Skip to main content

I have a problem operating Atlas locomotives (circa 2010--C-Liner,s and GP 9's with TAS EOB cruise controls). 

The layout is wired with OGR 14 gauge wire according to Barry's rules in the second edition.  Everything is fine on about 75% of the layout but a couple entire blocks and several parts of blocks seem to be receiving no signal.  I am running DCS 6.10 and MTH engines are unaffected. All five engines load into the DCS but running with that remote achieves no different results from the Cab 1.

I am using Gargraves track and Ross Custom turnouts.  Four vintage ZW's (with 10 amp fast blow fuses) provide all the power for the tracks.  The signal loss occurs at normal locations (I have three levels, two are identical with four long stating sidings stacked exactly above each other.  The remaining mainline is double tracked but not on parallel routes)  The most severe problem is on the third level with two short sections of parallel tracks about 7 inches above four parallel tracks and 7 inches further above the remaining four parallel tracks.  Those two levels of sidings are wired with switched inputs (both hot and common) through relays so there is usually no power on tracks in those lower two levels. 

I have tried foil and "ground planes" with no apparent effect.  I am running an original cab1 and base that was checked with a scope and works flawlessly in all but those 25% areas.

I had no problems years ago with only two levels, but this year has been horrendous.  All the Atlas engines perform flawlessly on my O27 Lionel 3 foot test track.  My house wiring is properly grounded with a drop ceiling framework.  I did add long strings of LED's to light the lower level and hidden staging tracks and there seems to be a general but weak correlation between those areas and loss of signal--but turning the strings on and off does not effect the problem.

I have spent the last couple of weeks reading all I could find on this problem, but nothing has worked.   I even draped foil over the worst areas and connected it to the ground plane with no effect.  Since I will never run any additional TMCC engines I am about to bite the bullet and "upgrade" them all to PS3.  I am hoping someone out there may have a magic suggestions that will save me from raiding my miniscule 401K.  Thanks in advance.

Larry

Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

Just a couple things to add, based on some prior info from this forum and Lionel.

The TMCC base unit (or Legacy base unit) should not be plugged into a surge protected power strip. It should be plugged into something (power strip, extension cord) that does not have surge protection. The earth ground wire (the round pin of the power connector) has to make continuity from the base unit to your house wiring's earth ground.

If you add a wire or foil to try and improve TMCC/Legacy signal distribution, it must be connected to earth ground. If your house wiring is correct, shouldn't matter where you pick up earth ground for this purpose, but I suggest that you get the earth ground from the same wiring as where the base is plugged into.

BTW - the ground/common connector on the base unit is to get a ground reference with your transformers, and is not earth ground - thus cannot be used to try and improve TMCC/Legacy signal distribution.

I have a 55ft by 18ft train room, with house wiring circling the perimeter of the room, and, knock on wood, have not had any TMCC/Legacy signal distribution problems so far during my construction phase of my layout. As a precaution, I am running a 24gauge earth ground wire around my layout as part of a conductor harness for my DZ 2500 switch machines. Not connected yet, but will be there if I end up needing it.

Maybe check out gunrunnerjohn's TMCC buffer-booster addon device. It is based on an original Dale Manquen design that was intended to boost tmcc signal in weak areas. It aaparently boosts the carrier signal by about 3 times. It is covered in the Featured Topics sticky post area above.

Rod

I agree with Rod, on my S gauge layout I had a couple of problem areas where some of my Legacy engines would lose the signal, Johns signal booster cured those.

Ray

MED posted:
If you add a wire or foil to try and improve TMCC/Legacy signal distribution, it must be connected to earth ground. If your house wiring is correct, shouldn't matter where you pick up earth ground for this purpose, but I suggest that you get the earth ground from the same wiring as where the base is plugged into.

I will have to disagree with this statement, several people have demonstrated having multiple earth ground sources on large layouts have caused them problems.  In the extreme case, the NJ-HR did their own "earth ground" that isn't referenced to the power panel ground.

I strongly suggest you have one point of contact to the "earth ground" source, it should be close to the command base.

FYI - found an interesting write up that has a lot of information dealing with this topic.

Here is part of the write up.

Problems and Solutions

Now that we know how the TMCC Track signal is transmitted and received, we can look at some common problems and their solutions.

  1. We must establish a good connection between the Command Base and the AC wiring in the house.
    1. Our house wiring must have proper safety ground wiring with U-ground receptacles. Do not use a 3-pin to 2-pin adapter plug on the Base wallwart.
    2. We must use the Lionel wallwart so that we have the jumper between the Base ground and the house safety ground. Check for continuity between the outer barrel of the coaxial power connector and the U-ground pin on the wallwart.
    3. If you use an outlet strip, verify that the U-ground receptacles are connected to the U-ground pin on the plug.
    4. Do not connect the Base wallwart to a coiled up extension cord. The coiling of the cord can create an inductor that hinders the flow of the Track signal to the house wiring.
    5. Use only proper 3-wire extension cords with safety ground pins.
    6. I don’t think surge suppressors in an outlet strip should degrade the signal.  At worst, the suppressors will capacitively couple the safety ground TMCC signal to the hot and neutral, but the wiring capacitance throughout the house wiring also does that without ill effect.
  2. Eliminate any electrical noise sources.
    1. Use a portable AM radio to “sniff” for noise sources. Tune the radio to an unused frequency. Common problems are faulty fluorescent lamps, arcing capacitors in the AC line filter for most electronic devices, faulty aquarium thermostats, failing power supplies, arcing power supplies in TVs or computer monitors and DC motors.
    2. Add capacitors to the brushes of Pullmor motors in older locomotives and motorized accessories.
    3. Keep your track and pickup rollers clean.
  3. Check the integrity of the locomotive’s antenna
    1. If the antenna is metal handrails, there must be no resistive path between the handrails and the boiler casting.
    2. Verify that the antenna is securely connected to the TMCC receiver board.
    3. Some diesels will benefit from extending the antenna by adding foil tape or just wires.
    4. An antenna inside a closed metal box is blind. If the receiver and antenna are inside a tender shell:

1) Insulate the top part of the tender shell from the frame with tape and connect the antenna to the insulated portion.

2) Poke a hole in the shell and route a section of antenna wire outside the shell.

We must avoid configurations that block out the airborne Track signal by having too much outer rail Track signal. Imagine what would happen if you put your locomotive inside a metal box that was connected to the outer rail. You would have lots of Track signal conducted through the wheels, but there would be not airborne signal on the antenna to cause current to flow back and forth through the input stage of the receiver. This is the situation you create if you have overhead bridges and/or trackside metal structures connected to the outer rails of the track, or many parallel tracks.

Now imagine that we drill a hole in the metal box containing our locomotive, and we insert a wire connected to the earth ground signal. Now the locomotive’s antenna can pick up some of the earth ground signal and create a voltage differential across the receiver’s input. We can pick up the earth ground signal from the center screw on a grounded wall receptacle, a metal water pipe or electrical conduit, or Pin 5 of the 9-pin connector on the back of the Command Base.

  1. Avoid overwhelming the airborne signal with too much conducted Track signal
    1. Do not connect tubular track ties directly to metal bridges with metal mounting screws. Alternatives are nylon screws or using insulating shims and plastic shoulder washers.
    2. Beware of trackside accessories with metal parts that are tied to the layout’s common bus. This will put the conducted Track signal onto the metalwork. One solution is to use a separate transformer and wiring for accessories that are not tied to the track common.
    3. If necessary, add some earth ground antennas in the region where there is too much conducted Track signal. Run a wire connected to earth ground on the underside of the bridge or between the parallel tracks, or string some fine wire as power lines on power poles.
    4. We can temporarily augment the airborne signal by using our body as a secondary antenna, and placing our hand near the locomotive. This brings more earth ground signal to the locomotive. If this helps the locomotive, the permanent fix is to add an earth ground antenna to that area.

Note that this overwhelming is not what we would normally consider to be interference or cancellation. The multiple Track signals are not interfering and reducing anything. They are all adding up quite nicely, too nicely in fact. (There is no “interference” because a wavelength .4 mile long is much too long to create cancellations in a space the size of a layout. We are dealing with a simple imbalance.)

The full article can be read here    http://www.trainfacts.com/trainfacts/?p=317

Thanks, guys.  I am still in the process of double checking my wiring (some of it is about ten years old and my memory has aged even more than that) to locate the affected sections.  One of two parallel wires on the third level (above two levels of four parallel staging tracks) works with only a bare minimum of headlight flashing, while the one parallel to it for about 8 feet seems completely dead to the TMCC signal.  Atlas engines universally start up with sound but no lights and no response to any command from either my CAB-1 or the DCS remote.

Thanks for the info on the signal booster.  I seem to somehow have missed that in the archives.  I will investigate further.

Larry

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Hmm... Didn't I just post that in response to another thread?

Read it fast as I have no idea how long Dale's site will be up, he's been gone for some time.  I'm surprised the site is still up!

Good Point. After reading that I went to the way back machine to make sure it archived the site. It only had some of it, I tried to make sure it had it all.

Add Reply

Post
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×
×