonny posted:

 I hope you can understand my drawing.

That would have been a lot easier if you had put a simple SPDT switch here:

Common to center rail, Left to Z "D", Right to ZW "D".

I'd put the 167 between Z & switch.  I hated those 167s.  Blow an old Lionel motorized whistle and loco slowed way down.

I really can't comprehend your switch wiring, but Rob's easier version is the way to do it.

Hard to figure why the ZW can't give the performance.   What gauge wire are you using? 

The performance of both transformers is now closer to each other since I shared the load of accessories better between the two transformers.

As for the 167 controller, the seller claimed that it was rebuilt using diodes and this 167 does not seem to change the engine speed like they normally do when you activate the whistle.

Regarding my wire gauge to power the track, I have used 18 gauge.

I now tend to use the Z to run the trains more as I personally prefer the push button of the 167 to activate the whistle over the ZW way of activation. Also since I had the Z transformer as a kid nostalgia plays into my preference as well. (go figure)

That's the issue.  18 gauge is too small to carry a heavy load of a PW loco and many lighted cars.  You are losing power, and thus need the extra voltage the Z can provide to overcome that loss..  On my layout, I use nothing smaller than 14 gauge to feed tracks (both hot & ground).  You should at least go to 16.

My 167s, which I got in 1941 and were retired when my parents bought me a ZW sometime in the 50's, were never modified.

Good point on the wire gauge RJR. I have just purchased some 14 gauge copper stranded wire and will re-do all the wiring on both transformers along with having the switch after the 167. Also I forgot to mention in my wiring diagram that I have Lionel 91 circuit breakers for each of the transformers and they are connected first right from each transformer on the D terminal side.

You could still be light on gauge.  It depends on distance and how many amps you want to send that distance.  Further needs a fatter wire than a short run would to deliver X amps.

  E.g. run 10-12g bus for twenty ft along track. and then add 14g drops to track (short pigtails) off that bus.

Add fuses to protect light wire from a big transformer.  Huge wire is harder to cook; period. "Drawbacks" to too large a wire aren't really applicable to us, except maybe the copper costs

Good Morning Adriatic, I did not think anyone would be adding to my thread at this late date, but I’m very glad you did. My main hookup point is only 2-1/2 feet away from my transformer and I have another hookup connection on the other side of the room which is 10 feet away.The second connection across the room was connected a long time ago, so I don’t remember the gauge wire I used (perhaps also 18 gauge). I know a lot of people say you need many more power connection points than two. The problem is that I have a carpet central and that hiding wires becomes tricky at times.

I have a quick question regarding power feeds to different parts of the track. Instead of the bus line, what about having jumper wire connections between track sections for better continuity along the track? By doing that I will not have problems putting heavy wire along large lengths of track and also I won’t have to use as much wire.

@N5CJonny posted:

what about having jumper wire connections between track sections for better continuity along the track?

Fine, as long as you are aware that the track pins are already doing that, and your proposal would be a similar parallel system, with some loss at every joint/junction/jumper. It will lower the resistance, just not as effectively, and is a lot of work.