Union Pacific studying Big Boy restoration project

Published: December 7, 2012

No. 4014 climbing Wyoming's Sherman Hill on June 25, 1949.

Photo by R.H. Kindig

POMONA, Calif. – Union Pacific may be bringing back the ultimate steam machine, an Alco-built 4-8-8-4 Big Boy, the last of which steamed more than 50 years ago.

Company spokesman Mark Davis told Trains News Wire Friday that the company has been approached by and is working with a third party interested in restoring and operating a Big Boy. He said the railroad is evaluating the condition of preserved UP Big Boy locomotives and that it believes two might be available for restoration. Davis declined to name the other party or give a timeline for the project. But at least one organization is already talking about its potential to put a Big Boy back on the main line.

The treasurer of the Southern California railroad club that owns a displayed Union Pacific Big Boy 4-8-8-4 says his group hopes to learn more Saturday about a UP offer to acquire No. 4014 for restoration and operation.

In an exclusive interview with Trains News Wire, John Mastrobuoni from Prescott, Ariz., said the Southern California Chapter of the Railway & Locomotive Historical Society is eager to find out if the railroad can meet its requirement that a replacement piece take the place of the Big Boy at the Los Angeles County Fairgrounds in Pomona. The engine is one of eight survivors of the 25 locomotives that Alco built beginning in 1941 for freight service between Cheyenne, Wyo., and Ogden, Utah until the last steamed in 1959.

Mastrobuoni said he participated by phone in a meeting Tuesday in which Ed Dickens, who manages UP’s fleet of historic operating steam and diesel equipment, appeared at a chapter meeting in California to pitch the idea. He said Dickens on Saturday is expected to provide more details about what UP would offer and called discussions “preliminary.”

The idea is already controversial, as some board and chapter members consider the Big Boy as the centerpiece of the club’s exhibit. The 4014 was donated to the chapter in 1962. The exhibit also includes a UP DD40X Centennial diesel No. 6915, UP 4-12-2 No. 9000, Southern Pacific 4-10-2 No. 5021, and Santa Fe 4-6-4 No. 3450.

“If we can come to an agreement with the railroad, an operating Big Boy is better than one on display,” Mastrobuoni said. “We’d lose the engine for display, but we’d be known everywhere as the group that helped make one run again.”

He added that rebuilding the No. 4014 would take several years with the aim of operating for the 150^th celebration of the completion of the first transcontinental railroad in 2019. The coal-burning engine would be converted to oil firing.

The railroad has not publicly announced plans to expand its operating steam locomotive fleet, which includes the never retired 4-8-4 No. 844, which made an extensive systemwide tour this year for the company’s 150^th anniversary of its founding, and 4-6-6-4 No. 3985, which is undergoing a major overhaul.

Contrary to Internet reports that UP has vetted the other seven Big Boys, representatives of the National Railroad Museum in Green Bay, Wis., the Forney Museum of Transportation in Denver, and the Steamtown National Park Service site in Scranton, Pa., said Friday that none have been officially contacted. On its face, the engine in southern California, with its dry climate, would be among the best condition.

In addition to 4014, the following UP Big Boys are still in existence:
4004, in Holliday Park, Cheyenne, Wyo.; 4005, Forney Transportation Museum, Denver, Colo.; 4006, Museum of Transport, St. Louis,Mo.; 4012, Steamtown, Scranton, Pa.; 4017, National Railroad Museum, Green Bay, Wis.; 4018, Museum of the American Railroad, Dallas, Texas; 4023, Kenefick Park, Omaha, Neb.

Living in Ogden never did figure out why we didn't get a Big Boy here. I guess it probably has to do with back in those days it was seen as old tech etc, not the wave of the future.

For a 150th aniv. of the trnscon, would a UP 119 and CP JUPITER make more sense?

Ohhh...I am MAXED OUT on popcorn. Switching to chips and dip. Or maybe peanuts?

Where's the Prilosec?

Just build another Leviathan.  One is completed and operating, a 2nd is close to completion, so a 3rd wouldn't be too much more work.  Then, make any cosmetic modifications as needed.  Simple--just pricey.

Kevin

Don't worry I just had a truck full of movie theater popcorn delievered The day this happenes is the day 1218 will be rebuilt.

Never say "never", guys...! 

Well personally based on a few of the posts I buy it that talks are under way, will it happen?....I'll wait for an official announcement from UP before I go all in.

I'd love to see it happen, but as of today, there's no mention of it on the offical UP website, www.uprr.com.

Rich,

With all that snack food, you better start "jazzersizing".

Larry

BINGO! It is the way this project has been announced is that bothers me.

This started as a rumor on a railfan web site, then was substantiated (sort of) by posts from the club involved, only to be followed by further supposedly accurate information from other sources and a very histrionic Facebook page that was anything but "official." But there was never anything "official" from Union Pacific. I would have expected the organization involved to keep a lid on it until Union Pacific was ready to officially announce this first. After all it will be THEIR show.

When Norfolk Southern approached us last year about running the 765 for their 21st Century Steam Program, we knew that was going to happen way back in January 2012.  But the Fort Wayne RR Historical Society never said a word in any public venue about it until NORFOLK SOUTHERN made the official announcement some time in April, as I recall. It was NORFOLK SOUTHERN'S show, and as a simple professional courtesy we did not say anything about it until NS had the opportunity to announce it in an official way on their own web site. Then we followed up with our own publicity about it.

Union Pacific should have exercised more control over the release of this news instead of allowing it to become public in the manner that it has. The museum in California behaved unprofessionally in allowing these rumors to get out. I can understand their excitement and enthusiasm about this, but when you work at this level you have to behave professionally, not like a bunch of foamers who just can't wait to tell EVERYBODY about this, even though it is a long way from being a done deal.

The way this news was released has me somewhat skeptical about the whole thing.

This "Big Boy restoration" story reminds me of the ACE3000 project.

"The ACE 3000 was one of the most publicised attempts at modern steam, but the project ultimately failed due to lack of funds."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A...ced_steam_technology

Exactly.  Even if the whole thing is real (and it appears that it may be just that), things could fall apart very quickly over a multitude of reasons like someone getting greedy just to name one scenario.  Then, it's all going to go back to UP with the publicity, and they aren't going to come out too well in it even if it wasn't their fault.

I don't know anything about what is (or isn't) going on, but it wouldn't be the first time that too much enthusiasm has sabotaged a very good project before.  Everyone involved had to know the kind of reaction to expect when rumours get out that someone is thinking about rebuilding a 4000.  The deal in Texas ten years ago should have convinced anyone that had other ideas.

As the saying goes....loose lips sink ships.

It's a HUGE PR move if it happens, but it could fall apart as quick as it began.  Here's praying that I'm wrong.

Kevin

Don't take wikipedia as the end-all-be-all of information.  Anyone can edit those entries.

There was lots of big money behind the ACE 3000--GE, Foster Wheeler, and others.  High oil prices was what kickstarted the whole project.  When the oil prices started dropping, the cost ratio started switching back away from coal.  Economics had a lot to do with it in the end.  If memory serves, $50 milllion for the first engine to see if the technology actually worked, probably had some amount in the decision to back away also.

Kevin

I made a similar statement on page 1. Premature or inaccurate announcement could scare everyone away and kill the project.

Look what happened to K-Line when they made a inaccurate press release about the Lionel agreement, they were dead within a few days.

If there was a closed door meeting in CA it was bad form for anyone in that meeting to report it to the world unless they were seeking to sabotage the deal

It reminds me of all those quotes you see on Fox news from people "not authorized to discuss the subject with the media"  Well if you are not authorized then STFU

Sure is exciting though.Almost as exciting as seeing 765 this year in the Altoona yard.  I was lucky enough to be in a man lift repairing a bridge when they came through.

My point was that a locomotive project which got a lot of attention ultimately did not happen due to a variety of real-world obstacles. I could have said that without using a quote from Wikipedia but I like to give a link if anyone wants more info.

You are correct, Wikipedia is not perfect, and the ACE3000 project did have multiple factors involved to stymie it. Just as there are many ways that the BigBoy restoration idea can be derailed if it ever gets past the talking phase.

I don't care what anybody says, The Elby's "BIG BOY" is coming back to Wheeling!

I think you'll see #18 run again, before a 4000.  The cost would be much greater,

and would require both GE and UP involvement...at the least.  However #18 would have a variety of operational advantages over the big steamer, which would tip the scales in her favor. IMHO.  My gut is that you won't see any of this stuff happen anytime soon, or likely forever!

Think its about time to lock this post until some real info comes along?

The speculatron is about maxed out

In the end a rumor is only a rumor, but none-the-less I wish it was true!

I think all the nay sayers here sound just as foolish as the speculators.

What do we know?

The Union Pacific has expressed interest in doing this project.

I was hoping for more news after Saturday's meeting, but alas, nothing yet. I'm still hopeful, and would love to see it happen, but my world doesn't revolve around it.

This has gone beyond rumor. It is a fact that UP is considering doing this. They wouldn't have met Saturday if they weren't.

Meanwhile I have my own Big Boy.

Do you happen to have any spare one hundred dollar bills that you would like to wager that this project will NOT happen?

I'm willing to bet $1000 that a Big Boy restoration WILL happen some day. But not necessarily within our lifetimes. So who is going to collect on the bet?

Betting will probably be frowned on by the moderators.  Maybe it's time for this thread to disappear ! 

It all makes for interesting reading fodder, whether it’s true or not.  I’m not a huge TV watcher, but I would have never thought I would see so many commercials for railroads today.  CSX, NS, and UP (haven’t seen a BNSF one though).  IMHO, NS recently outdid UP’s heritage fleet effort with their version of legacy road names on their engines.   Perhaps UP is contemplating its next marketing advertising effort with something like this.  Only the insiders know at this time, however, we do live in interesting times.  Marijuana was just legalized in Colorado today.  Who would have thunk?  If UP is seriously considering this, then perhaps, NS might want to keep up with them next.  ie: a pufferbelly in Roanoke someday?

posted by webmaster of the Union Pacific3985/844 page;

Union Pacific 3985/844 Info

Page False - Disclaimer message (final message of it's kind) Is this page REAL; one of the questions raised the most lately. our response is simple and our viewpoints are debatable. We ( webmaster(s) ) feel as if the information presented if somehow -no matter how large- overlooked in the devoted movement to find out WHO posts it. We cannot appreciate that attitude simply because of how we ru...

n the page, we post the information an hour to one day AFTER UPRR and UP Steam releases it and after it's been confirmed by Edgar Dickens and Mark Davis (personally). We do this in an effort to make sure that the information/schedule/plan does not change and we do not misinform the public. We take pride in our confirmed information and where it comes from. And for the public to discourage these posts is highly disrespectful to the information and to the men who researched, confirmed, presented, built up, and worked upon it for hours at a time BEFORE being shown to you.

This page is ran anonymously by webmaster(s) who are a part of the AAR and employee of Union Pacific Railroad and UP Steam. It has been agreed upon by this group that names will under absolutely NO circumstance be released or given for privacy reasons. We reserve the right to release the names of the page owners and to simply call the page owner(s); "UP Steam Info/Union Pacific 3985/844 Info. We are thankful to those who respect this page policy but we prefer the specifics of names and company position status be avoided. Hence why we do not allow confusing comments regarding this matter to be posted. Thus we are a private/official initiative to raise publicity of the UP Steam Program and we ONLY release information directly from UP and UP Steam from the media contact of UP and the program manager of UP Steam.

If you feel as if this page is "false" or a "hoax" then we give you the invitation and advice to dis-like the page and move to another where you may feel information is more solidly sourced. We would like to add to our defense the simple and obvious fact that most seem to over look. Every major industry (this without a doubt includes the Union Pacific Railroad Co') pays specific employees to watch over the world wide web, in an effort to look for ANY sites that are unofficial or bad company representations...with ALL of the publicity this page has gotten and all of the notifications to Union Pacific we might ask the page fans a question if they doubt our authorization to post this information; Why has Union Pacific NOT sent a "Cease and Desist" letter to us - requesting this page stop (?). Or why has this page not been shut down months ago (?) If you cannot answer that question and yet still have doubts we suggest YOU as the doubting public cease and desist in use of this page and posting confusing comments "downing" or "discouraging" the legitimacy of the posts here. We appreciate those of you who add to the discussion and ask questions (as this page was intended) but we do NOT encourage, respect, or appreciate the persistent attitude of a confused or dazed movement as to WHO the posts are from. If the information is real and matchable to UPRR, why do "names" matter?


We wish the best regards to everyone who is steam fan (Whether they like this page or not) and we simply hope this uproar in doubting posts stop. This page was created with the assistance of UP to present information to EVERYONE in all corners of the globe. For those who couldn't see the engine on their excursions and for those of you who have questions but aren't getting responses or CAN'T ask people on the team for whatever reason. WE present information up to the date and we answer questions as best and as fast as possible. IF you have any doubts please inbox us and we will explain the information with links and authorized other posts from other official places.

Thank you for the support and those of you who follow and realistically view the page with an appreciation for the Information itself -

~ UP Steam Info ~

Yeah I read that.  It's an interesting read, but with regards to a 4000 I am still going to wait on an official announcement from the Union Pacific. 

There's a update on Trains.com but the website won't load.  When it does I'll post the info

I skip-read it.  I don't think I would trust anyone who protests that much.  Had he said "take it or leave it" I would be inclined to give it more credence.

Can't...stop...opening this thread....arrgh!

Chris, there is no need to LOCK this thread, if YOU are not finding any value in it, simply disable the "Follow this Topic" option, then you wont get any more updates on it, and anyone who is interested in the subject can still enjoy the thread.

Doug

Boy, I sure wouldn't say it is going to happen, but if Hot Water is willing to make that wager, I think that it could be a POSSIBILITY.

 Not taking any bets on this one, but I sure Hope that Hot Water WINS enough to restore the locomotive of his choice. BTW, I agree with you that it is a shame that there are no AC-9's left to restore, that would be higher on my list than a 4000.

Doug

SuperWarp1 and all,

Gary, I think this mioght have been what you read in Trains...

Begin quote-

Union Pacific studying Big Boy restoration project

POMONA, Calif. – Union Pacific may be bringing back the ultimate steam machine, an Alco-built 4-8-8-4 Big Boy, the last of which steamed more than 50 years ago.

Company spokesman Mark Davis told Trains News Wire Friday that the company has been approached by and is working with a third party interested in restoring and operating a Big Boy. He said the railroad is evaluating the condition of preserved UP Big Boy locomotives and that it believes two might be available for restoration. Davis declined to name the other party or give a timeline for the project. But at least one organization is already talking about its potential to put a Big Boy back on the main line.

The treasurer of the Southern California railroad club that owns a displayed Union Pacific Big Boy 4-8-8-4 says his group hopes to learn more Saturday about a UP offer to acquire No. 4014 for restoration and operation.

In an exclusive interview with Trains News Wire, John Mastrobuoni from Prescott, Ariz., said the Southern California Chapter of the Railway & Locomotive Historical Society is eager to find out if the railroad can meet its requirement that a replacement piece take the place of the Big Boy at the Los Angeles County Fairgrounds in Pomona. The engine is one of eight survivors of the 25 locomotives that Alco built beginning in 1941 for freight service between Cheyenne, Wyo., and Ogden, Utah until the last steamed in 1959.

Mastrobuoni said he participated by phone in a meeting Tuesday in which Ed Dickens, who manages UP’s fleet of historic operating steam and diesel equipment, appeared at a chapter meeting in California to pitch the idea. He said Dickens on Saturday is expected to provide more details about what UP would offer and called discussions “preliminary.”

The idea is already controversial, as some board and chapter members consider the Big Boy as the centerpiece of the club’s exhibit. The 4014 was donated to the chapter in 1962. The exhibit also includes a UP DD40X Centennial diesel No. 6915, UP 4-12-2 No. 9000, Southern Pacific 4-10-2 No. 5021, and Santa Fe 4-6-4 No. 3450.

“If we can come to an agreement with the railroad, an operating Big Boy is better than one on display,” Mastrobuoni said. “We’d lose the engine for display, but we’d be known everywhere as the group that helped make one run again.”

He added that rebuilding the No. 4014 would take several years with the aim of operating for the 150^th celebration of the completion of the first transcontinental railroad in 2019. The coal-burning engine would be converted to oil firing.

The railroad has not publicly announced plans to expand its operating steam locomotive fleet, which includes the never retired 4-8-4 No. 844, which made an extensive systemwide tour this year for the company’s 150^th anniversary of its founding, and 4-6-6-4 No. 3985, which is undergoing a major overhaul.

Contrary to Internet reports that UP has vetted the other seven Big Boys, representatives of the National Railroad Museum in Green Bay, Wis., the Forney Museum of Transportation in Denver, and the Steamtown National Park Service site in Scranton, Pa., said Friday that none have been officially contacted. On its face, the engine in southern California, with its dry climate, would be among the best condition.

In addition to 4014, the following UP Big Boys are still in existence:
4004, in Holliday Park, Cheyenne, Wyo.; 4005, Forney Transportation Museum, Denver, Colo.; 4006, Museum of Transport, St. Louis,Mo.; 4012, Steamtown, Scranton, Pa.; 4017, National Railroad Museum, Green Bay, Wis.; 4018, Museum of the American Railroad, Dallas, Texas; 4023, Kenefick Park, Omaha, Neb.

-End quote

Best regards,

Dave

Hi Dave thanks but that is the one that was posted much earlier, there is an updated article now on their site...wouldn't open for some reason.

Union Pacific, museum continue Big Boy talks

Published: December 10, 2012

No. 4014 at the museum in Pomona, Calif., in December 2012. Photo by David Lustig POMONA, Calif. – We will have to wait at least until later this week to learn more about what Union Pacific is offering a Southern California railroad club for its 4-8-8-4 Big Boy steam locomotive, which would become a full restoration project. But we do know that an equipment trade for the Big Boy displayed in California would not include UP steam fleet superstar 4-6-6-4 No. 3985, which is under rebuild at the company's steam shop in Cheyenne, Wyo. John Mastrobuoni, treasurer of the Southern California Chapter of the Railway & Locomotive Historical Society said discussions Saturday with UP did not yield an agreement on the chapter's 4-8-8-4 Big Boy No. 4014, which has been on display at the Los Angeles County Fairgrounds since 1962. UP said Friday that an unidentified third party is interesting in partnering with the company to restore the locomotive to operation. Mastrobuoni said UP still wants to acquire and move the locomotive in early 2013 and that the railroad plans to present a proposal by Dec. 14. Mastrobuoni said the chapter would be interested in trading for another UP steam locomotive, possibly 2-10-2 No. 5511, which is stored in Cheyenne, or a Southern Pacific SD40T-2 and a steel caboose. Another under discussion is revenue sharing from a first excursion with the Big Boy, which would be restored in time for the 150th anniversary of the completion of the first transcontinental railroad. That anniversary comes May 10, 2019. In the trade, the Big Boy would be owned and operated by Union Pacific, and the chapter would seek a first right of refusal to reacquire the engine should the project be cancelled or not move forward, Mastrobuoni said.